It would seem to me that a Cleric Speciality and Mage Class combination would do the 'healbot' quite nicely, since as I'm reading things, there's nothing in the FC rules forbidding a Mage access to the Healing subschool of Enchantment.

Quote from: Aglondir;1139536FC is amazing, but there's just too much. We need an FC Lite.

Not sure if you've mentioned this yet, but in the Crafty forums there was a great thread on the 3.5 Cleric vs. the FC Priest. The player was complaining that he actually wanted to be a healbot, but the rules didn't really allow it. The designers tried to explain that one of the design goals was to eliminate the concept of "Cleric as healbot" freeing up the FC Priest for cooler options. Unfortunately the player wasn't getting it. My take-away was that the player had found a comfortable niche as the group's healer, a role which he served in for every game, and was nervous when faced with challenge of stepping outside of his comfort zone.

On a related note, I'm curious if (or how) FC solves the 3.5 CODzilla problem (Cleric or Druid + Godzilla) where the C/D is a better fighter than the fighter at higher levels. Or some of the other 3.5 conundrums, like LFQW or Christmas Tree mentality.

Tenbones, I'm surprised you didn't mention Trailblazer in your analysis, which to my mind would be the true cage match of the 3.75 editions (PF, FC, and Trailblazer.)

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64009/Trailblazer

Yeah the CODZilla doesn't really exist in FC. Mainly because Divine casting works *nothing* like 3e/PF. We'll explore all of those ramifications once we let everyone's head's wrap around the classes. Soldiers and dedicated melee-types/non-caster ranged PC's are *deadly* in combat.

I think people will raise some eyebrows at how Divine casters work. As someone that dropped the Cleric class in 2e and went strictly with Specialty Priests - Fantasy Craft raises that bar to a different level.

CODzilla isn't *really* a thing because technically if you want to be a healbot - Mages can heal if your GM wants to let Mages have access to Cure Wounds spell line. Or it might be only the province of Divine casters that worship the correct Gods with the right Alignment.

But regardless, if you wanna be a Healbot, the way combat works in the game makes being a Healbot not quite the same thing as in D&D. Yes you can absolutely do it... but the game is a little more active in play than thinking you're just gonna lean back and toss heals to your fellow PC's. Depends on the GM runs things. Those kinds of things don't even exist in my old D&D campaigns because I never allow "regular" clerics, so it was never an issue.

The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage issue? Largely solved. Fighters capacity to end fights matches that of Mages - likewise Mages are more mechanically flexible than their D&D/PF counterparts, but their utility of spell selection isn't as varied.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1139544It would seem to me that a Cleric Speciality and Mage Class combination would do the 'healbot' quite nicely, since as I'm reading things, there's nothing in the FC rules forbidding a Mage access to the Healing subschool of Enchantment.

By the rules- this is absolutely correct. But I make no assumptions about how a GM wants to apply the toolkit to any particular setting of their own creation.

Mages *are* the defacto "magical healers" of FC. There is less constraint on them than there is on Priests whose Alignment is going to dictate what they have access to. Clerics are closer to being a practical natural healer, there is nothing really magic about them, but clearly they're part of a Faith.

Priests of Faiths/Alignments that advocate Miracles the grant Path of Life are pretty much the only "divine healers" (but they're good at it).

Quote from: tenbones;1139472Yeah! The Social-Based classes and Stress-mechanics are *severely* under-rated. I had a player who ran with a Courtier and envisioned himself like "Littlefinger" from the GoT books. Holy hell, as long as combat hasn't started, this guy was doing things all over the place. Right from the start he was having people set up to be murdered off-stage and immediately moving up the power-structure.

ETA: Dude, you're my signature! You've been my signature as long as I can remember! I only just now saw that the name in my sig and yours was the same. Whoa! Trippy.

Yeah, social attacks can be downright deadly, too. Like you can literally freak people out so much they pass out, and then can just end them while they're down. We were up against a lot of human opponents one - a "The Most Dangerous Game" situation where we were the prey - and we ended up burying a fuckton of evil noblemen in the quicksand pits they had intended to use to hide us. Like seriously, we scrubbed the entire island clean while they were pissing themselves and set their other prisoners free, and then hid all of the evidence in the quicksand. We took the long route home(the only ones who knew we were on the island were the noblemen who took us there, and they were now dead) and swore each other to secrecy. Ended a slaving/hunting ring but never got any credit for it. Felt it was safer that way. The physical dudes did a huge ton of taking down, too. We were all contributing very well, just so we're clear. (Also, forgot to mention before that the GM and all of the players were new to Fantasy Craft. That's all the above conversation over Stress amounted to, really. Just us being new to the system and being surprised by something neither of us anticipated.)

Quote from: tenbones;1139528Yep. But I'm trying to keep it core. Otherwise I'll be comparing the metric ton of 3.x third party stuff... and down the already daunting rabbit-hole we go.

