This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.

Author Topic: [4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.  (Read 45672 times)

jeff37923

  • Knight of Common Sense
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16954
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2009, 04:22:20 pm »
Quote from: Spinachcat;279862
4e fucked the hobby because its bringing in unworthy players.   These people never experienced the 80s and without a Mazes & Monsters Jack Chick high school horror story of gamer oppresion to tell, how dare they join our hobby! Fucking posers!  If you didn't play Atari, how could you learn to roleplay?  Everyone knows real gaming ended with 16 bits.  

Even worse, 4e is bringing AD&D players back to RPGs.   Those fucks weren't tough enough to hang in there and stick with it and now they fucking think they can just waltz back into the hobby and be accepted?   Fuck that!  Betrayers keep out!  

And fuck all these people who think D&D's just a game.   These bitches want to play RPGs to have fun?  WTF???  Fuck them for treating it like a game instead of a lifestyle choice.  What is that weak ass shit?  Can you fucking believe that Wizards made 1st level survivable for noobs?  Fucking corporations!  

:)


Another Zealot speaks out against his new religion...

Come back to us, we can deprogram you...

:D

Windjammer

  • Dunning–Kruger Effect
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2009, 04:23:28 pm »
Despite playing 4E (and occasionally liking it) I'm pretty much disappointed with some of its core design tenets. I'm doing my best to counter them in my homebrew 4E, but in doing so I need to rely on previous D&D material.

1. High level monsters have been nerfed to a degree that they utterly destroy dispense of disbelief. At level 35, Graz'zt can teleport for a total of 1 square more than a first level eladrin. Which is 30 foot total. If you recall, in previous editions Graz'zt could hop dimensions in the midst of a fight. Well, here 4E designers decided that they didn't want DMs to handle such heavy handed decisions by themselves - the ruleset takes care of that now. Personally I prefer a ruleset that's designed for self-respecting DMs.

2. The new planes are basically "more of the same" that is the new core material world. WotC eradicated any source of extraplanar danger - from the acid-covered inside of a Dreadnought's stomach (pretty tough if you get swallowed by it) to the power of the underworld river Styx to cause total amnesia to you character if you fail a save roll - and replaced it by a plane's "psychic signature". That's a purely emotional impact on the PCs which (the 4E designers go out of their way or asserting) has NO mechanical impact on the PCs. Imagine if the PCs could experience something truly dangerous, disruptive to their XP accumulation - UN THINK ABLE.

3. WotC designers went too far in their attempt to eradicate "black box" thought processes on the DM's part, where such processes include (for instance) the DM calculating a spell effect where only the final element in a long, long chain of reasoning impacts the game (the spell's damage).
Look at the new 4E Drow module P2 ("Demonqueen's Enclave"), and you'll see a monster ("Shunned") that has an encounter power which is labeled "Spider Surge". According to the power's definition, that power enables the monster to cause a square on the battle field to inflict poison damage on any PC who enters that square (the monster has limited control as to where that square is, i.e. can move the square around).
Compare this to that monster's description in 3E Fiend Folio/Drow of the Underdark: it "can spit spider swarms onto its enemies - goto Monster Manual page 229 for spider swarms". Ok, so I had to look up another book to see how the thing worked, which is clumsy at the game table (and reason number 1 why to shorten such "black box" thought processes on the DM's part - looking up one thing, doing a calculation, looking up another book, and then, a minute later, informing the player of the actual impact on his PC). But at least I knew HOW the monster's attack worked out in-game. As a DM I had a chance to relate the effect in purely narrative terms to my players. If I DM 4E, I can only say to my players "ok, my monster is doing a Spider Surge - watch out, that's 1d6 poisonous damage on you, Ralph". THIS is where I think 4E kills immersion. Its power descriptions - whether the PCs or monsters - are like a Magic the Gathering card: the flavour is just not enough to translate into actual gameplay. In response, 4E supporters tell me "that's for you to make up". Well, guess what, with 1000 nearly identical mechanical effects, it's become impossible to decipher a spell's effect from its mechanics and/or name so that coming up with my own fluff is a futile exercise on random guess work based on nil base material to inspire me. Previously, we had sleep spells, polymorph, etc. whose descriptions and/or names  helped you to translate their effects to the game in narrative terms because they didn't have miles of distance to cover between their narrative and mechanical dimension (<--that Mearls' design constantly creates such distances is his most considerable design weakness in my opinion). Now (in 4E) we got "Riposte Strike" and "Wolf Pack". They are cool names, but hollow. They lack descriptive power. And that, my friends, kills roleplaying at the micro level. Since roleplaying D&D, for me at least, always emerged at the micro level (e.g. how to disarm a trap), that pretty much kills roleplaying in D&D for me.

