So now learning the core concepts of oral storytelling, a tradition that has been central to the human race since language was created is somehow bad?

Wow.

Quote from: Soylent Green;321652The Forge is a roleplaying game design forum for small, independent rpgs. Because of it's focus on innovation and the tendency of some of its members to use big words and lots of jargon the Forge is often accused of arrogance and pretention, which apparently is the one unforgivable crime, go figure.

Typical attempts to understate the real problem, which at this point should come as no surprise.  I'm guessing RPGnetter at least, correct?

Quote from: B.T.What's all this about THE FORGE, and why is the aforementioned FORGE bad?

The Forge is a website whose core theory basically states that everything about every game made in the last 30 years is wrong, and bad, and that people who play them are brain damaged, and that those who run them are basically child molestors.  Ironically these same people then make games about Mormon's lynching adulterers, pirates neckraping cabin boys, and I'm seriously not making this up, an actual game about killing puppies for Satan.

Despite the utterly abominable core belief and message, and the laughably poor construction of the theories surrounding it (all of which, predictably, boil down to "Our games are good, everyone else is badwrongfun"), the appeal of a pseudointellectual take on the RPG has nevertheless persisted with people who want to hear big important words like "art" and "theory" and "transgressive" in relation to things they like, because they think talking about them like that will make them grown up and other people think they are grown up.

Said people usually find the site by accident or, I'm ashamed to admit, through discussions like this, skim the surface of the discussion without really bothering to analyze it or read deeper into the body of work, and so assume it to be some grand intellectual pursuit, and eager to be associated with such a thing, leap in with both feet without stopping to look what muck they're diving into.  

Next thing you know, they're marching from site to site spouting party line, and defending from all comers that which cannot be defended, and doing their best to ingratiate themselves to moderators and positions of authority, in order to ensure that any criticism of their badly conceived and deeply offensive theory is generally silenced.  For example, on RPGnet, at one point, Ron Edwards' own words about the "brain damage" were banned from discussion under the argument that bringing them up made him look bad and thus constituted an attack on his person.  Again, seriously not making any of this up.

It's a laughable, disgusting, and deeply offensive cult, but one with a remarkable amount of dedication and political cunning, which has thereby gained a level of influence in some spheres of this hobby that is absolutely staggering given how few actual faithful exist and how few of their games actually sell in any remotely appreciable amount.  

Long story short is, though, that you'd probably be better off having never known about them.  As would the rest of the RPG hobby.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321655So now learning the core concepts of oral storytelling, a tradition that has been central to the human race since language was created is somehow bad?

Wow.

Also, a single chapter in a book published well over a year after the game was released is evidence that the "Swine" have taken over D&D.

For some the definition of swine is "anyone who plays differently than I."
I am intrigued more by the possibilities of the terrain section and the rules on removing magic items from the game than I am the storytelling stuff, however. I think I will likely buy this supplement.

Hang on... what does this have to do with the forge anyway? The chapter excerpt, those terms, all of this sounds very "Lawsian" to me. Unless Robin Laws is a Forgeite... is he? :idunno: I wouldn't have a clue, because I've never visited the Forge site, just heard about it, mainly here actually.

But if he isn't, it's just more Laws, is my bet. See HeroQuest (the RPG) for examples of what I mean by that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321655So now learning the core concepts of oral storytelling, a tradition that has been central to the human race since language was created is somehow bad?

Being storyteller i.e. looking at your players and tell them a story is only one of the many skills of a RPG referee. And not a very important part. More important being able to vividly describe locales. Being able act as a particular NPCs. And above all act as an impartial referee.

Elements of creating a story can help in creating a plot for a particular RPG campaign. It can help in creating interesting NPCs. However it doesn't help actually running a game.

Because DM doesn't TELL a player what their characters are doing. He adjudicates or referees what they are doing. This is why we call D&D a GAME not a novel. You can have roleplaying without a game it called theater. They even can make up as they which is improvisational theater. But it doesn't make what they do a RPG.

RPG is a new form of entertainment that not quite like any of it's predecessors. Over emphasizing one aspect in favor another results in a poor experience in playing a RPG.

Which is why a supplement is the perfect place for this sort of thing.

Quote from: Aos;321706Which is why a supplement is the perfect place for this sort of thing.

It's not a supplement.  DMG2 is a core book, remember?

Quote from: estar;321705RPG is a new form of entertainment that not quite like any of it's predecessors. Over emphasizing one aspect in favor another results in a poor experience in playing a RPG.

Given that this is a single chapter in the second DMG, can you really argue that it's being overemphasized? As you say, it is one skill of being a DM. So seeing it in a DMG is hardly surprising. Looking at the table of contents it's clearly not the sole focus of the book.

Quote from: mhensley;321711It's not a supplement.  DMG2 is a core book, remember?

It's a supplement in that it's not one of the "original three". "Core" in 4E marketing parlance has a different meaning than the one you're using here.

Quote from: mhensley;321711It's not a supplement.  DMG2 is a core book, remember?

I like 4e. I am completely unmoved by what a book says on its cover. Contents are all that interest me- and even then, only so far as they are of use to me.

Quote from: paris80;321702Hang on... what does this have to do with the forge anyway? The chapter excerpt, those terms, all of this sounds very "Lawsian" to me. Unless Robin Laws is a Forgeite... is he? :idunno: I wouldn't have a clue, because I've never visited the Forge site, just heard about it, mainly here actually.

But if he isn't, it's just more Laws, is my bet. See HeroQuest (the RPG) for examples of what I mean by that.

You're correct. The idea that the Forge has taken over D&D is hyperbolic, and Robin Laws is not a member of the Forge.

Quote from: Fifth Element;321714It's a supplement in that it's not one of the "original three". "Core" in 4E marketing parlance has a different meaning than the one you're using here.

The whole core/ supplement thing seems a bit shaky. If you need a book to get a significant part of the D&D World, e.g. Monks or some of the older classes in PHB2, surely it's Core - unless you're going to let significant parts of the original fall by the wayside?

Quote from: Diavilo;321744The whole core/ supplement thing seems a bit shaky. If you need a book to get a significant part of the D&D World, e.g. Monks or some of the older classes in PHB2, surely it's Core - unless you're going to let significant parts of the original fall by the wayside?

It's all about what you consider "a significant part of the D&D world". I could easily do without superpowered monks.

Quote from: J Arcane;321594People, even 4e haters, didn't listen to me when I told them Mearls had taken the D&D boat up the Forge creek without a paddle, and now look what you all get.

It saddens me too that it'll still get eaten up like candy.

Apparently the Swine really did win.  They took the biggest game of all.  All the more resign to consign it to 2e levels of irrelevance.

I find myself eerily parroting JArcane.

BUT: The advice brought forth in the DMG2 is also ipartially found in the 2e DMG!