I dunno. Even with Call to Arms, there's really very little FC material relative to D&D material. I figure if you included it(not saying you should, just if), maybe a choice product or 2 extra for D&D would suffice.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1139535If I'm reading Specialty correctly, those are flat things, correct?  You get the listed bonuses and they aren't adjusted by level?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm playing around with an idea that is close but not exactly to "throw BEMCI and 5E into a blender then rearrange the parts", which in some ways is similar to what FC does to 3E (only more basic, given the origin material).

He already answered, but you'll notice that some Specialties, like Ranger, have abilities that scale at least a little, like Favored Foes. It scales in a way that's a lot less powerful than a lot of the all-up-front bonuses, so I don't have a problem with this occasional departure from the norm.

Quote from: Aglondir;1139536FC is amazing, but there's just too much. We need an FC Lite.

I'd definite check this out, but I think it's inaccurate to think of FC as particularly rules-heavy. When I think about it compared to D&D and PF, it's not more heavy, just differently heavy. I do think there's a little more work on the GM side, though. Creating NPCs and monsters is a pretty involved process with lots of options and abilities. And choosing your Campaign Qualities . . . well, that part's fun, true, but there's yet another list of things to consider for your setting.

QuoteNot sure if you've mentioned this yet, but in the Crafty forums there was a great thread on the 3.5 Cleric vs. the FC Priest.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1139544It would seem to me that a Cleric Speciality and Mage Class combination would do the 'healbot' quite nicely, since as I'm reading things, there's nothing in the FC rules forbidding a Mage access to the Healing subschool of Enchantment.

Haha, I was using the multi-quote and was going to say exactly this! But since you already did, I'll expand a little. By default, Fantasy Craft gives you classes that you can go many directions with, with pretty much all of the options set to ON. It's up to the GM to determine which options do and don't fit their setting and limit accordingly. Also, the unfinished Spellbound was supposed to expand on the magic system and contain a lot of new magic-using classes. Including a line dedicated to healers, IIRC. It's a shame that it was never released. It's the reason that I refuse to get the Mistborn RPG. I will not support the enemy no matter how much I love the Mistborn series.

Quote from: tenbones;1139550The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage issue? Largely solved. Fighters capacity to end fights matches that of Mages - likewise Mages are more mechanically flexible than their D&D/PF counterparts, but their utility of spell selection isn't as varied.

Oh, yes! The way they have a limited pool of spell points that replenishes fairly quickly once at rest. The way even the physically wimpy classes have some combat proficiencies, and how the classes are really great at their particular schtick, but still pretty okay at most other things. Someone with low CHA can still impress people some of the times. Casters without spell points can attack, you know, not great like a Soldier or anything, but pretty okay. They're not totally hosed just because they ran out of juice. At a disadvantage, sure, but not hosed. So yeah, great at one thing and good enough at a couple more.

Class Comparison!

Okay now it's time to enter the Thunderdome. From here on out we're going to see some definite differences between systems. Fantasy Craft will be making further departures because the core assumptions of class design are much more different than D&D3e, and Pathfinder which cleaves relatively much closer to D&D.


D&D 3.x Class Progression
Each class in D&D 3.x has a 20-level progression on a uniform XP-accrual rate. This also includes uniform Feat acquisition of a free Feat at 1st then a new Feat every 3-levels thereafter. Ability score increases every 4 levels. Class Skill Max Ranks are capped by current level +3

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4685[/ATTACH]

Pathfinder's Class Progression
Pathfinder also has a 20-level progression but changes a few things. First it gives three different XP-acquisition tracks to level up your characters at the discretion of the GM. This is a very novel idea in that it allows for emphasis on certain ranges of play. Immediately it should be noted that the XP values for Pathfinder even on its fastest track are higher than D&D3.x  But in every other feature, mirrors the same uniform progression outside of Skills which are endemic to each class. Skill acquisition is different based on class, where each class is granted "favored skill" and members of that class get +3 to any rolls made with that skill.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4686[/ATTACH]

Fantasy Craft Class Progression
Fantasy Craft also has a 20-lvl progression. It's similarities are uniform XP totals per level, Maximum Skill Rank capped at current level +3, Attribute score increases every 4th level, and Extra Feats every 3-lvls after 1st.

But there are a few more items that Fantasy Craft characters get -

Extra Proficiencies - Proficiencies are Advanced actions or tricks you can learn. These are like mini-Feats that more granularly make your character more distinctive mechanically. Anyone can swing a sword - but your character might have the Forced Opening Trick - which allows you to attack with such a flourish that it causes your target to cause him to be flat-footed. We'll cover these in the Combat section later.

Extra Interests - Interests come in three categories: Alignment, Languages and Studies. Alignment is different in Fantasy Craft than it is in D&D/Pathfinder. Alignment represents a belief in a God, Philosophy or moral outlook (traditional D&D alignment), or ethos specific to your setting. Alignment is only necessary for settings where direct interaction with these forces are necessary or if there is a social need that supports that belief system in the game. In other words - if your character is actively engaged in such activities - some classes and Feats, *require* you purchase an alignment. Otherwise you don't need it unless you want to simply be part of it. For classes that requires it - Priest and Paladins, Alignment dictates the needs of their supernatural patron, and each Alignment dictates the benefits and drawbacks. Think of Alignment to be like the ethos from Powers and Pantheons in D&D2e.

