Don't underestimate the idea that some people are perfectly content to download product torrents from the internet without ever having spent a dime. I don't agree with the OP assertion that young kids are just dying to spend money to acquire stuff to validate their existence, when there is an option (albeit illegal) to obtain the same thing for free.

One of the biggest problems I see with trying to produce and sell retro clone products are that there are too many options. OSRIC, LL, S&W and then you get into the new games that label themselves as old school. If you could get all the people playing those many variations and get them to all play only one system, then there might be a decent, sustainable market. Right now, it's en vogue to clone old out of print games and people are scrambling to clone all kinds of obscure games, further cluttering the landscape and fragmenting the customer base. Sure, lots of options are great, but there comes a point in time when it becomes counter productive.

Lastly, exactly what kind of product do people want from their clone? My guess is that they don't want much, just a simple core book. One thing that leads people to older versions is the notion of getting away from the current splatbook mentality of many new games. So the idea of producing all kinds of stuff for older editions isn't really a great business move because people don't actually want much other than a basic core book.

Quote from: GoOrange;330549Don't underestimate the idea that some people are perfectly content to download product torrents from the internet without ever having spent a dime. I don't agree with the OP assertion that young kids are just dying to spend money to acquire stuff to validate their existence, when there is an option (albeit illegal) to obtain the same thing for free.

I know people like that, and they have one thing in common: they collect, but don't use.

(Of course, this does not mean those who buy do.)

Quote from: Melan;330553I know people like that, and they have one thing in common: they collect, but don't use.

(Of course, this does not mean those who buy do.)

On a similar tangent, the people I know who are into pirated software and other "warez", frequently just collect all that stuff for the sake of collecting and bragging.  They use very little of the "warez" they acquire and collect.

QuoteIt seems that with the OSR we have a supply being produced before there was a demand. Or, perhaps more accurately, the true demand/desire was of the guy who wanted to make a buck off of making an old school D&D module.

Making a buck and furthering an industry was very low on the totem pole - and I suspect still is. Folks don't play the same game for 20 or 30 years because they're hoping in the back of their mind to eventually start their own game company. It's a hobby. And like many other hobbies, it has undergone a resurgence in interest. Like every other hobbyist, I don't game for the industry. I do it entirely for my own pleasure and (sometimes) that of other hobbyists.

Another important difference between the OSR and the industry, is that it was started by guys who wanted to give something away for free and be able to continue to do that freely. After decades of buying or refusing to buy unwanted product from an industry bent on profit, those gamers decided to make the stuff themselves and give it away. And there are still plenty of people creating free/at cost product just for the love of it. In many cases, this stuff is better and more carefully crafted than the things specifically made for sale. Kind of like how a kitbashed railroad diorama in some guys basement will often kick the shit out what you could buy in a hobbyshop.

So, if you want to do an accurate market survey of the OSR scene then you'd better start to consider everything and not just unrepresentative sales figures. Or why not just go bother the Traveller people or the Runequest people with the whole 'I don't get it, you're not making money' B$.

Quote from: GoOrange;330549One of the biggest problems I see with trying to produce and sell retro clone products are that there are too many options.

I think this is the core of the problem. Especially as it doesn't seem to me that the mechanical differences between the games would be that great.

Seanchai

Put it this way:

1. I've heard good things about Vampire, so I go buy the book(and slightly later the base World of Darkness book I didn't know I needed), grab some friends and play.

2. I've heard good things about Shadowrun, so I go buy the book, grab some friends, and play.

3. I've heard good things about Traveller, so I go buy the book, grab some friends, and play.

I say this from the point of view of someone who primarily plays one game, but is open to playing different games from time to time on the side.

This sort of scenario with OSR games requires at least one extra step, like finding out what the difference between the games are, dealing with Lulu or PDFs instead of an actual book, ect. It might not be much, but its more than games with an established identity and easy entry. As I'm looking more for a quick fix, this little bit of hassle makes me much more likely to look elsewhere.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;330567Put it this way:

1. I've heard good things about Vampire, so I go buy the book(and slightly later the base World of Darkness book I didn't know I needed), grab some friends and play.

2. I've heard good things about Shadowrun, so I go buy the book, grab some friends, and play.

3. I've heard good things about Traveller, so I go buy the book, grab some friends, and play.

I say this from the point of view of someone who primarily plays one game, but is open to playing different games from time to time on the side.

This sort of scenario with OSR games requires at least one extra step, like finding out what the difference between the games are, dealing with Lulu or PDFs instead of an actual book, ect. It might not be much, but its more than games with an established identity and easy entry. As I'm looking more for a quick fix, this little bit of hassle makes me much more likely to look elsewhere.

Just had a funny thought.  you know how when you go to the drugstore and see the generic drugs sitting next to the name brand stuff, and on the label of the generic drug it says "compare to the active ingredients of brand name x".  I wonder if we can do the same with clones?  

Quote from: ggroy;330543The only prominent OSR stuff I've seen on the shelves at FLGS, are the "Advanced Adventures" OSRIC modules by Expeditious Retreat Press.  These are FLGS which cater to the hardcore gamer crowd, where they regularly stock a lot of 3pp and other non-WotC titles.

Supposedly, we are going to start seeing Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry being sold through FLGS sometime in 2010.   It will be interesting to see how that affects the OSR.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;330569Just had a funny thought.  you know how when you go to the drugstore and see the generic drugs sitting next to the name brand stuff, and on the label of the generic drug it says "compare to the active ingredients of brand name x".  I wonder if we can do the same with clones?  

I see lots of "Fair Use" discussions and in the US, there doesn't seem to be a real barrier to saying "For Use with..." but in the print products I have seen say "For Use with the Original Fantasy Roleplaying Game" or other such verbiage that avoids the use of a big TM name.

For a small publisher, it makes sense to me.   Most everyone who plays OSR games knows what they are referring to and the publisher gets to avoid any legal hassle.