Quote from: san dee jota;981696If a player is OK with dying as part of a more dramatic story, chances are a dramatic story -is- the win condition for them.  

Personally, I don't get the whole "I play D&D to -win-" mentality.  Seems like video games would be a better option, except I guess that arguing with World of Warcraft won't get you a "do over".

If the game leads me into a combat, damn right I want to win.

So, do you play D&D to lose?

See, I can say stupid shit too.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;981701Why? Certainly it is easier for the game-challenge types to get what they are looking for with a computer game than it is for the story-building types, but that's not a particular reason for the game-challenge people to go exclusively towards computers.

Actually, if you're a wargamer, computers suck.  Human opponents are infinitely more interesting.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981667I really don't... I've a very high survivability rate in my games.

Admittedly, it happens the odd time. I mean, 'Are you really sure you want to do that?'. Mixed with constant player stupidity what can you do? Like the time one PC wanted to attack a proto Shoggoth in CoC. I really tried to convince him it was a very bad idea (everyone else got the hint).

Sounds like the player got tired of the complete lack of peril in the game and was pushing back against your attempts to always tell them the safe action to take.

QuoteBut generally, I don't allow people to die for banal reasons. Like fighting against a brown bear or falling off a ledge.

If you consider brown bears and high ledges to be banal, why even make them a factor in your game in the first place?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;981705Actually, if you're a wargamer, computers suck.  Human opponents are infinitely more interesting.

Oh god yes. I meant human opponents in a computerized wargame, I thought that's what san dee jota was talking about. Obviously you won't have the breadth of possibilities as if you have a DM who can arbitrate if you decide to do something completely outside of the game-rules, but at least a computer can actually run something akin to a wargame. Computer-assisted story-development games are still back in their stone age (at best, maybe you can have a couple of different endings based on your choices, or whatever).

Quote from: Simlasa;981680I don't LIKE killing PCs either, but I'm not going to fudge things to save them, because I hate that as a Player... I need to know perma-death is on the table.
I'll leave a group if I sense the GM is pulling their punches.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;981682There was a thread a dragonsfoot (IIRC) a few years ago about a Dad who was DMing his kids. He didn't kill any characters, instead they were beaten up or captured (and allowed to escape). Soon, his son caught on to the fact and whenever he was in a difficult situation, his son would say "I feint". He'd get captured, escape and be as good as new in no time.

Killing PCs is for the benefit of PCs, not for the DM.  As a player, as soon as I realize that my DM is pulling his punches, the game loses 100% of it's excitement and fun.

I agree with both of you, you take death off the table and pull your punches and to me it is like cheating. About the same as the ref using loaded a loaded d20 the only rolls ones when the monsters are attacking.

Interesting... There's a lot I have to reply too.

Some very fair points made so far! So cheers for those...

One or two that I really shouldn't have to reply to (because of common sense and all) but I will.

I sympathize, I really do.  I am a GM who is a fan of the PCs.  I also feel like it is my primary duty to facilitate the group in having fun - friends, snacks, jokes and gaming. I have, at times in the past, sucked at killing off PCs because it felt at odds with my roles as PC advocate and fun facilitator.  I am, by nature, a soft GM (I feel like I am in some kind of GMs anonymous group here).  I admit it. I have been where you are at, or near to it.

However, I am here to tell you to toughen up, separate your job from your bias, and let them die.  Everybody's experience will benefit from the understanding that actions have consequences, the feeling of control that this brings to your players, the suspension of disbelief, and credibility that your world will gain. I have learned that even the most whiny Disney-princesses do not enjoy a thing given nearly as much as thing earned.  If you save your PCs from your world then your world will lose all credibility in the eyes of your players - and eventually so will you.

Quote from: Baulderstone;981706Sounds like the player got tired of the complete lack of peril in the game and was pushing back against your attempts to always tell them the safe action to take.



If you consider brown bears and high ledges to be banal, why even make them a factor in your game in the first place?