Languages - Yep. Languages.

Studies - Studies are specific areas of a skill you possess that might give you extra bonuses on any roll you might make when dealing with that specific Study. This might come in the form of extra information, bonus to your die-roll, even for social rolls with NPC's that might share an interest in similar topics.

Action Dice - Every character gets Action Dice at the start of each session.  As you level you get more Action Dice. Action Dice can be spent to Boost Die rolls (1 die) - damage results, skill check, Knowledge check, saving-throw, or to-hit roll. These dice can be rolled *after* your roll, and they explode if you roll max on the die. You can also Boost Defense by spending 1 Action Die, you can increase your Defense rating by 2 for a number of rounds equal to the die-result. These roll also explodes. You can only benefit from one Defense Action-die at any time and if you burn another, it replaces the previous result even if it's lower. Action Dice can also be used to Activate a Threat. In Fantasy Craft you confirm Critical strikes and Fumbles with your Action Dice. Lastly you can use an Action Die to heal outside of combat as long as the PC is conscious.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4687[/ATTACH]

Okay now that's out of the way - on to the classes. I'm going to start with the basic classes that each game shares then delve into the ones not shared. I want everyone to take special note on how each version of the game defines their class, then in comparison weigh the mechanical representation of those classes not just to one another - but according to how they internally define them.

D&D Fighter
Defined as: Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name). Fighters are familiar with all the standard weapons and armors. In addition to general fighting prowess, each fighter develops particular specialties of his own. A given fighter may be especially capable with certain weapons; another might be trained to execute specific fancy maneuvers. As fighters gain experience, they get more opportunities to develop their fighting skills. Thanks to their focus on combat maneuvers, they can master the most difficult ones relatively quickly. Fighters come to their profession in many ways. Most have had formal training in a noble's army or at least in the local militia. Some have trained in formal academies. Others are self-taught--unpolished but well tested. A fighter may have taken up the sword as a way to escape the limits of life on the farm, or he may be following a proud family tradition. Fighters share no special identity. They do not see themselves as a group or brotherhood. Those who hail from a particular academy, mercenary company, or lord's regiment, however, share a certain camaraderie.

Hit Die d10.
Class Skills: The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level (2 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4688[/ATTACH]

So they get Extra Attacks at 6th level (with only a +1 bonus), superior Fortitude saves and Bonus Feats as special class abilities.

Pathfinder Fighter
Defined as: Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their eapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them. Fighters excel at combat--defeating their enemies, controlling the f low of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess.

Hit Die d10.
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient withall simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups. A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
Axes: battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, orc double axe, and throwing axe.
Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword.
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, short sword, sickle, and starknife.
Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
Close: gauntlet, heavy shield, light shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, and unarmed strike.
Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.
Double: dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.
Flails: dire f lail, f lail, heavy f lail, morningstar, nunchaku, spiked chain, and whip.
Hammers: club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, and warhammer.
Monk: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and unarmed strike.
Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.
Polearms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, and ranseur.
Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, and trident.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, half ling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/-- whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4689[/ATTACH]

So very similar in construction to the D&D3.x - but *definitely* beefed up with more granular mechanics to differentiate Pathfinder Fighters with different weapon expertise benefits. The core class still uses the same Bonus Feats and Multiple Attack matrix as its core delivery mechanism for executing it's primary purpose: the professional warrior and weapon's expert.

Fantasy Craft Soldier
Defined as: The Soldier inhabits a bloody twilight realm of endless warfare, slashing and crushing his way from one bitter struggle to the next. Even when at relative "peace" he's always preparing, always on the lookout for the next fight, and this vigilance is part of what makes him such a godsend to fellow adventurers. Nothing levels the field of battle like a well-honed Soldier, except perhaps two Soldiers.

Depending on your campaign, a Soldier could be...
• A veteran legionnaire bearing decades of war scars
• A plucky young squire seeking to prove himself through feats of arms and daring
• A martial arts master committed to enlightenment through the perfection of his fighting technique
• A tribal warrior defending his people from ancient foes
• A gladiatorial champion, calling for any and all taker

Party Role: Combatant. You're the ultimate general warrior. With strong fighting stats and abilities, you're the perfect complement to any party that regularly brawls. You're not initially the best at any particular aspect of battle (though you can easily reach that goal); rather, you're strong in all categories.

CLASS FEATURES
Favored Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution (though not always in that order)
Class Skills: Athletics, Crafting, Intimidate, Notice, Resolve, Search, Survival, Tactics
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier per level
Vitality (HP): 12 + Con modifier per level
Starting Proficiencies: 6

CORE ABILITY
Accurate: Your finely honed physique is your deadliest weapon. Each time you spend 1 action die to boost an attack check, you roll and add the results of 2 dice (e.g. at Career Level 1, 1d4 becomes 2d4).

