Quote from: Declan MacManus;571320Yeah but at that point you might as well be playing AD&D 1, if you're not in it for the autistic number fellating.

Absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what happened to me. I was running 3rd ed, was liking the game well enough, was regularly annoyed at the rules OCD that became unavoidable on any thread about the game on ENWorld and w/e, and suddenly wondered "why the fuck am I bothering with this game exactly?" I hit the pause button when my Ptolus campaign came to an end, thought about it for a while, and tried OD&D to come back later to AD&D. The basic idea was indeed "why spend my time number crunching bullshit while I could build cool adventuring environments and care for the actual game instead?" That was it.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571320Here's the problem with 3rd edition...the people for whom it is the game of choice are assholes.

Just to be clear...I'm not stating that playing the game makes them assholes...merely that the game appeals to them precisely BECAUSE they are assholes.

I think it's undeniable at this point that there are certain types of players, which we would have called rules lawyers, munchkins, power gamers, selfish bastards in years past, that are specifically cattered to by this OCD game design. That makes no fucking doubt in my mind. And the OCD types of course eat it with a spoon.

At this point it's part of the DNA of the game. Have you seen the attention to careful rules twinkery in a contest like Paizo's "RPG Superstar", what they think makes good and bad design? That's actually telling. Big time.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571320D&D 3rd edition takes all of the shittiest gamer traits and rewards them. That game is written for rules lawyers, and munchkins, and powergamers...just running the game at upper levels is a rules mastery arms race, or else whoever has the most sourcebooks is just going to bully the rest of the table around. This is the target audience for 3E...the most whiny, petulant, entitled, self-centered, antisocial gamers out there. The fact that it appears to be the most popular just goes to show how utterly feculent the hobby has become, and why it deserves to die.

I got a different approach. If people want to play it to death and love their rules-twink, fine. Just keep gaming with it. I just won't approach a 3rd ed game table where I don't know the players first. And I'll keep on running the actual games I care about. If that makes these guys think "eww... that guy's game stinks. I need more rules fudge to have fun. PASS" so be it: I don't want you at my game table either!

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571320And rest assured...it will die. Eventually the shitwalll barring entry will become so impenetrable that no one new will join...and the old guard will all die of renal failure. We aren't keeping it alive...we're keeping it hooked up to machines like Terry Schiavo. I give it two agonizing decades of lingering, rotting, slow death.

I don't know. Maybe. It seems that the d20 system itself is very adaptable, can be reinvented time and time again. It just seems to me that the OGL will engender a never ending stream of reinvention of 3rd ed over and over. I don't see the game die any time soon, to be honest.

I think that the system is a secondary point to the feel of the game that's set by the GM.

I've run a LOT of d20.  When I moved to North Carolina I wound up with a group that wasn't as interested in my staple games of choice (Rifts and Cyberpunk) and so I wound up running D&D 3.0.  There were some people who tried to game that system, but it didn't really become a thing until 3.5.  At that point I made it known to my friends that if they couldn't be trusted to play the game the way it was intended, in my judgement (mirroring the feel of parts of 1e and 2e to me) then I'd be happy to run something that didn't require them to be so tempted.

They didn't want to run, so they accepted that.  As we brought in new players, they were able to pick up on the feel of how the game was run well enough to not have to be directly briefed on it.  I didn't allow splatbooks, I didn't allow some of the core classes from the Complete books, and any prestige class was by GM permission only, so I didn't have much of a problem with it.

I don't think that ANY system can be categorically defined as being 'only for moron asshats'.  It's all about how the game is played and how involved the GM chooses to be in the process.

Much like Ben said, if people don't like it, they're welcome to go find a group that suits their needs.

"why spend my time number crunching bullshit while I could build cool adventuring environments and care for the actual game instead?"


Well said, Benoist

Quote from: Benoist;571334Absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what happened to me. I was running 3rd ed, was liking the game well enough, was regularly annoyed at the rules OCD that became unavoidable on any thread about the game on ENWorld and w/e, and suddenly wondered "what the fuck am I bothering with this game exactly?" I hit the pause button when my Ptolus campaign came to an end, thought about it for a while, and tried OD&D to come back later to AD&D. The basic reflexion was indeed "why spend my time number crunching bullshit while I could build cool adventuring environments and care for the actual game instead?" That was it.