PS. THe following inspired me to write the final bit.

Quote from: wiseman207;279755

So what does 4e do?  They decide to keep the idea of having complex rules to fiddle with, but throw away the essential piece that made the game a "role-playing game"... the rules actually reflected what was going on in the world!  Now instead of having rules to help a DM through a dilemma (like, handling a wrestling match on a greased tightrope), we have rules just for sake of having them.  Alright, so playing with the game's rules is fun I guess.  Um... yeah.

Wait, I can't even pretend anymore.  Having rules that don't represent anything in the game world is TOTALLY USELESS... because that's what the game rules are supposed to do in the first place... adjudicate elements of chance in the game world!  Cripes!  If I liked rules because they were interesting to tinker with, I'd play a game without a tremendous amount of overhead in time and money... like Monopoly or something.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 04:43:56 pm by Windjammer »
"Role-playing as a hobby always has been (and probably always will be) the demesne of the idle intellectual, as roleplaying requires several of the traits possesed by those with too much time and too much wasted potential."

New to the forum? Please observe our d20 Code of Conduct!


A great RPG blog (not my own)

beejazz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • b
  • Posts: 3190
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2009, 04:58:28 pm »
I used to be ambivalent. Now I just don't care.

I've got two friends who like, want to play, and own 4e. They can't get a game because neither of them wants to DM and all the DMs in my area play 3.5 or Mutants and Masterminds. Occasionally SW Saga edition or D20 modern.

A few of my other friends, whom I play online with, ran a few games when 4e first came out. Then they quietly went back to playing 3.5.

That is the sum total of D&D 4e's impact on my life. Honestly, if the fans in my area decide to run a game and get a group, that might change. I don't see it happening though.

My only criticism of those fans of 4e playing their game and liking it: I haven't met any of you in person.

shalvayez

  • Deviated Septum
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
    • View Profile
    • http://www.myspace.com/abnormallydeceased
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2009, 11:16:34 pm »
I already play WoW. Why would I want a tabletop version?
PRICE CHECK! CLEAN UP AISLE SIX! ROTTED BODY LANDSLIDE!! AND DON'T FORGET OUR SPECIAL SALE ONE EVERY BONE BROKEN CHICKEN! HURRY! ENJOY OUR TASTY HALF-SNOT FACE. AISLE THREE!

Bradford C. Walker

  • M.A.: Liberal Studies
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1816
    • View Profile
    • http://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2009, 03:08:51 am »
Quote from: shalvayez;283173
I already play WoW. Why would I want a tabletop version?

This.

At least I can play WOW solo; I have to have a group to play D&D.  If WOTC wants the Casual Gamer, they have to go all the way and make the game solo-friendly.
Find me on Twitter.
Read my work at Empires Must Fall, Walker's Retreat, Walker's Study and Stabilizing Rifts.
Reavers of the Void, Book One of the Star Knight Saga, is available now on Amazon.

J Arcane

  • Esquire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7790
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bedroomwallpress.com
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2009, 03:46:20 am »
Quote from: shalvayez;283173
I already play WoW. Why would I want a tabletop version?
This was pretty much my main complaint, though I traded WoW for other games a long time ago.