CLASS ABILITIES
Fight On: At Levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19, you gain 1 additional Basic, Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed Combat feat or 2 additional proficiencies.

Fortunes of War I: You stand fast in battle, especially when the pressure's on. At Level 2, you gain Damage Reduction 1. During dramatic scenes, this DR increases to 2.
Fortunes of War II: At Level 11, your Damage Reduction increases to 2 (4 during dramatic scenes).
Fortunes of War III: At Level 19, your Damage Reduction increases to 3 (6 during dramatic scenes).

Armor Use I: At Level 4, you gain a +1 bonus to Defense while wearing armor and receive a 20% discount when purchasing armor.
Armor Use II: At Level 8, this Defense bonus increases to +2 and this discount increases to 25%.
Armor Use III: At Level 12, this Defense bonus increases to +3 and this discount increases to 30%.
Armor Use IV: At Level 16, this Defense bonus increases to +4 and this discount increases to 35%.
Armor Use V: At Level 20, this Defense bonus increases to +5 and this discount increases to 40%.

Weapon Specialist: Your knowledge of weapons in which you're trained is expansive and precise. At Levels 6, 9, 12, 15,and 18, you may choose 1 of the following abilities. Each of these abilities may be chosen only once.
• Certainty: Your error range with proficient attacks decreases by 2 (minimum 0).
• Decisive Attack: Once per round when holding a weapon in which you're proficient, you may make 1 free attack against a standard character.
• Killer Instinct: You inflict 2 additional damage with proficient attacks.
• Master Weaponsmith: You're considered to have 5 additional ranks in Crafting when building, improving, or repairing weapons in which you're proficient. This may cause you to exceed your maximum skill rank for these activities.
• Most Deadly: It costs you 1 fewer action dice to activate critical hits with proficient attacks (minimum 0).
• One Step Ahead: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to Defense and DR 1 against attacks with weapons in which you're proficient.
• Rugged Weapons: When you're holding a weapon in which you're proficient and it must make a Damage save, you may roll twice, keeping the result you prefer.
• Shrewd Buyer: You receive a 20% discount when purchasing weapons in which you're proficient.

Portable Cover: You make the most of terrain, even improvising cover from objects kicked, knocked, or thrown into the path of incoming attacks. At Level 10, you and each ally within 10 ft. is considered to have 1/4 cover at all times, even when standing in the open. This benefit is lost while you're flat-footed. At Level 20, this ability grants 1/2 cover and affects allies within 15 ft.

One in a Million: You turn nearly any battlefield opportunity into savage amounts of pain. At Level 14, once per session, you may make 1 attack check, Fortitude save, or Strength- or Constitution-based skill check, automatically scoring a natural 20. This roll is a threat and may be activated as a critical success. You may not be forced to re-roll this natural 20.

Okay I'm going to have to post the stat-bloc in the next post (limited to 5 per post). But I want everyone to look at the sheer difference in expectation of what a Fighter is in Pathfinder and D&D - which by their own definitions seem... wishy-washy. And their mechanical representation of the class is weak at best when considered within the context of the system itself which we'll be digging into deeper later. All three classes focus on Feat acquisition - but the other abilities of the Solider (included the much higher HP total) and class flexibility completely outclasses the Pathfinder Fighter on its own merits. When we get into the Feats section, and you see how powerful the Feats are... then the true magnitude of the Soldier (and all the other Fantasy Craft classes) will be understood.

Another note - the Soldier gets it's capstone ability at 14th-lvl. You don't have to wait until 20 like in D&D or Pathfinder. And again, I'll let the definition of the Fantasy Craft Soldier settle in. It knows exactly what it's supposed to be and the flexibility of the system lets it be anything else you as a player want on top of that.

Lastly, you'll notice Fantasy Craft characters don't roll HP. You get a standard amount + Con modifier every level. The reasons behind this will be realized when we get to combat... it's nasty business.

Fantasy Craft Soldier

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4690[/ATTACH]

Yeah... now *that* is a Fighter.

Ah, Action Dice finally got mentioned.

You've hit on one of the things I'm a little torn over. There's something I've experienced in other systems with "bennies", but is exacerbated in FC due to the way you can spend them on so many things; but how they're really, really needed to activate critical hits; and how critical hits become increasingly important as you level up due to the way NPC/monster HP increase at often ridiculous rates. On top of that, some class abilities rely on them, too. It's a particularly potent recipe for encouraging a hoarder mentality, which I'm not fond of. Soldier has an optional ability they can take as early as level 6 to mitigate this in combat, but what about everyone else? They get stuck chipping away at often ridiculous piles of HP(when you get to the NPC/monster creation section, I'll say more about this) unless they hoarded enough action dice to circumvent that(if they roll lucky enough, too, of course), and I can't believe that's intentional.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1140891Ah, Action Dice finally got mentioned.

