Quote from: Fiasco;329731But Paizo's products are primarily adventure paths and the rules set won't limit the number or creativity of the output.

That used to be their business. Along with map tiles, etc..

Think about it: If all they wanted to do is keep 3.5 in print so they could sell adventures, they could have reprinted the SRD in hardback a la the Pocket Player's Guide.

Instead, we have altered core rules, bestiaries, GameMastery Guides, advanced players handbooks, world books, et al.. Oh, an an RPGA-like group and their own rules license.


Also, how many adventures does the average group need? One per group every two months?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;329742Also, how many adventures does the average group need? One per group every two months?

They may possibly run into adventure path fatigue and subsequent declining sales.  A sign of this happening is when they start to release their adventure path books bimonthly, instead of the present monthly rate of release.

Can anyone explain to me why, exactly, the AP model is so successful?

I was thinking about this the other day, and it strikes me as rather railroad-y. An AP seems to be just about the direct opposite of a sandbox game; you've got the plot and all that fun jazz, from start to finish, figured out from the get go.

Sure, a good DM could modify things and bring in character histories and perhaps give the players a bit of room to do their own things... but in the hands of a bad or even average DM, it seems like it would just be one very, very long railroad.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;329749Can anyone explain to me why, exactly, the AP model is so successful?

I was thinking about this the other day, and it strikes me as rather railroad-y. An AP seems to be just about the direct opposite of a sandbox game; you've got the plot and all that fun jazz, from start to finish, figured out from the get go.

Sure, a good DM could modify things and bring in character histories and perhaps give the players a bit of room to do their own things... but in the hands of a bad or even average DM, it seems like it would just be one very, very long railroad.

It's sort of similar to the metaplot thing. A fair number of people buy these as if they were novels and think about running them, rather than actually running them. (Which doesn't mean they're useless for actual play or anything.)

Quote from: GnomeWorks;329749Can anyone explain to me why, exactly, the AP model is so successful?

At the present time, nobody knows for sure whether the AP model is actually successful to being with.  Only Paizo's management has access to the actual sales numbers and know for sure.

Who knows?  Maybe the Paizo online shop has so far been subsidizing the Pathfinder development all this time?

Another question is how many former Dungeon print magazine subscribers, are today buying the Pathfinder APs each month.

Quote from: Thanlis;329750It's sort of similar to the metaplot thing. A fair number of people buy these as if they were novels and think about running them, rather than actually running them. (Which doesn't mean they're useless for actual play or anything.)

I wouldn't compare APs to metaplots, though. With a metaplot, at least IMO/E, there are signs pointing to something deeper going on for awhile before you finally break out and deal with it.

Whereas in an AP, you're dealing with the undercurrent of the campaign the whole time. Especially if you know you're in an AP.

I'm a player in one of Paizo's APs on Sundays, and this thought occurs to me often. The DM is pretty good about bringing in our backstories, and letting characters explore overcoming their personal demons, but at times it still feels very constrained.

Quote from: Benoist;329346Oops. Sorry.

Fuck off, Fifth.

Eh, close enough.

APs work if the players buy into the railroading before play begins. They have to accept the fact that they are playing an AP, and they WILL be railroaded. If you have that agreement, they don't run that bad.

Not my cup of tea, but there it is.

As for Paizo, they seem to be very good at customer relations, and building a modest core of rabid fans. I'd be curious to see the ratio between APs sold and APs actually played.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;329851APs work if the players buy into the railroading before play begins. They have to accept the fact that they are playing an AP, and they WILL be railroaded. If you have that agreement, they don't run that bad.

Fair enough. It still strikes me as weird that a seemingly large number of folk would be down with that sort of thing.

QuoteAs for Paizo, they seem to be very good at customer relations, and building a modest core of rabid fans.

I think this statement revokes your right to be offended when someone refers to the 4e crowd as rabid, or any other such derogatory term.

Just a head's up.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;329853I think this statement revokes your right to be offended when someone refers to the 4e crowd as rabid, or any other such derogatory term.

Just a head's up.

I damn near choked on my coffee when I read that piece of gold by casualoblivion.

