Quote from: Rum Cove;571528Right, and 3e created a whole generation of misguided players.

I'm pretty sure a poll of ages taken in the Wizard vs. Fighter thread will prove enlightening.

Bah, you know everyone would be 45 and have played at Gary's table.  Just like every person who has ever played World of Warcraft and posts on their forum has played since beta.  Ask 'em!

Eh. Played plenty of 3e, and things went just fine. While there was some player talk and thoughts about feats, most people were far more concerned about how they were going to play the character in general.

I suggest the 3e non-fans organize a support group so they can have a good cry and group hug.

Quote from: Benoist;571531(1) from a game play standpoint, I was just tolerating the math and multiple modifiers and recalculating all the skills you put ranks in and all the nitpicky "do your taxes" aspects of the game, and one day woke up wondering "why the fuck do I care about all this shit?" as I stated before.

You know, I actually quite like math, I think it's fun and cool and I'm a science student BUT from my experience with teaching people how to play 3E AND watching many folks flounder with all the math in the game (I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about this, but I'm of the opinion that most everyday folks have atrocious math skills) I've come to the conclusion it's too math heavy for a "game," and the math really really really slows down play.

Quote from: Planet Algol;571538You know, I actually quite like math, I think it's fun and cool and I'm a science student BUT from my experience with teaching people how to play 3E AND watching many folks flounder with all the math in the game (I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about this, but I'm of the opinion that most everyday folks have atrocious math skills) I've come to the conclusion it's too math heavy for a "game," and the math really really really slows down play.

I completely agree. I've introduced folks to role playing games using 3rd ed. At the time I was myopic about it, but with hindsight it's VERY clear to me that the ONE major thing I would change retroactively is that I would use a game much lighter on math, with more ready character choices that you pick and boom you game.

Something like AD&D (or OD&D, or B/X, etc) actually works great. You just roll your stats, pick a class, a race, select your equipment (the most time consuming task in actual play - have some 'equipment bundles' ready for purchase in advance, DMs!), roll for starting spells and select those you got memorized, and on you go adventuring. No bullshit choosing feats and themes and selecting skills and all that crap that just clutters the game and makes character gen slow down to a crawl as you explain the options and pass on the rules book to see the list and what-the-fuck-else.

Quote from: Planet Algol;571538You know, I actually quite like math, I think it's fun and cool and I'm a science student BUT from my experience with teaching people how to play 3E AND watching many folks flounder with all the math in the game (I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about this, but I'm of the opinion that most everyday folks have atrocious math skills) I've come to the conclusion it's too math heavy for a "game," and the math really really really slows down play.

Now that I can sympathize with. It can be pretty easy for newbies to miss a modifier in 3e because there can be two or three in each roll.

WAY too many numbers on the character sheet in 3rd ed.

In regards to the "assholes" issues, I think how to there was a synergy with the era that 3E was released being roughly when the internet became a household appliance AND console/computer RPGs/games were a household appliance as well.

You have a situation where people make up "walkthroughs" and "strategy guides" for video rpgs and share them on the internet, so than people make up [figurative] "walkthroughs" and "strategy guides" for Dungeons&Dragons and share them on the internet with a generation of new D&D players that learned about fantasy adventure games from video games with savegames and difficulty settings and MMO that don't have permadeath or even PVP .... or that do have PVP...

For example, when a big deal fantasy adventure videogame is released I could buy a book that's the "module", "monster manual," and "tome of treasures" for that videogame at the store where I buy the videogame.

The first time I saw that I was flabbergasted, why would someone want to ruin the game for themselves like that? Ideally I want to know as little as possible about what's in a fantasy adventure game before I play it. Plus, "it's cheating."

You combine those volatile elements: 3E, the emergence of the Internet, the emergence of fantasy adventure videogames being an everyday thing AND the associated videogame "strategy guide culture" and what emerges, among a segment of the people playing 3E (and probably other rpgs of the era), is an attitude of entitlement to "win the game" and "have the best possible character"

Which is a mentality contrary to quality pulp fantasy adventure gaming. Which is what D&D is.

(yes I'm aware there were strategy guides in the 80s, but I don't believe they were as prevelant AND there wasn't "The Internet" to provide a "feedback loop")

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;571507Any Dm worth his viking hat(for you can tell the good dm's from bad by checking the length of horns and such on there hat) should know the easiest way to stop players from twinking characters via 'builds' is to tell them not every feat they want is available in the town/city they call home this will either make them throw a tantrum and quit whilst sulking about you being unfair, or will spur them into wanting to find trainers for these skills which should in theory allow you to develop a campaign where they play nice whilst slowly getting their toys at your pace...and hey if they dont get those precious feats of choice at the levels they wanted it's not exactly your fault, afterall the trainers are hard to find and may not even want to train them without some sort of reward(and some may even be dead).

I'm not sure this is RAW.  And if it isn't, why would this level of fiat be any more/less effective than the good old, "don't be a dick, this isn't a character building contest"?

3E should have had PCs acquire their feats and skills at 2nd level...

or serious?

Quote from: Benoist;571541I completely agree. I've introduced folks to role playing games using 3rd ed. At the time I was myopic about it, but with hindsight it's VERY clear to me that the ONE major thing I would change retroactively is that I would use a game much lighter on math, with more ready character choices that you pick and boom you game.

Something like AD&D (or OD&D, or B/X, etc) actually works great. You just roll your stats, pick a class, a race, select your equipment (the most time consuming task in actual play - have some 'equipment bundles' ready for purchase in advance, DMs!), roll for starting spells and select those you got memorized, and on you go adventuring. No bullshit choosing feats and themes and selecting skills and all that crap that just clutters the game and makes character gen slow down to a crawl as you explain the options and pass on the rules book to see the list and what-the-fuck-else.

So you don't do NWPs in your AD&D?

Quote from: mcbobbo;571550So you don't do NWPs in your AD&D?

Class-based and Skill-based are incompatible.

Quote from: Rum Cove;571552Class-based and Skill-based are incompatible.

Okay, so I haven't seen AD&D since high school, but is this actually in the rules?

Yeah. The explosion of the internet is probably part of it. It quickly devolved into theoretical circle-jerks.

You know, around 2000, there was a website called Dlabbradath that had tons of information on the Realms and everything... the website was myth-drannor.net. It had a forum. And that forum was AWESOME. The discussions were really cool and there was an entire parallel board for online gaming... man, those were the days. 3rd ed was fresh then, and the discussion weren't endlessly geared to talk about PrCs and "this v. that" and "is that balanced?" and "I got a new feat" and all that bullshit.

It became worse later. ENWord was great in those days too. A little later. 2004 or so. Then it gradually became shit too. Ah well.

Quote from: mcbobbo;571550So you don't do NWPs in your AD&D?

That shit is right out of my games.

Quote from: Benoist;571541I completely agree. I've introduced folks to role playing games using 3rd ed. At the time I was myopic about it, but with hindsight it's VERY clear to me that the ONE major thing I would change retroactively is that I would use a game much lighter on math, with more ready character choices that you pick and boom you game.

A confession. I'll play 3e, but I run BFRPG mainly because of the above.