In the 4E campaign I'm currently playing in (the other one kinda faded away), we have spent the last three weekends hacking through a single combat or a pair of fights. This is mostly due to the lack of decisiveness of the other players but the system surely isn't helping things along.

Again - NO vitriol on my part.

 Last Saturday there were TWO Dungeons & Dragons groups playing at the store. One of them was 4th edition bunch and one was 3.5 - they didn't have any fights and they all laughed at the same sorts of puns hearing banter from the other group. (Okay, so the 3.5 was actually a "Pathfinder" group - they still were using 3.5 books on the table)

- Ed C.

The itch that gets scratched by D&D4 I get in a better all-around fashion from WOW.  What I want from D&D is what I got when I started, which D&D4 cannot do but previous editions can, including 3.5, and that's the practical implementation of my attitude.  Hell, right now I'm hacking together a set of rules--a tinker's feast of hacks, cracks and whacks--to get me exactly the flavor I want; some d20 as a cornerstone, some BECMI for flavor, etc. and combined I have a Walker's Own D&D that includes a bit of Classic Traveller influences.  (No, no intention of publishing it; this is My D&D.)

The “WoW” like snarks don’t make much sense at all.

We should have a "RPGs we Hate and don't play" sub forum.

Quote from: Aos;283363We should have a "RPGs we Hate and don't play" sub forum.

//www.indie-rpgs.com surely?

Quote from: CavScout;283359The "WoW" like snarks don't make much sense at all.

The "Naruto" like snarks are much better.

Quote from: Balbinus;283380//www.indie-rpgs.com surely?

Winner!

Me? I believe WoW is a poor comparsion. Defense of the Ancients is much better.

I probably can't provide anything that hasn't been said here or elsewhere but the problems of 4e are many. First, and foremost of those, is the issue of balance. 4e is certainly balanced but that balance is so extreme and narrowly focused that it is a detriment to the game. Every time I play 4e there is a moment when I am reminded of Vonnegut's story Harrison Bergeron. Its as if the Handicapper-General designed this game- players just don't shine in different situations. Instead they all do the same mundane things within a small arc of differentiation that leaves little room for shining in any giving situation. When everyone has the same effectiveness as everyone else the implementation of class loses any meaning beyond flavor.

Concomitant with this balance, is the implementaion of the unified advancement mechanic. With the focus on balance, advancement had to be tied to a singular tree of advancement from which little if any deviation could be made. So we end up with characters who do the relatively the same thing, the same amount of times, and at basically the same amount of power. I'm sorry but this is boring to me, and I imagine it is to many others as well.

Given this focus on balance, I find the game was made for those whiners who grew up getting trophies even when they lost the game. That is, the game is geared towards the egalitarian ideal of equality that wants all kids to feel like winners in all situations, thus every character  can now do everything within a small arc of differentiation. Perhaps I am an old grognard, but this is not the type of game world I wish to play in. I'd rather play with differences- play the wizard that trades off physical prowess for limited but powerful spellcraft, play the fighter whose martial prowess is unequalled by any other class, etc.... 4e takes away the differences that were meaningful to character and replaced them with a singular mundane mechanic that creates one character- the hero that is like every other hero. And it does so in the name of balance for all those whiny punks that couldn't stand one moment of being unequal to another player. Perhaps the biggest travesty of 4e is that it appeals to those players most role-players hated playing with in the first place. Or maybe it is a godsend as now those players have their own game and will no longer be haunting the games I wish to play.  

There are many problems with 4e that demand a certain level of vitriolic comment, but balance, in the way 4e attains it, is the one that I find causes me most heartburn. Thus I will leave this post at that.

It attracts a lot of love by those who don't take the interpretation of people who hate the rules seriously.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283486It attracts a lot of love by those who don't take the interpretation of people who hate the rules seriously.

That's positively Guygaxian!

To explain, people who hate the rules are people who believe 4e enforces the rules as written and you can't do anything outside the rules.

As many of these people seem to be the same people who favour 'Rulings, not rules', the result is intense irony.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283524To explain, people who hate the rules are people who believe 4e enforces the rules as written and you can't do anything outside the rules.

As many of these people seem to be the same people who favour 'Rulings, not rules', the result is intense irony.

I've always snickered at the claim that they dislike 4E because it lacks "strong" non-combat resolution mechanics.... of course they ignore the utter lack of the same in the old school editions they heap praise on. Or how it is (4E) to combat focused while ignoring that combat rules were the core of the old school games as well.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283524To explain, people who hate the rules are people who believe 4e enforces the rules as written and you can't do anything outside the rules.

As many of these people seem to be the same people who favour 'Rulings, not rules', the result is intense irony.

Quote from: CavScout;283529I've always snickered at the claim that they dislike 4E because it lacks "strong" non-combat resolution mechanics.... of course they ignore the utter lack of the same in the old school editions they heap praise on. Or how it is (4E) to combat focused while ignoring that combat rules were the core of the old school games as well.

I've never seen either of these comments made about 4e. Who says this? Name names.