Quote from: AlnagMy current view of 4E is that it indeed has deep gulp of "Ronnishness" in it. Which might not be as bad per se, but somehow I expect great yet short boom followed by quick disillusionment and than 5E. I feel somewhat alienated by this outcome already although I am going to try it anyway.

That's the problem with creating obsessive micro-games in the Forge style. If that's what 4e ends up being (an utterly "gamist" exercise in intentionally blocking out other styles of play because that's what the designers have come to believe D&D is "supposed" to be), then just like any of the crappy forge games, no one will be interested in it for more than a few sessions.  Maybe a few more than a typical Forge game, because at least the topic isn't some piece of artsy-fartsy boring-as-hell bullshit; and maybe a few more still just because its "D&D" (allegedly). But after that? People will start dropping it like flies.  

The WoW fans will still find that WoW is better for what they want.
Anyone who doesn't think of themselves as a "gamist" will leave it very quickly.
The online support will collapse because it will suck compared WoW, and none of its other features will make it worth the monthly fee.
And finally, even people who think of themselves as "gamists" will leave it, because NO ONE IS ACTUALLY JUST "gamist" or any of the other categories of GNS, because, and here's the really important part that Mearls seems to have forgotten: GNS IS MADE UP BULLSHIT.

So I don't know if that will mean 5e will come along quickly; but I am willing to put hard money into Hasbro making some massive overhauls (not necessarily good ones from the point of view of our hobby) within 1-2 years of the release (and subsequent disappointing results) of 4e.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AlnagMy current view of 4E is that it indeed has deep gulp of "Ronnishness" in it. Which might not be as bad per se, but somehow I expect great yet short boom followed by quick disillusionment and than 5E. I feel somewhat alienated by this outcome already although I am going to try it anyway.

I expect an inordinate amount of errata and clarification being required, then 4.5E. :rolleyes:

Quote from: WarthurI wonder if this isn't a position lots of people will take. 4E sounds like the sort of game which could potentially be very polarising: people who like all the D&D features and tropes junked will reflexively scurry back to AD&D 1E and B/X and OD&D as a reaction to that, whereas people keen on reengineering the D&D system will seize on 4E as the next bold step, and look down on 3E as a poor, sad hybrid, trying to be innovative whilst at the same time clutching to elements which were jettisoned with 4E.

Oh, I agree this is very likely. The company that will really clean up in the wake of the tectonic shift into crapulence that will be 4e is not the one that makes the best 3e clone. It will be whoever can produce a truly large-scale old-school Basic/1e D&D clone.
4e is going to relate to 3e in the sense that for half of those truly fanatical 3e-maniacs (maybe more than half) it will still be similar enough that will just play 4e, and for the other half (well, likely less than half) they will just keep on playing 3e with what they've got.
Whereas if you're not a 3e-fanboy as much as a D&D fanboy, 4e represents a final breach; a game that is no longer anything like that original game you identified with as D&D. So the argument (that you could still just barely make with 3e) that it was a more modern mechanical innovation that justified playing will no longer apply, and since 3e is going to be as dead a system as any of the others, they will flock to whatever game will come closest to giving them the real feeling of OLD D&D.

I only wish that Clash had a few Gs to put into promoting FtA!

RPGPundit

Quote from: WarthurI wonder if this isn't a position lots of people will take. 4E sounds like the sort of game which could potentially be very polarising.

Agreed. Well written indeed. I must admit, that I like 3E although I am bit tired with it lately. I wouldn't mind innovation actually (I like things from SW Saga Ed.) but somehow 4E is not the innovation I like (in general, there might a bits I like). So I am actually more looking forward to Pathfinder. I don't know how rest of the 3e people are but I feel Pathfinder to be more true to the traditon yet somewhat innovative and interesting than for 4e. And I still somehow can not belive that I am saying this. I really hoped 4e will be good, but more I see the worse it looks like.

Quote from: WarthurIf the 3.X grognards really want their edition to survive, they need to take a good look at it and give a compelling argument that it can provide something which simply isn't supported to the same extent in 4E or in earlier editions. So far, I'm not sure that I've seen that.

My answer here might be similar as Pundit's. I like (in general) what 3.X generation offers. Lot of freedom, easy yet complex system and wide variety of game. It is modern with traditional feeling. I don't like previous and probably nor following editions. I still don't mind innovation inside of 3e though. I am grognard? Don't know. Do I need 3e to survive. I doubt it. I really heaven't played D&D in long term manner for three years now. I play other D20 games though. And I see their relation to 3e. And I am really pissed that 4e will kill those and take their stuff...