I'll take the poorer points first.

A) 'Sounds like' isn't fact though is it? He was as thick as a whale omelet and hadn't got any clue when it came to RPing. In fact, I had him gunned down the next session as he killed a CIA agent (for no particular reason other than the guy lipped off to him). As you do... when playing Delta Green. I'd only ever played with him a few times so didn't know shit about how I GM'd.

B) What? Brown Bears and ledges? Sorry, have you not heard of the RPing game Bears and Leges?? Where you constantly have to fight off Brown Bears and watch yourself falling? Sound right up your alley. Sorry, I don't generally have BB and ledges in my games. It's not a constant by any means. I was of course using, wait for it... Just using it as an 'example'. Don't take it too literally...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;981704If the game leads me into a combat, damn right I want to win.

So, do you play D&D to lose?

Oh for fucks sake....

Are you seriously saying D&D is just about combat?  Because you sure sound like it to me.  And if all you want is combat there are better options than D&D.  What the hell is somebody who plays to win at D&D hoping to win when there is no win in D&D?  "Yay!  You outsmarted your DM by min-maxing your character and getting lucky in a game of craps!"  May as well flip a coin and go home if that's all you want.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;981704See, I can say stupid shit too.

Hey, how's that book on the early days of D&D coming along?  How many years is it now?  No, I understand.  You're -really- busy.  But be sure to keep up with views you hold in contempt, because that's so fucking productive.

Quote from: Dumarest;981674Fighting against a brown bear and falling off a ledge are banal ways to die?

:confused:

Do I really need to answer this?

We are talking Role-playing games and not Bear Grills, right?

Quote from: san dee jota;981696If a player is OK with dying as part of a more dramatic story, chances are a dramatic story -is- the win condition for them.  

Personally, I don't get the whole "I play D&D to -win-" mentality.  Seems like video games would be a better option, except I guess that arguing with World of Warcraft won't get you a "do over".

Story? You mean "what we tell people about the game we played"? Because games are not dramatic fiction.

People are free to enjoy whatever sort of pretend-time they like, but without rules and win-loss conditions, it's not a game.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;981723Story? You mean "what we tell people about the game we played"? Because games are not dramatic fiction.

People are free to enjoy whatever sort of pretend-time they like, but without rules and win-loss conditions, it's not a game.

Believe it or not, I get that.  But what's the win condition of D&D?

Quote from: san dee jota;981679When there's dragons and cyborg demons and ancient cosmic dark knights it sure as heck is!  Banality is all relative though.  

"He had slain countless enemies of the Kingdom of Light, saving millions in the process.  But in the end he didn't brush his teeth often enough, and atherosclerosis set in from oral bacteria that entered his blood-stream, causing his heart to fail.  So remember adventurers: always brush your teeth!"
"Fuck you.  We have a cleric."
"Oh, well, right then."

Thank you... Sums it up.

Quote from: san dee jota;981724Believe it or not, I get that.  But what's the win condition of D&D?

To do well. To excel. To succeed where previously you have failed.

Quote from: The Exploited.;981721Do I really need to answer this?

We are talking Role-playing games and not Bear Grills, right?

But that's at the heart of the issue: the (I think silly) notion that a PC's death "should" only happen when "dramatic" or "makes sense in the story" or similar. It's rooted in a play-style that seeks to emulate the structure and outcomes of literature or film: acts, story arcs, etc.

It also tends to reflect the opinion that somehow RPGs are fundamentally different from any other game: if you make poor decisions and roll poorly in a boardgame, you lose. If you make poor decisions and roll poorly in an RPG, you should fudge those rolls, pull some punches, and otherwise let things slide so that "the story" "feels right".

That's fine if everyone wants to spend their pretend-time together that way, but it's not how I prefer to play my elf-games. Death is a consequence/loss condition for a character who makes poor decisions and/or is unlucky in games where that is a loss condition. If people don't like that, they should play games where that isn't a loss condition.