I really don't... I've a very high survivability rate in my games.

Admittedly, it happens the odd time. I mean, 'Are you really sure you want to do that?'. Mixed with constant player stupidity what can you do? Like the time one PC wanted to attack a proto Shoggoth in CoC. I really tried to convince him it was a very bad idea (everyone else got the hint).

But generally, I don't allow people to die for banal reasons. Like fighting against a brown bear or falling off a ledge. I'd really like a good reason for a PC to die (like in a movie). Self-sacrifice or dying while trying to kill off the big bad, etc.

That said, I always put them through the meat grinder. That is to say, they get beaten black and blue constantly, but not killed off per se. So, they always feel like they are in danger even though they are probably not.

Thoughts? Seems to be quite a divisive issue when I've chatted with people before. I'm not saying that I'm right, but it's just the way I like to GM. Maybe, I'm just too soft.

Added:

Actually, I forgot to mention. I had joined a Sabbat game many years ago (it was my first and best introduction to VtM). The group were all really good mates and serious RPers. The notion of the GM killing off character was a total ‘no go’. The PCs were so invested that if the GM had killed one of them off it would have resulted in blows being thrown at the table and mates probably never speaking to one and other again. I’d never seen anything like it. But it was the best campaign I’ve ever played to this day…

First statement, if people are having fun, there is no problem.

Second statement, death does not have to be the fail-state (Ghostbusters RPG, for instance, pretty much does not plan for a situation where the characters can die. Even falling off a skyscraper you are expected to somehow survive). As long as players are challenged, and they can experience both failure and loss, than you have achieved the majority of what death does for the game.

"That said, I always put them through the meat grinder. That is to say, they get beaten black and blue constantly, but not killed off per se."

Beaten black and blue matters exactly as much as that has any real effect. Beaten to an inch of their life (but will never go beyond that)? Means nothing. Beaten unconscious and wake up in a jail cell, awaiting trial, have to talk their way out of it, oh and now their girlfriend is dating the guy who beat them up? Meaningful.

"So, they always feel like they are in danger even though they are probably not."

At this point, I have to ask if you're being honest with yourself about this? Do you honestly think that your players have not figured this out? If they are still reacting as though they are afraid of death, it is likely because they want to (or, as I said above, you have been giving them the potential for failure and loss, even if it isn't death).

Again, if everyone is fine with the status quo, rock your bad selves out. But trying to con the players into believing that their characters are at risk for their lives when you are incapable of following through is not a long term strategy.

Player character death is pretty rare in my campaigns also. Character creation in our system results in a very detailed character and losing one is usually not fun. So the rules allow for a lot of very effective healing and the chance of survival below zero and then being healed is high. This high-casualty/low-fatality system results in a meat-grinder, as you say, with very rare character death. When it does happen, it is a significant event. No one has thrown hands or broken up a friendship about it, though.

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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218159/Glory-Road-Roleplay-Core-Rules

Fighting against a brown bear and falling off a ledge are banal ways to die?

:confused:

Quote from: Dumarest;981674Fighting against a brown bear and falling off a ledge are banal ways to die?

:confused:

Well, not if you do them at the same time I suppose.

Quote from: Dumarest;981674Fighting against a brown bear and falling off a ledge are banal ways to die?

:confused:

When there's dragons and cyborg demons and ancient cosmic dark knights it sure as heck is!  Banality is all relative though.  

"He had slain countless enemies of the Kingdom of Light, saving millions in the process.  But in the end he didn't brush his teeth often enough, and atherosclerosis set in from oral bacteria that entered his blood-stream, causing his heart to fail.  So remember adventurers: always brush your teeth!"
"Fuck you.  We have a cleric."
"Oh, well, right then."

I don't LIKE killing PCs either, but I'm not going to fudge things to save them, because I hate that as a Player... I need to know perma-death is on the table.
I'll leave a group if I sense the GM is pulling their punches.

There was a thread a dragonsfoot (IIRC) a few years ago about a Dad who was DMing his kids. He didn't kill any characters, instead they were beaten up or captured (and allowed to escape). Soon, his son caught on to the fact and whenever he was in a difficult situation, his son would say "I feint". He'd get captured, escape and be as good as new in no time.

Killing PCs is for the benefit of PCs, not for the DM.  As a player, as soon as I realize that my DM is pulling his punches, the game loses 100% of it's excitement and fun.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;981682Killing PCs is for the benefit of PCs, not for the DM.  As a player, as soon as I realize that my DM is pulling his punches, the game loses 100% of it's excitement and fun.

I feel the same way, but not everyone does.  I've actually see people declare in print that the referee does not have "permission" to kill their PC.

Death is not necessary, but there MUST be a "lose state," such that the player knows they have lost.  And it must be something the PLAYER wishes to avoid; never mind what the CHARACTER wishes to avoid.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667Thoughts?

Remember, you asked.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667Mixed with constant player stupidity what can you do?

Oh hell, I dunno, let them learn from their mistakes, mebbe?

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667I'd really like a good reason for a PC to die (like in a movie).

The thing I enjoy most about roleplaying games is how they are not like most movies. Unpredictability is a virtue.

And some of my favorite movies throw this convention out the window anyway.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667So, they always feel like they are in danger even though they are probably not.

I doubt anyone ever really feels like their characters are in danger, because they''re not.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667Maybe, I'm just too soft.

Probably. And too wedded to the notion that a roleplaying games should ape predictable fiction formulas.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667The PCs were so invested that if the GM had killed one of them off it would have resulted in blows being thrown at the table and mates probably never speaking to one and other again.

What a bunch of fucking losers.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667Thoughts?

Remember, you asked.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;981678Well, not if you do them at the same time I suppose.

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667The PCs were so invested that if the GM had killed one of them off it would have resulted in blows being thrown at the table and mates probably never speaking to one and other again. I'd never seen anything like it. But it was the best campaign I've ever played to this day...

Quote from: Black Vulmea;981688What a bunch of fucking losers.

Pretty much, yeah.  "Grow the fuck up" also comes to mind.

And the fact that OP lauds this as "the best campaign I've ever played" makes all kinds of alarm bells sound.

Combined with the contempt the OP obviously feels for his players "constant player stupidity" what we have here looks pretty much to be Yet Still Another Frustrated Author.

Go write a fucking book.

What if the player is OK with their character losing or dying because they think it makes a more dramatic story?

Or should they always try to win?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;981691What if the player is OK with their character losing or dying because they think it makes a more dramatic story?

Or should they always try to win?

If a player is OK with dying as part of a more dramatic story, chances are a dramatic story -is- the win condition for them.  

Personally, I don't get the whole "I play D&D to -win-" mentality.  Seems like video games would be a better option, except I guess that arguing with World of Warcraft won't get you a "do over".

Quote from: san dee jota;981696If a player is OK with dying as part of a more dramatic story, chances are a dramatic story -is- the win condition for them.  

Personally, I don't get the whole "I play D&D to -win-" mentality.  Seems like video games would be a better option, except I guess that arguing with World of Warcraft won't get you a "do over".

Why? Certainly it is easier for the game-challenge types to get what they are looking for with a computer game than it is for the story-building types, but that's not a particular reason for the game-challenge people to go exclusively towards computers.