Quote from: RPGPunditsince 3e is going to be as dead a system as any of the others, they will flock to whatever game will come closest to giving them the real feeling of OLD D&D.

RPGPundit

My tentative vote goes to the new Hackmaster edition.

An argument for playing 3.x instead of 4.0?  

How about this- they already have a bookcase full of books and don't see the need to buy more.

Of course some people won't care about monetary considerations, but I could see a lot of DMs being happy to stick the with books they've already invested in if they're enjoying the game.

Of course going back to older versions, this isn't much of an issue.  You can pick up copies of the B/X for a few dollars on amazon, or Labyrnith Lord for free.  AD&D books are readily available and cheap as well.

Quote from: WarthurOnce 4E comes out, the D20 Haven and Pathfinder crowd had better take a good look at it and try to come up with an answer to the question "Why play 3E rather than AD&D, B/X, BECMI, OD&D or 4E?" The guys on Dragonsfoot can doubtless provide a bunch of arguments as to why they prefer the approach in the various versions of D&D they cover; the 4E fans will probably have their own views on the subject. If the 3.X grognards really want their edition to survive, they need to take a good look at it and give a compelling argument that it can provide something which simply isn't supported to the same extent in 4E or in earlier editions. So far, I'm not sure that I've seen that.

I'm not sure why this is really necessary or helpful.

I do feel that fans of obscure games get the benefit of pimping their games... because they have an audience that may not have heard of their game and happen to want what it has to offer. Few people aren't aware of what 3e are that have any interest in it. At best, I can see a little anti-defamation against smack talk (of which there is plenty).

But the likes of dragonsfoot? That's just a mutual backpatting club that I imagine convinces anyone of anything other than convincing themselves of their own superiority.

I've already put forth what I like about it over on d20haven, but I don't expect that to convince anyone who isn't looking for the same thing.

On the fanbases of games being fragmented due to an excess of editions...

Quote from: Kyle Aaroncf Traveller.

All I can say is damn straight.

I tell a lie: there's more that I can say. Let's take a look at the development of Traveller and see if we can draw some parallels...

So, you had Classic Traveller, and you had some third party products from that developed via licensing. It sold insane numbers (would you believe over 100,000 copies of the core rules, in various formats? The statistics are all there in the Far Future Enterprises reprints...).

Then you had Megatraveller, which at its heart was essentially a compilation and rationalisation of the Classic Traveller rules (like the AD&D to CT's OD&D). I don't have sales figures for it, but it seemed to be big enough to attract some third party support, and it had a computer game made out of it back when it was reasonably rare for non-D&D RPGs to get such games. (Come to think of it, it's still somewhat rare). Looks like a successful edition-shift to me: certainly, I'm not aware of any major controversies in the Traveller fandom over the change.

Ah, but then we get to Traveller: the New Era. Radically different system, major changes to the basic assumptions of the setting. Fan outrage, no third-party support that I'm aware of. Then GDW died and there was no in-print version of Traveller for a while.

Then you have T4, which didn't really take off (lots of people found it badly-edited, and didn't like the tweaks to the CT/MT system), but at least got third-party support (BITS started up in this era, for example).

But then, oh man, it gets confusing. With no in-print version of Traveller extant, Miller gives the nod to SJG to make GURPS Traveller, which is pretty successful - GURPS fans like it, Traveller fans who didn't like the Imperium breaking up in MT like it, fair enough.

But then there's T20... and there's HERO Traveller... and there's the reprint series from FFE... and there's the LBB reprint from those guys... and we've got T5 coming down the pipe from Mr Miller... and Mongoose are going to bring out MongTrav soon (perhaps - their release schedule is looking awfully attenuated, with some supplements now four months behind the initial release date; they claim the core book is coming out this month, but I'll believe it when I see it in stores).

The problem with Traveller, then, as I see it:

1: Numerous extant editions, all of which get to use the "Traveller" trademark for maximum recognisability, directly competing against one another (especially with the core books: I could see people using a few T20 supplements in GURPS Traveller, but not the core book).

2: Two periods (one, after TNE, pretty extensive as I recall) during which there was no in-print edition of Traveller at all, with the upshot that the core fanbase has become accustomed to using old rules with no current products supporting them. Once you get into the groove of doing that, it's much easier to simply ignore the current edition and plough on regardless.

3: Two distinct visions of the "official" Traveller, T5 and MongTrav, being developed at the same time, pretty much guaranteeing a split even in the hard core who prefer CT-derived systems.