You've hit on one of the things I'm a little torn over. There's something I've experienced in other systems with "bennies", but is exacerbated in FC due to the way you can spend them on so many things; but how they're really, really needed to activate critical hits; and how critical hits become increasingly important as you level up due to the way NPC/monster HP increase at often ridiculous rates. On top of that, some class abilities rely on them, too. It's a particularly potent recipe for encouraging a hoarder mentality, which I'm not fond of. Soldier has an optional ability they can take as early as level 6 to mitigate this in combat, but what about everyone else? They get stuck chipping away at often ridiculous piles of HP(when you get to the NPC/monster creation section, I'll say more about this) unless they hoarded enough action dice to circumvent that(if they roll lucky enough, too, of course), and I can't believe that's intentional.

Yeah, I really didn't like the Action Dice mechanic. I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea of a game resource that can be spent to improve your chances of success, since I do think that IRL you can "push" yourself to succeed at something if you really want or need to (like when you really need to make a deadline and still have a ton of work to get done). But I didn't like the implementation of them in FC. The first issue I have is that they use a bonus die type that increases based on your level, which might seem like a sensible thing on the surface, except that higher level characters need them less than lower level characters do. So what's the point of gating the higher die types for higher levels when you already have higher ability modifiers at that point? But lower level characters who still have crap modifiers only get +1d4? Rrright...

Then there's the reliance on Action Dice to trigger critical hits, which TBH, is one of the worse, most tedious and punitive critical hit mechanics I've ever seen. Conforming criticals in 3e was already bad enough, but in FC you're expected to spend a limited game resource just to get an outcome you already need to roll a natural 20 (maybe less depending on weapon) to even get access to? Personally I'd just make criticals automatic (the way I handle them in 3e--no extra "confirmation" roll nonsense), and maybe keep the mechanic of improving criticals if you're willing to spend Action Points on it, which IMO is the only innovative part of FC's critical hit mechanic. The idea of spending extra effort to get more out of your criticals at least seems cool and makes sense.

Class abilities being triggered by spending Action Points is also interesting, but I'm not a fan of tracking fiddly, situational class abilities with limited uses per day or requiring special resources to use. But that's mostly cuz I'm lazy that way. So I have mixed feelings on it.

Quote from: tenbones;1140873Fantasy Craft Soldier

I've been going over Spycraft 1.0 for comparison. It's fun to see how the SC Soldier evolved into the FC Fighter.

Quote from: tenbones;1140873Portable Cover: You make the most of terrain, even improvising cover from objects kicked, knocked, or thrown into the path of incoming attacks. At Level 10, you and each ally within 10 ft. is considered to have 1/4 cover at all times, even when standing in the open. This benefit is lost while you're flat-footed. At Level 20, this ability grants 1/2 cover and affects allies within 15 ft.

I never liked "quantum cover." It raises too many issues: How and why did this thing suddenly appear on the battlefield? Or was there the entire time, but we didn't notice it until the narrative demanded? Does it make sense in every possible environment, even in an empty parking lot, an empty warehouse, or an open field? What does "portable" mean here? Does it move when I move?  

Quote from: tenbones;1140873Another note - the Soldier gets it's capstone ability at 14th-lvl. You don't have to wait until 20 like in D&D or Pathfinder.

Excellent design.

Quote from: tenbones;1140873Yeah... now *that* is a Fighter.

Indeed!

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1140891Ah, Action Dice finally got mentioned.

You've hit on one of the things I'm a little torn over. There's something I've experienced in other systems with "bennies", but is exacerbated in FC due to the way you can spend them on so many things; but how they're really, really needed to activate critical hits; and how critical hits become increasingly important as you level up due to the way NPC/monster HP increase at often ridiculous rates. On top of that, some class abilities rely on them, too. It's a particularly potent recipe for encouraging a hoarder mentality, which I'm not fond of. Soldier has an optional ability they can take as early as level 6 to mitigate this in combat, but what about everyone else? They get stuck chipping away at often ridiculous piles of HP(when you get to the NPC/monster creation section, I'll say more about this) unless they hoarded enough action dice to circumvent that(if they roll lucky enough, too, of course), and I can't believe that's intentional.

If there was one thing that rubbed me oddly - it's Action Dice.

Here's my experience (which oddly helped me when I got into Savage Worlds) - there should be an Action Dice economy generated by players actually playing. Much like Bennies in Savage Worlds, GM's should incentivize players to do things that the GM deems worthy of rewarding Action Dice. This disincentivizes hoarding because players will build their PC's to use the AD's towards their respective strengths organically. Soldiers for instance *should* be spending their AD's ending fights fast through crazy damage and crits.

Something I completely did not mention on purpose... which is another thumb in the eye of D&D3.x and Pathfinder, is the fact that in Fantasy Craft, everyone gets a move and two action. You can attack twice, move, move attack once, then high-five yourself, etc. There is no "attack matrix" where you have to track iterative attacks at -4 or some crazy shit like that. Other Feats can net you more attacks but they're usually as part of very specialized routines which falls right into the Soldier's wheelhouse.

Right from the jump, Soldiers outperform Fighters from D&D3.x/PF on every level. And it only gets magnified from there.

