Quote from: One Horse Town;363658Luck.

Boys, boys. At least we kept 1-2 in North America. Now all we have to do is teach the Mexicans to play hockey.

Quote from: Benoist;363656... and Canada WINS.
The Gold is ours, baby!

Well fought, sir.  Hell of a match, hell of a match.  One for the history books.

Quote from: Zachary The First;363675Well fought, sir.  Hell of a match, hell of a match.  One for the history books.

Absolutely. And the US definitely was a worthy opponent. Ryan Miller is one hell of a goalie. My Lord.

Quote from: two_fishes;363640don't worry about it. your obvious idiocy dulls the sting of your words.

I see you haven´t adressed the "fiction" accusation. We must assume we were right in predicitng your frogerised storytelliness.

Quote from: Settembrini;363759I see you haven´t adressed the "fiction" accusation. We must assume we were right in predicitng your frogerised storytelliness.

no, you idiot, you were wrong. i'm just not willing to repeat myself for the benefit of a few assholes. if you had actually read my last few exchanges with David R, it would be obvious that was not my intent with the word fiction at all.

But you DO enjoy the "fiction" of forgerdom! Look at yourself, BURNING FUCKING WHEELS. Artha, my ass.

QuoteI had stumbled across the Forge online and found a group of people in the city trying out a lot of games that came out of there. We played a lot of different games--one-shots and short runs, but also some lengthy runs of Burning Wheel/Empires and Heroquest. Its been great. I also played in a regular D&D 3rd campaign for a couple years--fun overall, but less satisfying and often frustrating.

That´s the idiot´s "fiction" right there in boldface. Oh, and poor little story wanker is frustrated by actual gaming, take this candy.

Quote from: Settembrini;363771Oh, and poor lttle story wanker is frustrated by actual gaming, take this candy.

jesus, what are you, 7 years old?

Quote from: Benoist;363676Ryan Miller is one hell of a goalie. My Lord.

I watched him play at Michigan State. I was at Munn Arena the night he tied the NCAA shut-out record, and he proceeded to break it the next night. He won the Hobey Baker that year, and went to the Sabres organization the next. A very special player.

Bit ironic - Canada, USA, and Finland went gold, silver, and bronze in both men's and women's hockey. The Swedes and the Slovaks will be looking for blood in Sochi.

Quotefictional - fabricated: formed or conceived by the imagination; "a fabricated excuse for his absence"; "a fancied wrong"; "a fictional character"

:idunno:

Quote from: two_fishes;363772jesus, what are you, 7 years old?

That's an insult to the entire 7 year old population.

Quote from: Aos;363831That's an insult to the entire 7 year old population.

To be honest, I imagine everything settembri writes being spoken vith ze ridikyuluss Cherman ahkzent, like the kraftwerk-loving Germans from the Simpsons.

Quote from: two_fishes;363489don't worry, someone's bound to jump on it. but really, i feel vaguely frustrated, like there might be something here, something you're trying to say that i'm simply unable to see.

The difference in intents between narrative and immersive role-playing isn't so much what is the intent, but whose intent.

Let's take the killing the orc example
In a narrative rpg, you are following the intent of the player to make a good story by killing the orc, saving the girl, etc.  You succeed by narrating the fiction the way you want.

In an immersive rpg, you are following the intent of the character to kill the orc because if he doesn't he dies, his town is raided, etc.  The character succeeds by killing the orc.  You succeed because your character has.  This could make for a great story later for the players to talk about.

another analogy:
The 1980 US Hockey team didn't take the ice in Lake Placid in order to create the Miracle on Ice as one of sports greatest stories - life doesn't work that way.  They went out to win the gold medal, and success in that action became one of sports greatest stories.

So if the story is made the way it's made in life - as the organic result of actions, it's immersive.  If the story was constructed as a goal unto itself, it's narrative metagaming.

Quote from: CRKrueger;364239So if the story is made the way it's made in life - as the organic result of actions, it's immersive.  If the story was constructed as a goal unto itself, it's narrative metagaming.

Play-modes aren't mutually exclusive.  If you break out the minis and start deciding what's the best way to act tactically, despite the fact that your character may not think or react the way you're going to make them by 'playing the game.'  The mantra of a lot of old D&D material written by Gygax and other "greats" was "challenge the players."  Well, you really can't do that without pulling the players out of their characters for a bit to metagame (or as Matt Finch put it in the Old School Primer, act as their "guardian angel" by engaging with the challenges presented to you as a player).

Every game has periods where you step out and metagame, and periods where you engage with the character directly in immersive play.  It's just a matter of when it happens and why.

That's a sort of camel's nose argument, and also a bit mistaken.

To begin with, while it's true that calculating decisions in the midst of melee isn't very realistic, it doesn't interrupt the illusion of immersion because frankly, people aren't aware of the falsity of the representation. On the other hand if you're pointing specifically to the use of minis and the god's-eye view they provide, it's felt as an anti-immersive effect by a lot of people, many of whom prefer not to use minis for that reason.

Secondly, challenge the players doesn't really, or necessarily, refer to metagaming at all. It just means that the players will have to figure things out and describe their actions as if they were actually there, instead of relying on skill rolls. If anything the approach is more immersive for that reason. But it's often misunderstood because many roleplayers see their activity today as taking on a made-up persona, while "challenge the players" is more like providing a "verbal holodeck". It's roleplaying in a manner similar to training/evaluation exercises as used in government, the military, and business.