Casual, this is self awareness, I don't believe you have met before

While I am personally very keen on sandbox play I am currently in a Pathfinder campaign with the DM running an AP modified for his campaign world and having a great time with it. Mind you, it was hot the the heels of our aborted 4E campaign running Keep on the Shadowfell so maybe its just overly flattered by the comparion.

As an aside, does anyone else think that WOTC really dropped the ball with their introductory module to 4E?  APs may be railroady but they are nothing like the massive plot hammer that beats you constantly over the head while playing the early stages of KoS.

I've got a gelatenous cube in my pants. Somebody call Bill Cosby.

I am so misunderstood.

Quote from: Thanlis;329750It's sort of similar to the metaplot thing. A fair number of people buy these as if they were novels and think about running them, rather than actually running them. (Which doesn't mean they're useless for actual play or anything.)

That's spot on. A substantial number of Paizo's customers buy adventure paths (AP) without actually running them. Ever.

For one, there's only so much time you have; you can't run more than one AP at a time, and that takes a huge amount of time, say two years (a factor only exacerbated by running several of them in tandem). While you run one AP, Paizo envisages you've already bought another four. And guess what, that's what some customers are doing.
For another, there's a substantial number of ex-players out there who'd love to DM if only they had a group. These people enjoy reading Paizo product because they are well written and well produced (they really put their dollars into their art budget, no doubt about it) - qualities that enhance people's reading experience as they imagine to DM or play as PCs in these modules, fully aware that they'll never get the benefit of the actual play experience.

And yes, the fact that Paizo modules are designed to enable that imaginary experience is detrimental to some other factors in module design. A lot of author-envisaged scenes in the module don't transition over to live game tables easily at all, and I personally get all the RAGE at the time I have to spend to make some of these modules work at my table at all. None of this stops me to recognize some top nodge adventure locations and NPC write-ups in the modules. So while the whole may be lesser than the parts, there's pure gold to be had in the parts and which make for good inspirational read whether you are a real or self-imagined DM.

Speaking of "the whole"... An adventure path softcover clocks in at 96 pages, only half of which are spent on the actual adventure (gasp). You also get short fiction, a bestiary, some campaign world background, and some extra rules bits (e.g. on djinn wishes) besides. In short, there's a lot of variety on offer, and this contributes to the commercial success of the softcovers. Whenever someone who actively runs a module gets vocal about the fact that 40% in the book are less than useful for running it (short fiction?!), James Jacobs says that the fiction will stay in the product to guarantee commercial success. As much as I personally dislike that response, there's little to argue with it at the level of factual truth.

Finally, for Paizo to remain commercially successful, all they have to do is to keep their extant number of customers, not the very same customers they have. And that number is quite small compared to WotC. If anything, having their own RPG now and their own organized play format (Pathfinder Society) guarantees that that number will be kept over the next 5-10 years. What impact the new RPG and the increase in organized play will have on extant module design remains to be seen. I thought the first module offering for Pathfinder RPG (a 1st level intro adventure by Bulmahn) was pretty solid, if hardly innovative.

PS. A peripheral remark on how I personally purchase Paizo adventure paths. Paizo alternates between conservative and innovative adventure paths, so I resolved to only buy the innovative ones. They started with Rise of the Runelords, which was solid if clichê. Next came Crimson Throne, the best so far. Then the drow one, abysmal. Then Legacy of Fire, innovative. Currently Thieves Council, solid but conservative (it's meant to herald the PF RPG era anyway, so what would you expect). Next is Kingsmakers, the first AP that will break some of the core design strictures of previous adventure paths (e.g. with respect to meta-plot). See? Boring-innovative-boring-innovative-boring-innovative... Buying 1 AP per year is not a strain on your budget as much as buying 2 per year is. So there you go.

Quote from: Fiasco;329860As an aside, does anyone else think that WOTC really dropped the ball with their introductory module to 4E?  APs may be railroady but they are nothing like the massive plot hammer that beats you constantly over the head while playing the early stages of KoS.

Oh yeah.  I've never played a worse module than the crap that is Keep on the Shadowfell.  I'm sure that a lot of the ill feelings that people have for 4e is mainly due to how bad that adventure is.

Quote from: Seanchai;329742Also, how many adventures does the average group need? One per group every two months?

How many splat books does the average group need?