I've never experienced the HP-punching bag effect - mainly because Crits usually end fights dead - bypassing Vitality(HP) altogether by Soldiers being melee-death-machines, or going full-ranged and bowfire -bowfire-bowfire. Also since monsters are templated and scalable... their abilities are *scary*. GM's can fine-tune encounters on the fly if they feel they over-tuned/under-tuned things without missing a beat. This is something that is virtually impossible for GM's in Pathfinder/D&D that don't have complete system-mastery, and even then the way monsters work in Fantasy Craft, where scaling is a feature, it allows GM's to literally make monsters up on the spot made to order - or NPCs or whatever you need or dream up, and the math tables hold it all together pretty seamlessly.

As for what casters and non-Soldiers do in combat to "compete" - well we'll get into that, because the other classes are bringing mighty-amounts of heat to the table in their own right.

Quote from: Aglondir;1140894I've been going over Spycraft 1.0 for comparison. It's fun to see how the SC Soldier evolved into the FC Fighter.

Yeah! To me - especially when you read their respective descriptions and see how these classes played out in 3e... I think they all match their respective descriptions... but PF and D&D's descriptions were weak and their mechanics even weaker.

Fantasy Craft's description meanwhile leaves nothing to the imagination. Soldiers are built for war and combat and in that regard they are badass. When we get to the combat section and Feats - I think it will raise a lot of eyebrows for those here unfamiliar with Fantasy Craft in just *how* devastating the non-casters in this game can be (and in more ways than just combat).

Quote from: Aglondir;1140894I never liked "quantum cover." It raises too many issues: How and why did this thing suddenly appear on the battlefield? Or was there the entire time, but we didn't notice it until the narrative demanded? Does it make sense in every possible environment, even in an empty parking lot, an empty warehouse, or an open field? What does "portable" mean here? Does it move when I move?

Yeah it's... a little much. But I just say it's the Soldier giving corrective directions/leading by example in meaningful tactical ways that helps people - not so literally as he's there literally blocking and deflecting everyone in all places around his quantum field. LOL

It's a big abstraction. So in effect - yes, it's portable cover because the effect is mechanically the same.

I decided I'm going to focus on the few non-caster classes first. Because once I get to the casters - it's going to be a natural lead-in to the Magic system which is *very* different. Plus we haven't touched on Skills and Feats...

So I'll do caster's last (which won't be long since there's only a couple of overlap classes).

D&D Rogue
Defined as: Rogues have little in common with one another. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they do share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard's trust, or some random person's pocket money. Rogues are highly skilled, and they can concentrate on developing any of several categories of skills. While not equal to members of many other classes in combat, a rogue knows how to hit where it hurts, and she can dish out a lot of damage with a sneak attack. Rogues have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding danger. Experienced rogues develop mystical powers and skills as they master the arts of stealth, evasion, and sneak attacks.

Hit Die: d6.
Class Skills
The rogue's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft(Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (8+ Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency:Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, short-bow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with
shields.

Sneak Attack (Ex): If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. A rogue can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be
able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Trapfinding (Ex): Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon's fiery breath or a fireball), she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class (a rogue with at least two levels of barbarian, for example), she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked; she can react to opponents on opposite sides of her as easily as she can react to a single attacker. This
 defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny
 Dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum Rogue level required to flank the character.

Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal  blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll--if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks such as a dragon's breath weapon or
a fireball, henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue (such as one who is bound, unconscious, or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue's attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4696[/ATTACH]

Comments - On paper it looks cool. But in reality the definitions of the Rogue do not match the gameplay. While the emphasis on avoiding traps, and finding taps, and evading damage is clearly part of the narrative, they don't mesh well with the definition of the Rogue as basically being more of an adventuring spelunker with the penchant for Sneak-Attacks. Yes you CAN force the issue to where Rogues are in their element if they wanted to be "fast-talkers" - but we all know that the basic assumptions of any Rogue are to Sneak Attack and try to be stealthy with all the concerns and specifications that curtail those activities even within their special abilities. Let's be real - your goal is to be the guy Sneak Attacking as much as possible leveraging the Battlemat rules for Flanking. You can do more, it's true, but since half your abilities revolve around finding, detecting and removing traps... that hardly speaks towards the "spectrum" of other rogue-concepts that have nothing to do with these things. Yet... here you are with a sudden knowledge of Trapsmithing in a game where Traps and their construction is mostly useless. You're there to get your BIG Sneak Attack and make it count as much as possible.

Pathfinder Rogue
Defined as: Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace lives on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues.  Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.

Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue f lanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped
by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

Combat Trick: A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat.

Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.

Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed
when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.

Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent.

Quick Disable (Ex): It takes a rogue with this ability half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round).

Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.

Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.

Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the rogue's sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.

Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.

Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered f lat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.
 
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Ref lex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action  against her. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.

Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.

Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll--if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect
active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special
ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent.

Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.