Tried it when it came out. It was fun until everyone started talking about their "builds".

We never used to "build" characters. We rolled up characters, bought equipment and played.

That's when we went back to our houseruled RC.

It's not that I don't like modern design...it's that it always seems to be player centric, which leads to charop fappery and rules cock swinging. D&D is supposed to be about the adventure...not some fucking schmucks spiked chain feats.

Quote from: Benoist;571334I think it's undeniable at this point that there are certain types of players, which we would have called rules lawyers, munchkins, power gamers, selfish bastards in years past, that are specifically cattered to by this OCD game design. That makes no fucking doubt in my mind. And the ODC types of course eat it with a spoon.

I got a different approach. If people want to play it to death and love their rules-twink, fine. Just keep gaming with it. I just won't approach a 3rd ed game table where I don't know the players first. And I'll keep on running the actual games I care about. If that makes these guys think "eww... that guy's game stink. I need more rules fudge to have fun. PASS" so be it: I don't want you at my game table either!

Which makes me wonder why they play D&D at all instead of Magic: The Gathering...why turn a perfectly good roleplaying game into competitive masturbation for high functioning autistics?

That's why I don't play with gamers anymore. I've got my good friends that I played D&D with in school...and I've got whatever nongamers I recruit. If I can't pull a group together, then I just don'tplay. No gamign is better than bad gaming in my book.

Quote from: Benoist;571334I don't know. Maybe. It seems that the d20 system itself is very adaptable, can be reinvented time and time again. It just seems to me that the OGL will engender a never ending stream of reinvention of 3rd ed over and over. I don't see the game die any time soon, to be honest.

The only thing it's ever going to produce is shitty 3e clones and Mutants & Masterminds. That's it.

D&D 4 tried to move the game forward, albeit in the wrong direction, and was met with shrieking temper tantrums from blustering asscunt Paizo disciples just because it dared to limit munchkinry. For a while I was hoping that 4E and Pathfinder would be wildly successful so that both camps would be nicely segregated from the rest of us and I would never actually have to deal with them...but alas. Now I just hope it all fails and rpg's become conclaves of home made rules and DIY adventures.

The hobby might not be dead, but if the future is 3rd edition forever and ever, does it really deserve to be alive? The game might as well be a CCG at this point.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571340Much like Ben said, if people don't like it, they're welcome to go find a group that suits their needs.

I don't believe in that hippy bullshit.

I believe that opinions that are different from mine are dangerous and nonsensical and therefore must be bludgeoned out of existence.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571351I don't believe in that hippy bullshit.

I believe that opinions that are different from mine are dangerous and nonsensical and therefore must be bludgeoned out of existence.

Ah, I see.  I suppose it would always come down to who has the bigger hammer

You guys must have had your girlfriends leave you for a 3e player or something.  I sense a lot of anger there...

I could go around saying that 2nd ed is for gygax fellating asshats who's collective stench kept the TTRPG market in the dark recesses of the world and built a culture that people found reclusive and repulsive and that only the advent of 3rd and fourth edition along with videogames have brought it much closer to the light. Hell I could even say games like Skyrim and WoW are popularizing RPGs such that regular people can actually get into the market as opposed to the neckbearded grognards that built such a bad reputation for the game in their time. I could point out 3rd's overwhelming success and continued success in the pathfinder analogue is evidence of a superior system or organization that shows that third had more staying power than previous editions since 4th didn't thrust it into obscurity.

I could rant for hours about how some game prooduces some kind of assholes based on questionable evidence and popular theory. However, I'm not going to because I don't believe in any of the shit said in the OP or any of the shit I just said. It's all garbage. People like what they like. It is as simple as that. Making a thread to call people who like something you don't like is just making yourself out to be an asshole. People like 4th ed? I don't give a fuck. I don't I have my reasons, I don't play it. People like 2nd ed? I don't, I have my reasons, I don't play it. I associate with people who like 4e, WhiteWolf stuff, larping, GURPs, Warhammer Fantassy, on a regular basis and I don't give a shit that they like shit I don't like and don't think less of them for it.