Really though, I'm hated out at this point, I just don't care anymore.  I've been happy with what I've been able to play and read of Dark Heresy, and am quite satisfied at this point to settle back into playing the #2 game, just like I did with WW all those years ago.

The 3e era I will remember fondly as a brief and shining era where there was a D&D I actually liked, but will probably never return.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven's Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

madunkieg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • m
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2009, 05:13:01 am »
My frustration with D&D4e is how it's so solidly adhered to its story formula and its attempts to hide this under the presumption that "roleplaying" around the rules fills any gaps. What's worse, there is within that the suggestion that anything else is of little or no consequence, since the mechanics do not give them weight (strategy, investment, tension, reward, etc.). If the premise of the game was also limited, then I could accept that, but it isn't. It suggests a complete world, but the rules cannot cover 99% of that world or the activities (and story possibilities) in it. You're supposedly an adventurer, but adventuring is about trying new things. D&D4e is about repeating the process of killing and looting over and over. That's really limiting, both as a player and GM. For this reason, I find D&D4e to be the most pretentious game I've come across in a long time.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 05:23:46 am by madunkieg »
Humans should have been assigned a wisdom penalty.

Anon Adderlan

  • Shit Just Got Emu!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2009, 09:04:13 am »
While it's technically possible to play 4e differently, I suspect there isn't enough to it for me to enjoy UNLESS it is played as a tactical miniatures game. So I might choose it over Warhammer, but not over another RPG.

I think the sad thing is that 4e is actually a really good miniatures game, but it isn't being sold on its strengths.

Aos

  • Huge Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7724
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2009, 10:44:00 am »
My girlfriend is not fat.
You are posting in a troll thread.

Metal Earth

Cosmic Tales- Webcomic

Sacrificial Lamb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1908
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2009, 11:22:01 am »
I bought the books, played the game, and then promptly put it back on my shelf where it's been collecting dust ever since. 4e might be the most boring game I've ever played, and at one point that actually made me a little sad. Now I barely even care any more. :( That's a shame, as no edition of D&D should ever be boring...

The Shaman

  • Locked per Request
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1418
    • View Profile
    • http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/le-ballet-de-l-acier
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2009, 11:36:09 am »
Quote from: Aos;283215
My girlfriend is not fat.
Maybe not yet . . .
On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that's far enough...it's a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it's far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse

I have a campaign wiki! Check it out!

ACS / LAF

StormBringer

  • Harbinger of Chaos
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9320
    • View Profile
    • http://www.citadelofchaos.net/forum/index.php
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2009, 12:48:36 pm »
I thought this thread was as dead as the growth in 4e sales.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.'
 - Thomas Paine
'Everything doesn't need to be a brutal education.'
-Cranewings

J Arcane

  • Esquire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7790
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bedroomwallpress.com
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2009, 01:01:49 pm »
Quote from: StormBringer;283238
I thought this thread was as dead as the growth in 4e sales.
My Barnes and Noble stopped carrying 4e corebooks, and filled out their rack with other games instead.  They still get the occasional sourcebook, but that's about it.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven's Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

One Horse Town

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 10203
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2009, 01:11:15 pm »
Quote from: J Arcane;283240
My Barnes and Noble stopped carrying 4e corebooks, and filled out their rack with other games instead.  They still get the occasional sourcebook, but that's about it.


My local bookshop never started stocking them. They've still got 3.5 stuff there along with WW stuff. :confused:

Gronan of Simmerya

  • My member is senior
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8769
    • View Profile
[4e] Give me your best anti-4e vitriol.
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2009, 10:36:42 pm »
Shrug.  No vitriol here.  I just don't care.

Now, what I don't get is why "Burden of proof rests with the affirmative" seems to have vanished; in most pro-4E threads I've seen, the attitude seems to be "Why would you possibly play an earlier edition" rather than "Here are all the things that will make 4E more fun than what you're doing now."

That said, I still drive my 1999 Ford Escort and have no plans to replace it.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.