Comments: Much beefier and closer in mechanical expression to the description. However while the Pathfinder Rogue is hands down superior to the D&D3.x cousin, it's still designed to work within the 20-level spread without context to anything else in the game - or what those levels originally were meant to mean (The original 10-lvl assumption of 1e/2e - with everything else being just iterative bonuses). Because of this - what appears to be very nice abilities that would make the PFRogue really fun to play, are gated off behind 10th level, while still chained to the normal progression of all classes, forcing a famine-building scenario that ultimately makes most players go for hyper-optimization over flavor.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]

Fantasy Craft Burglar
Defined as: In a world of killing things and taking their stuff, thievery is a time-honored profession. The Burglar cuts out the middle man, using guile, stealth, and good old fashioned dirty tricks to pull off daring raids and heists -- often without drawing his weapon. He brings a powerful blend of abilities to an adventuring party, helping them overcome dangerous traps and barriers, circumvent guards, and cut through the defenses of particularly dangerous enemies. Depending on your campaign, a Burglar could be...
 A danger junkie stealing the most highly guarded prizes for the thrill alone
 A pit fighting champion relying on speed and wits to stay on top
 A ninja penetrating fortresses and manor houses to steel secrets and lives
 A criminal mastermind leading a band of cutthroats to glory and riches
 A traveling merchant fending off bandits and other peril on the road

Party Role: Specialist/Combatant. You are the pre-eminent master of stealth, casually slipping past all but the most impressive security and outwitting all but the savviest guards. You specialize in snatch and grab more than fisticuffs but you're not afraid of a scrap  when the need arises.

CLASS FEATURES
Favored Attributes: Dexterity, Wisdom
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Crafting, Haggle, Investigate, Notice, Prestidigitation, Ride, Search, Sneak, Tactics
Skill Points: 8 + Int modifier per level
Vitality: 6 + Con modifier per level
Starting Proficiencies: 3

CORE ABILITY
Dexterous: You excel at tasks requiring nimble fingers and precise eye-hand coordination. Each time you spend 1 action die to boost a Dexterity-based skill check, you roll and add the results of 2 dice (e.g. at Career Level 1, 1d4 becomes 2d4).

Class Abilities
Very, Very Sneaky: At Level 1, each time you fail an Acrobatics or Sneak check and don't suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent's check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.If you gain this ability for either skill from two or more classes, add together your levels in all classes granting the ability when determining its effect.

Evasion I: At Level 2, whenever you aren't flat-footed and make a successful Reflex save to reduce damage, you suffer no damage at all.

Evasion II: At Level 11, whenever you aren't flat-footed and fail a Reflex save to reduce damage, you suffer only 1/2 damage (rounded down).

Evasion III: At Level 19, you may forego rolling when making a Reflex save, instead setting your result to your Reflex save bonus + 10.

Bonus Feat: You're focused and cunning, engaging in larceny and assault with equal ease. At Levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19, you gain 1 additional Melee Combat or Covert feat.

Uncanny Dodge I: Your senses are supremely sharp, letting you react quickly to danger. At Level 4, you retain your Dexterity bonus to Defense (if any) even when flat-footed.

Uncanny Dodge II: At Level 8, you never become flanked.

Uncanny Dodge III: At Level 12, you gain a +4 bonus with Reflex saves made to avoid traps, as well as a +4 bonus to Defense against attacks made by traps.

Uncanny Dodge IV: At Level 16, the first time in each scene when an attack reduces you to 0 or fewer wounds, the attack instead misses you.

Uncanny Dodge V: At Level 20, you never become flat-footed and may not be targeted with Coup de Grace actions unless you're held, paralyzed, or unconscious.

Bag of Tricks: You know a hundred ways to use the shadows to your advantage. At Levels 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, you may choose 1 of the following abilities. Each of these abilities may be chosen only once.

• Bloody Mess: You inflict particularly heinous wounds. At the start of each round when an opponent is bleeding from one of your attacks, he suffers additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).

• Expertise: Choose one: Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Crafting, Haggle, Investigate, Notice, Prestidigitation, Ride, Search, Sneak, or Tactics. Taking 10 with this skill doesn't take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.

*He Did It!: When you successfully Taunt an opponent you may force him to attack any character adjacent to you (other than himself). You may use this ability a number of times per scene equal to your starting action dice.

*Look Out!: Each ally and teammate within 10 ft. who can see and hear you gains the benefits of uncanny dodge I. This does not stack with uncanny dodge abilities they already have.

* Slippery: You often trip opponents up with their own attacks. Once per round when an adjacent opponent's attack misses you by 5 or more, you may immediately attempt to Tire the opponent as a free action. You may substitute Acrobatics in place of Resolve for this action.

*Sneak Attack: You gain an additional die of sneak attack damage.

*Stick Close and Don't Make a Sound: When you make a Sneak check, a single adjacent ally or teammate may share your result. The character must remain within 10 ft. of you to retain this benefit.

*Stash it: As a free action, you may make a Stash check to hide 1 object weighing up to 1 lb. Inspection fails to find the object unless a threat or critical success is scored.

