Quote from: Diavilo;321744The whole core/ supplement thing seems a bit shaky. If you need a book to get a significant part of the D&D World, e.g. Monks or some of the older classes in PHB2, surely it's Core - unless you're going to let significant parts of the original fall by the wayside?

All books beyond the initial 3 are simultaneously core (meaning acceptable and integrated) and optional (meaning unnecesary).

All books beyond the PHB are optional for anyone but the DM.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321741You're correct. The idea that the Forge has taken over D&D is hyperbolic, and Robin Laws is not a member of the Forge.

In fact, Robin's ideas more or less fly in the face of the Forge's dominant theoretical framework.

In brief, for those that didn't already know, both Robin and the Forge start from the fairly uncontroversial assertion that different people what different things out of games. Both of them proceed to classify different types of things that people want from games in ways, although the Forge asserts that its categories are comprehensive in a way which Robin simply doesn't for his categories. But the real difference, the big forking of the road, is that Robin believes that people should work out a way to accommodate as many of the participant's tastes as possible, whereas the Forge concentrates on designing games which cater to as specific a subset of the categories as possible to try to make sure everyone's aiming for the same type of fun.

Quote from: Warthur;321791In fact, Robin's ideas more or less fly in the face of the Forge's dominant theoretical framework.

In brief, for those that didn't already know, both Robin and the Forge start from the fairly uncontroversial assertion that different people what different things out of games. Both of them proceed to classify different types of things that people want from games in ways, although the Forge asserts that its categories are comprehensive in a way which Robin simply doesn't for his categories. But the real difference, the big forking of the road, is that Robin believes that people should work out a way to accommodate as many of the participant's tastes as possible, whereas the Forge concentrates on designing games which cater to as specific a subset of the categories as possible to try to make sure everyone's aiming for the same type of fun.

Robin beleives in promoting synthesis and inclusivity as much as possible, when player wants and needs diverge. The Forge is mostly based around promoting Sorcerer.

Hey AM!

Don´t tell me you don´t get 2e-era vibes from that announcement.

And don´t tell me "collaborative creation of background and in game facts" isn´t Forger stuff.

It´s the "best" of BOTH worlds: Storytelling AND Storygaming. PLUS: tactical illusinism and railroading.

What a splendid game!

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321746It's all about what you consider "a significant part of the D&D world". I could easily do without superpowered monks.

You're right, they're less than essential. Distant attachment to AD&D 1e Monk who lived in hardship and poverty to eventually be able to lightly slap something once a week.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321655So now learning the core concepts of oral storytelling, a tradition that has been central to the human race since language was created is somehow bad?

Wow.

The Forge's concept of "story" has fuck all to do with real Story as it has been used as "central to the human race". That would be Myth, which is something that the pretentious post-modernists at the Forge reject.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321741You're correct. The idea that the Forge has taken over D&D is hyperbolic, and Robin Laws is not a member of the Forge.

Dude, they already took over with PHB1.  Just because you LIKE their little perfect gamist experiment, doesn't make it any less what it is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321820The Forge's concept of "story" has fuck all to do with real Story as it has been used as "central to the human race". That would be Myth, which is something that the pretentious post-modernists at the Forge reject.

RPGPundit

Thank you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321820The Forge's concept of "story" has fuck all to do with real Story as it has been used as "central to the human race". That would be Myth, which is something that the pretentious post-modernists at the Forge reject.

RPGPundit

That´s only part of the ugly truth. The truth is, that Ron Edwards has the firm believe, founded in the pseudo-science evolutionary psychology, that the longing and capability for "Story" (= his interpretation-> petit bourgois moral conundrums) is ingrained into our BRAINS by evolution. The rest is history.
If anybody still knows where to find the original B-D thread, he´ll say it right there.

EDIT. Edwards is not even a post-modernist. That´s giving him too much credit. It´s pure and simple biological determinism.

New Information about the contents of DMG2:

QuoteWe know the following crunch will be in this book:
* Rules for removing magic items from the game
* Rules for giving the PCs sidekicks and followers
* An adventure town, ala Fallcrest. This time it's going to be Sigil.
* Monster templates and NPC class templates
* More kill challenge stuff
* New artifacts

The stuff on Sigil will include a lot of fluff as well as crunch.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321820The Forge's concept of "story" has fuck all to do with real Story as it has been used as "central to the human race". That would be Myth, which is something that the pretentious post-modernists at the Forge reject.

RPGPundit

I reject Joseph Campbell's ideas about myth for reasons I address in this here thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=12368&highlight=myth

I have no idea if my ideas align with the forgies, nor do I give a rat's ass.

Quote from: Settembrini;321801Hey AM!

Don´t tell me you don´t get 2e-era vibes from that announcement.

And don´t tell me "collaborative creation of background and in game facts" isn´t Forger stuff.

It´s the "best" of BOTH worlds: Storytelling AND Storygaming. PLUS: tactical illusinism and railroading.

What a splendid game!

Group brainstorming predates the Forge by many years- people do it in comics, in art, in music, and yes, campaign design. However, what the forge did was really about formalizing and formula-izing that creative process, (or taking that process itself and calling it a "game", which it isn't).  

They really kinda made it suck, but collaborative creativity and group brainstorming has been with us since the dawn of rpgs. The world of Greyhawk itself is an example.

Quote from: J Arcane;321822Dude, they already took over with PHB1.  Just because you LIKE their little perfect gamist experiment, doesn't make it any less what it is.

I don't need to pretend to strip the Forge influence out of something to enjoy it. I've tried several Forge games that I openly admit I enjoy, even though I disagree with the ideas underlying the Forge.

D&D 4e simply isn't a Forge game. As Warthur points out, one of the more important beliefs of Forge theory is that different playstyles should not mix with one another (or else the game will be "incoherent" which is bad somehow). The D&D 4e DMG advocates just the opposite - trying to please many different kinds of players at once.

Quote from: Settembrini;321829That´s only part of the ugly truth. The truth is, that Ron Edwards has the firm believe, founded in the pseudo-science evolutionary psychology, that the longing and capability for "Story" (= his interpretation-> petit bourgois moral conundrums) is ingrained into our BRAINS by evolution. The rest is history.
If anybody still knows where to find the original B-D thread, he´ll say it right there.

EDIT. Edwards is not even a post-modernist. That´s giving him too much credit. It´s pure and simple biological determinism.

This is, BTW, one major point on which Sett and I are in total agreement. Ron Edwards is a pseudointellectual using opinions gleaned from a pseudoscience to give the veneer of intellectual depth to his nonsense (a "trompe l'oeil" theory).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321847As Warthur points out, one of the more important beliefs of Forge theory is that different playstyles should not mix with one another (or else the game will be "incoherent" which is bad somehow).

I came to that same conclusion back in 1990. Radically different playstyles in one group leads to one or the other being unhappy with the way things happen, sometimes both.