This is a stupid thread made off of a stupid idea to further exalt some particular fashion of play that someone has.

Whenever Elvis Costello here goes off on 3e I'm reminded of that old Chris Rock bit:

I'm not saying you should have killed that 3e player...

BUT I UNDERSTAND.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;571359You guys must have had your girlfriends leave you for a 3e player or something.  I sense a lot of anger there...

My girlfriends all leave me because "I am too nice" or "It's me, not you"

I can't pin it on 3E

That A+ thing already over?  

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571348Tried it when it came out. It was fun until everyone started talking about their "builds".

We never used to "build" characters. We rolled up characters, bought equipment and played.

That's when we went back to our houseruled RC.

It's not that I don't like modern design...it's that it always seems to be player centric, which leads to charop fappery and rules cock swinging. D&D is supposed to be about the adventure...not some fucking schmucks spiked chain feats.

Yeah, I completely agree with all that.

I mean, as I mentioned before, I did optimize and exploited loopholes and bullshit in my day. I've done it. It was fun for a while to find the "combo" and just have lulz with it in some game or other. But (1) it gets old super fast, because once you know what to look for, it just becomes way too easy to find it, (2) you're actually missing the point of the fucking game, to play the rules system as the game itself, and (3) whatever optimized character you have, the GM can fuck you up whenever he wants, by the rules, no fudging, just throwing shit at you until you die. There's just no contest, so the idea there's an arms race going on is stupid in the first place.

So yeah, I imagine that's something a lot of gamers do to experiment, for the shit and giggles and so on. It's like playing psychopaths in D&D - you do it once when you're 12 years old, but if you're still finding it fun after 20 years of gaming, dude, something's got to be wrong with your priorities playing the game.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571348Which makes me wonder why they play D&D at all instead of Magic: The Gathering...why turn a perfectly good roleplaying game into competitive masturbation for high functioning autistics?

Identification of the self-loathing nerd with his character, which he can't do with a deck of cards. Seriously. I think it comes down to catharsis.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571348That's why I don't play with gamers anymore. I've got my good friends that I played D&D with in school...and I've got whatever nongamers I recruit. If I can't pull a group together, then I just don'tplay. No gamign is better than bad gaming in my book.

I don't think all gamers are assholes. I can play with gamers. Many of them are not the assburgers you see roaming on internet forums posting their builds and having a 400 page argument about wizards versus fighters. It's a matter of knowing who's who, right?

That said, like you I prefer to play with friends and acquaintances, to introduce the games to new people and see them being excited about it and grow into their own, rather than play with gamers exclusively. No question about it.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571348The only thing it's ever going to produce is shitty 3e clones and Mutants & Masterminds. That's it.

D&D 4 tried to move the game forward, albeit in the wrong direction, and was met with shrieking temper tantrums from blustering asscunt Paizo disciples just because it dared to limit munchkinry. For a while I was hoping that 4E and Pathfinder would be wildly successful so that both camps would be nicely segregated from the rest of us and I would never actually have to deal with them...but alas. Now I just hope it all fails and rpg's become conclaves of home made rules and DIY adventures.

Fuck if I know what the future has in store at this point. I honestly have no clue.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571348The hobby might not be dead, but if the future is 3rd edition forever and ever, does it really deserve to be alive? The game might as well be a CCG at this point.

That I can answer to: the hobby will not die. Not as long as people play. And people play enough games that there'll always be an alternative to 3rd and d20 games. And if I can't find those tables when I want to play, I'll keep on running my games for whoever wants them. I'll never run out of games to play.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;571365That A+ thing already over?  

Yeah, reality called. It wanted me back.

Quote from: MGuy;571360I could go around saying that 2nd ed is for gygax fellating asshats who's collective stench kept the TTRPG market in the dark recesses of the world and built a culture that people found reclusive and repulsive and that only the advent of 3rd and fourth edition along with videogames have brought it much closer to the light..

You could, but then people would look at you like you went exponential retard.


Hint.  Gygax didn't have anything to do with 2e.


This is almost comical at the number of things you keep getting wrong.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;571359You guys must have had your girlfriends leave you for a 3e player or something.  I sense a lot of anger there...

LOL My wife actually started playing with 3rd ed. No anger on my part, here.