So, how much of this applies to D&D? Point 2 doesn't apply; D&D has never been unavailable in stores. Nor does 3. The closest is 1; even though the D&D trademark isn't shared, I'm sure most people who follow gaming know that "OGL" often translates to "D20/D&D". The disadvantage that D&D has is that it has even more old "official" editions than Traveller has - especially when you consider that D&D never had a widely-rejected edition like TNE.

Quote from: RPGPunditOh, I agree this is very likely. The company that will really clean up in the wake of the tectonic shift into crapulence that will be 4e is not the one that makes the best 3e clone. It will be whoever can produce a truly large-scale old-school Basic/1e D&D clone.

Screw that noise. When a lamer edition of D&D comes out, people will go looking for something that isn't D&D. Like back when White Wolf was all big and shit. I'm looking for some third party science fiction competitor.

Quote4e is going to relate to 3e in the sense that for half of those truly fanatical 3e-maniacs (maybe more than half) it will still be similar enough that will just play 4e, and for the other half (well, likely less than half) they will just keep on playing 3e with what they've got.

Know any uber-fans of 3e? I assure you, they're not particularly happy about some of these developments either. I know all of one guy who's planning on switching right away, and he's the guy that runs the super high-level games, so I figure he's got an excuse.


Anyway, I don't think 4e will fail or anything, but I think 3x has at least a couple years yet before it fades out as much as the other systems have.

As for the OP... yes. A bunch of designers got together and decided "hey, let's make a shitty game that no one will play, and force everybody to buy it." Then they spent... what? six years and a couple thousand dollars to develop it? wurst conspiracy evar.

Quote from: WarthurThe problem I foresee is that as more and more editions exist, the die-hard crowd gets more and more fragmented.

Whereas with fewer editions the ageing fanbase continues to stagnate, to the point where even considering a new version is tantamount to heresy.

cf. Palladium

Quote from: beejazzAs for the OP... yes. A bunch of designers got together and decided "hey, let's make a shitty game that no one will play, and force everybody to buy it." Then they spent... what? six years and a couple thousand dollars to develop it? wurst conspiracy evar.

Yep, I agree.  Worst  Tin-Foil conspiracy ever.

I predict that 4E will be very successful and prove Sett and the Pundit wrong.

I could be wrong, but it does have the D&D name attached to it and that makes a great deal of difference.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityMy tentative vote goes to the new Hackmaster edition.

I think Kenzer is shooting themselves in the foot in an even bigger way then before: you see, their new edition, they've already stated, is NOT going to be based on D&D.  So just at the moment where they could have made the game that everyone who feels 4e isn't D&D could have flocked to, they're saying "no, we're going to create our own house system that has fuck all to do with D&D".

Idiots.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI think Kenzer is shooting themselves in the foot in an even bigger way then before: you see, their new edition, they've already stated, is NOT going to be based on D&D.  So just at the moment where they could have made the game that everyone who feels 4e isn't D&D could have flocked to, they're saying "no, we're going to create our own house system that has fuck all to do with D&D".

Idiots.

RPGPundit

I have to agree.  Paizo is smart enough to create something that could attact those people who feel 4E is not for them and Kenzer should have followed that example.

But you have to remember, most game companies are run by gamers and not businessmen.

To what extent has this been Kenzer's choice, though? Thanks to The Great CD-ROM Debacle they had a very special license, and that expired. No?

And now they're speculating there might yet be sufficient interest in a non-D&D fantasy RPG with high production values, professional editing and rock solid playtests. I'm not going to call them fools for that.

Quote from: Warthur2: Two periods (one, after TNE, pretty extensive as I recall) during which there was no in-print edition of Traveller at all, with the upshot that the core fanbase has become accustomed to using old rules with no current products supporting them. Once you get into the groove of doing that, it's much easier to simply ignore the current edition and plough on regardless.

The TNE to T4 one wasn't actually that long.  The last new TNE product was released in '95, (GDW officially collapsed early the next year, but released no products that I know of for any of their lines after '95), and the first T4 product came out in '96.

T4 to GT was even shorter, with T4 stopping publication in '98 and GT starting publication the same year.

That said: yes, it's horribly fragmented.  The Mongoose and T5 split is making things even more confusing for people, given that the information on just how similar the two are is muddled to put it mildly.

Then again, I also don't expect to see an official release of T5 anytime soon.  (Unless I'm wrong and they actually hit the Mar. 31st release date for the PDF/CD that they have listed on their website.)