Quote from: Bill;576078Might have been an early version of 4E with encounter powers?

Suposedly ToB:Bo9S was part the 4e prototype codenamed "Orcus", but then Mearls had it scrapped and we got the 4e we all know and loathe. ToB manuvers are diffrent in that it's possible to recover expended manuvers in combat.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;576062I don't see investment in one's character as being a product of character generation, but rather it is the result of having played the character through numerous adventures.

I'm fine with that too. Lots of old school gamers feel that way. I think that's not a general feeling with the gaming population though. I suspect that most gamers actually feel it's a function of both character generation and actual play, things like choosing a class and a style for the character, giving him a name at character generation, those kinds of things, and then playing that character in the actual campaign.

So unless you're saying that people who come up with more than a bunch of stats on the character sheet at chargen, but give their characters a personality, likes and dislikes, a name, those kinds of things, are doing it wrong somehow, I think we can say that for most people it's not the function of one or the other but a mixture of both.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;576062I don't see how anyone can become invested simply by throwing together a few feats and skill ranks. I know that it happens...but I can't fathom HOW it happens.

Well I can see how you can look at the feats and wonder what would best represent the character you have in mind, and how looking through character options could give you some ideas to take the character in different directions, not necessarily the optimal one mind you, but just going "hey that's cool". I was playing a Dwarf Fighter like this in a D&D game that discussed cosmology with the elves of the group regularly. I came up with an ancient dwarven mythology about the "Machine and the Mother" and how the dwarves had been pushed to live underground and solely worship the Machine in ages past. My character evolved and took some Druid levels later on. Not something I had planned in advance, but it's just how he got role played. If the 3rd ed rules did not allow for this kind of character development, I might not have gone there, I do not know. I think that it helped me craft the character I wanted to role play bit by bit, though.

Declan, or should i say Shazbot79, why have you created a new account to go 'full retard'?

I await with baited breath.

Quote from: One Horse Town;576337Declan, or should i say Shazbot79, why have you created a new account to go 'full retard'?

I await with baited breath.

I thought so.

Quote from: One Horse Town;576337Declan, or should i say Shazbot79, why have you created a new account to go 'full retard'?

I await with baited breath.

Interesting. Let's hear the explanation...

I created an account to go full retard.

Quote from: Me;574603You know what. From now on, I'm just going to assume you're trolling. I would prefer to think you're a masterful Poe trying to discredit the anti-3e folks than think that you are actually laying out the contents of your warped and defective mind for all to read. Keep on trolling asshole.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;576453I created an account to go full retard.

Called it.

As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

One more time.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;576453I created an account to go full retard.

Ben seems to think otherwise.

Quote from: Benoist;575420I'm making neither one of those claims, actually. He is not posting completely acceptable posts, since his style is obviously insulting and abrasive (which I've pointed out just above, if you've been following), but neither is he *just* gushing bile.

I know you've got a hard on for me and are going about your little private crusade, but please, actually read the posts before you go on building your imaginary arguments, okay?

Quote from: Benoist;575503To be fair, Declan has specifically stated he was not saying that 3rd ed was making people assholes (see OP of related thread). That's what people thought he said, but that's not what he actually said, and he said so explicitly there.

Quote from: Benoist;575471I don't think Declan is trolling as much as he's saying what he thinks in totally extremely, in your face, "fuck you" style. Now I know some of you have definitely made the determination that he's a troll. Well so be it. I don't think he is, or not in the way you think he is, in any case. Just like I don't think that MGuy sets out to being a troll by the way, though his head is so far up his ass as being virtually unable to have any conversation about 3rd ed in good faith.

Benoist, you my friend have been Poe'd

One more time.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;576453I created an account to go full retard.

Ben seems to think otherwise.

Quote from: Benoist;575420I'm making neither one of those claims, actually. He is not posting completely acceptable posts, since his style is obviously insulting and abrasive (which I've pointed out just above, if you've been following), but neither is he *just* gushing bile.

I know you've got a hard on for me and are going about your little private crusade, but please, actually read the posts before you go on building your imaginary arguments, okay?

Quote from: Benoist;575503To be fair, Declan has specifically stated he was not saying that 3rd ed was making people assholes (see OP of related thread). That's what people thought he said, but that's not what he actually said, and he said so explicitly there.

Quote from: Benoist;575471I don't think Declan is trolling as much as he's saying what he thinks in totally extremely, in your face, "fuck you" style. Now I know some of you have definitely made the determination that he's a troll. Well so be it. I don't think he is, or not in the way you think he is, in any case. Just like I don't think that MGuy sets out to being a troll by the way, though his head is so far up his ass as being virtually unable to have any conversation about 3rd ed in good faith.

Benoist, you my friend have been Poe'd

Tried to tell Benoist earlier, but he just wouldn't listen.

Yup. I stand corrected.

Sockpuppetry is a bannable offense on this site, and Declan/shazbot basically admitted here he wanted to go "full retard", admitting to the charges without the shred of an excuse, quite the contrary, actually.

Henceforth, it's a ban.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;576464Benoist, you my friend have been Poe'd

Benoist (as shown in the OP) basically agreed with what Declan was saying.

People online tend to give unconditional passes to those who agree with them, and automatically assume the very worse of those who don't. It takes someone rather exceptional IME to not fall into that trap.

Benoist wasn't exceptional. Some others here were however, and that gives one hope.

Oh and Lord Mistborn? I'm grateful you deleted your last post. Try to spam the thread by posting the same message again "one more time" (sic) and I ban you too. I'm not joking.

Quote from: gleichman;576470Benoist (as shown in the OP) basically agreed with what Declan was saying.

Well actually if you have eyes to see I have not been agreeing with Declan entirely (that all people who like 3rd ed are in effect assholes) and rather agreed that there are elements of 3rd ed's design that specifically appeal to assholes. Which has been further discussed, debated... the posts are there for anyone to see, starting by the OP itself.

You'll notice that I specifically debated Declan at the end of the thread about this precise distinction. Again, the posts are on record.

I've been owned by Declan obviously, since I thought there was some sincerity behind the aggressivity and insults, and was proven wrong, but let's not get carried away and go full retard ourselves, alright?

Quote from: Benoist;576466Yup. I stand corrected.

^_^

Nice to see Ben is owning this properly, I would suggest he use this a an opportunity to reflect on his actions as of late.

Quote from: Benoist;576473Well actually if you have eyes to see I have not been agreeing with Declan entirely (that all people who like 3rd ed are in effect assholes) and rather agreed that there are elements of 3rd ed's design that specifically appeal to assholes. Which has been further discussed, debated... the posts are there for anyone to see, starting by the OP itself.

You'll notice that I specifically debated Declan at the end of the thread about this precise distinction. Again, the posts are on record.

I've been owned by Declan obviously, since I thought there was some sincerity behind the aggressivity and insults, and was proven wrong, but let's not get carried away and go full retard ourselves, alright?

-_- or not that's fine too.

Quote from: Benoist;576471Oh and Lord Mistborn? I'm grateful you deleted your last post. Try to spam the thread by posting the same message again "one more time" (sic) and I ban you too. I'm not joking.

You need to step away from the keyboard mate.

Forget it and move on.