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Author Topic: 4E, Flexibility, and Entitlement  (Read 26989 times)

Hairfoot

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4E, Flexibility, and Entitlement
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2009, 08:57:13 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326366
At this point 4E's overwhelming success is pretty much self-evident.

Really?  I haven't been back to check, but wasn't it you who went through half a thread repeating that statement while finding a million and one reasons to justify not providing the sales figures that you don't have, because no-one has them?

WotC boosterism and teen fanboy chatter =/= "overwhelming success".

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2009, 09:03:14 AM »
Quote from: mhensley;326371
I think the flexibility of earlier editions is overrated.  All versions of D&D are lousy for emulating anything other than D&D.  


I agree with this anyhow. The sole exception for a d20 game that really did a good job (in my experience anyhow) would be Mutants and Masterminds, which I think is great.
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mhensley

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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:21 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326376
I agree with this anyhow. The sole exception for a d20 game that really did a good job (in my experience anyhow) would be Mutants and Masterminds, which I think is great.


And 4e would do a much better job at doing a superhero game than it does at doing fantasy.

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4E, Flexibility, and Entitlement
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:35 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326366
(4E's) target audience is D&D players, not cranky fringe dwellers or senior citizens. It's doing very well.


Oh, so fringe dwellers or senior citizents don't play D&D?

I think all those weird folk and persons pushing 60 I saw playing at Conventions where an hallucination after all...
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Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 09:11:41 AM »
Quote from: Hairfoot;326375
Really?  I haven't been back to check, but wasn't it you who went through half a thread repeating that statement while finding a million and one reasons to justify not providing the sales figures that you don't have, because no-one has them?

WotC boosterism and teen fanboy chatter =/= "overwhelming success".


Well, nobody does have them. All we have are things like Amazon bestseller lists. Koltar used to post his distributor newsletter reports from the Game shop but I haven't looked at those lately either.  '

In any case, it isn't sales figures that are important. I mean who cares about how well any game is selling? The only thing that matters is how many people actually play, and the reason that matters is that represents  potential players you could possibly game with. In that regard.. I feel pretty comfortable.  

Everything else is just howling at the moon.
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mhensley

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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 09:14:47 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326383
Well, nobody does have them. All we have are things like Amazon bestseller lists.

You mean the one that still shows Pathfinder as being the #1 seller?

Hairfoot

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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 09:22:56 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326383
In any case, it isn't sales figures that are important. I mean who cares about how well any game is selling? The only thing that matters is how many people actually play

I typed and deleted three responses to this before giving up.  You're right.  Sales figures in no way represent the popularity of a product.

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 09:32:02 AM »
Quote from: mhensley;326387
You mean the one that still shows Pathfinder as being the #1 seller?


There's no doubt that Pathfinder was /is a big seller. All this means to me is more people playing D&D, which is great.
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Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 09:37:38 AM »
Quote from: Hairfoot;326390
I typed and deleted three responses to this before giving up.  You're right.  Sales figures in no way represent the popularity of a product.


Don't misunderstand me: Sales figures do represent the popularity of a product. They are the only direct way to look at it. But what I said is "they aren't important". In other words: What does it matter to YOU what sells or doesn't sell to someone else? These arguments are all about someone feeling like they are "in" or "out" of something or book ownership or cranky dudes muttering to themselves on the internet or whatever. Completely unimportant.

The only thing that really matters though is how many people are playing (not buying). Because that represents the network of participants in the real world activity that you could conceivably connect to.
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Hairfoot

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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2009, 09:42:02 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326398
Don't misunderstand me: Sales figures do represent the popularity of a product. They are the only direct way to look at it. But what I said is "they aren't important". In other words: What does it matter to YOU what sells or doesn't sell to someone else? These arguments are all about someone feeling like they are "in" or "out" of something or book ownership or cranky dudes muttering to themselves on the internet or whatever. Completely unimportant.

The only thing that really matters though is how many people are playing (not buying). Because that represents the network of participants in the real world activity that you could conceivably connect to.

Ah, then I stake my claim that Cyborg Commando is currently the world's most popular RPG.

thecasualoblivion

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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2009, 09:44:45 AM »
People tend to be self centered in their perceptions of the gaming world. The whole "it can't be popular if I don't like it" thing.
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Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2009, 09:47:05 AM »
Quote from: Hairfoot;326399
Ah, then I stake my claim that Cyborg Commando is currently the world's most popular RPG.


Fits in pretty good with your other opinions, really. ;)
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Thanlis

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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2009, 09:47:21 AM »
Quote from: mhensley;326387
You mean the one that still shows Pathfinder as being the #1 seller?


Same ones that show 4e outselling everything but Pathfinder (on a per SKU basis) more than a year after launch, yeah.

The GTM list is here; it also shows Pathfinder on top this month, with Adventurer's Vault 2 outselling the Shadowrun 20th Anniversary book. I can't draw any conclusions from AV2 vs. Srun, since one's an equipment book and one isn't really a new edition as far as I know. I am in no way surprised Pathfinder won the month.

... interesting that the new D&D mini set outsold AV2. I wonder if AV2 just had relatively bad sales? It's not that good a book, really.

Also, this article. It obviously predates Pathfinder, but then again, we're not arguing about how well Pathfinder's doing. (You may be wanting to argue that, but it wasn't the original statement.) It does say, very clearly, that "the gap between Dungeons and Dragons and the rest [is] growing."

Fortunately there's room for both Pathfinder and 4e to be a success.

Windjammer

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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2009, 09:49:16 AM »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;326398
The only thing that really matters though is how many people are playing (not buying). Because that represents the network of participants in the real world activity that you could conceivably connect to.


Just talking about Living FR, I think they would have the means to generate 100% accurate statistical analysis on the ratio of new players they get per month (and the ratio of players which drops off the radar of registering for regular sessions), and the number of total active players at a time. After all, people register for their LFR membership, and they/their DMs register every session.

If you have access to such figures, I'd be interested to hear them. My completely uninformed impression is that 4E has gathered a solid number of active supporters - but that its rate of getting new players on board has lessened after its first year of release (pretty natural phenomenon on any mainstream game anyway, if you ask me). So I'm curious. Even if you don't have statistics, I'd be interested in hearing your personal impressions.

Unless I remember incorrectly, the RPGA had a huge influx of new players around 2000/2001, but then numbers waned. So the introduction of a new edition gives them a boost, but a short-lived one before things went to where they were before (numbers-wise).
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Thanlis

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« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2009, 09:54:06 AM »
Quote from: Windjammer;326405
Just talking about Living FR, I think they would have the means to generate 100% accurate statistical analysis on the ratio of new players they get per month (and the ratio of players which drops off the radar of registering for regular sessions), and the number of total active players at a time. After all, people register for their LFR membership, and they/their DMs register every session.

If you have access to such figures, I'd be interested to hear them. My completely uninformed impression is that 4E has gathered a solid number of active supporters - but that its rate of getting new players on board has lessened after its first year of release (pretty natural phenomenon on any mainstream game anyway, if you ask me). So I'm curious. Even if you don't have statistics, I'd be interested in hearing your personal impressions.

Unless I remember incorrectly, the RPGA had a huge influx of new players around 2000/2001, but then numbers waned. So the introduction of a new edition gives them a boost, but a short-lived one before things went to where they were before (numbers-wise).


Yeah, they presumably have great LFR numbers. I wish they'd share them. They have said that it's the most popular organized play program they've ever had, which means it's beating LG at its height.

That surprises me a lot -- I don't think 4e is outselling 3.0's best year. But they did something right when it comes to organized play. Possibly the Forgotten Realms are more of a draw than I'd like to think.

Let me just head the assholes off at the pass here, by the way. Hasbro is a publicly traded company. Among other things, that means that it is an immensely bad idea to lie about numbers. Yes, including participation in your programs. You can say "we're very pleased with our sales" while your sales are tanking, because that's a statement of opinion. But you can't lie about numbers without opening yourself up to lawsuits.