I'll Cut You!: At Level 10, each time you successfully Anticipate, Disarm, Distract, Feint, Taunt, or Tire an adjacent opponent, he must also make a Reflex save (DC 10 + the number of Covert feats you possess + your Dex modifier) or begin bleeding. At Level 20, if the opponent fails the save and is already bleeding, he is stunned for 1 round.

Prince of Thieves: You've carved out a tidy little empire for yourself. At Level 14, your maximum Prizes increase by 4 and you gain 400 Reputation that must immediately be spent  on contacts, holdings, or magic items.

Comments: Burglars are more clearly defined as *THIEVES*. They do have all the other potential possibilities mentioned in their description, just like D&D/Pathfinder Rogues, the primary difference is because the way Skills and Feats work, in conjunction with the class - it's more realized and desirable. You'll notice where the classes overlap - Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge, each step is incrementally beefier. You'll also notice as defined, Burglars have no native ability to Sneak Attack. They can pick it up as part of their Bag of Tricks skill, but they're not necessarily dedicated killers - they're *thieves* that rely on stealth. Hence their abilities focus on various failsafes to insure success. But if they want to pick up Sneak Attack - they can.

I should note here - Sneak Attack in this game is *way* nastier than in D&D/PF because if you score a Crit, damage bypasses Vitality(HP) and goes directly to Wounds (Con score). Any character with access to Sneak Attack (and there are several) can very easily kill most characters on a good roll (and burning an Action Die). So even though Sneak Attack is a secondary function at best for Burglars, the fact they can get it still makes them dangerous if they want to be. Also when you combine these extreme stealth possibilities with the Feats which we'll cover later, then the possibilities really get wild. Note their rapid progression with Bonus Feats. This alone can make a Burglar *extremely* dangerous in combat if the player wants to go that route.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4698[/ATTACH]

Quote from: VisionStorm;1140893The first issue I have is that they use a bonus die type that increases based on your level, which might seem like a sensible thing on the surface, except that higher level characters need them less than lower level characters do. So what's the point of gating the higher die types for higher levels when you already have higher ability modifiers at that point? But lower level characters who still have crap modifiers only get +1d4? Rrright...

A couple things. First, the number curve in Fantasy Craft isn't nearly as ridiculous as in 3.x or PF. In FC, you don't need an 18+ to be effective at your job. I'd personally suggest at least a 14 in your most important stat starting out, but even if you do 12s across the board you'll be okay. Also, enemies scale to your level(by default; there is a Campaign Quality that changes this, but that's in a much later section that I'm sure tenbones will get to eventually), so in most respects mathematically your need for Action Dice remains the same. However, some classes get additional abilities that require Action Dice to activate, and due to the way HP increases linearly the Vitality portion of HP can get ridiculous after level adjustments. Meaning you'll have to chip away at a huge block of Vitality, try switching to other damage types which you may or may not be proficient in, or activate critical hits to bypass the Vitality and strike directly at the much smaller Wounds portion directly. So in those ways, your need actually grows as your level increases. And some classes get abilities that let you reduce activation costs, or not lose the die if you still fail, but these are always very narrow in application, so they'll save you some dice, but with the exception of the Soldier ability probably not a lot. And to my knowledge, only the Soldier gets access to an ability that helps with critical hit activation. You're not guaranteed to have a particular party composition, plus the ability is optional and has to be chosen from a list, so there's no way to guarantee a party of any level will actually have this ability. Those groups need to save their dice for combat situations as much as possible, and I don't like when things encourage hoarding like that. Or seem to be pushing you to have a specific class in your group when you have 20+ core class options to pick from. "You can do all these nifty things, but . . . you're really going to want to avoid doing so as much as possible, because there's this one tiny thing that can totally fuck you up if you run out. Especially if nobody chose a Soldier specifically."

Also, Action Dice explode. A d4 will explode more often. Not enough to make it better than a d6 in the long run, but it's not nearly as big a gap as it looks on the surface. And again, enemies scale, so you might have higher ability scores and stuff, but so does your opponent.

QuoteThen there's the reliance on Action Dice to trigger critical hits, which TBH, is one of the worse, most tedious and punitive critical hit mechanics I've ever seen.

I don't think it's quite that bad, at least not usually, but it seems that in some ways they want to move away from a reliance on critical hits, making them rarer but more deadly. But then do the HP bloat thing that causes you to rely on them more as your party's level increases. It sends mixed messages. I'd like some way to make Action Dice truly optional, and I'd definitely start with fixing the HP bloat, but beyond that I've got no idea what I'd do.

QuoteClass abilities being triggered by spending Action Points is also interesting, but I'm not a fan of tracking fiddly, situational class abilities with limited uses per day or requiring special resources to use. But that's mostly cuz I'm lazy that way. So I have mixed feelings on it.

And back to my main issue. Giving you tons of cool things to do with your Action Dice, but then mechanically incentivizing hoarding them for 1 purpose only. My feelings are mixed, too.

Quote from: tenbones;1140873Another note - the Soldier gets it's capstone ability at 14th-lvl. You don't have to wait until 20 like in D&D or Pathfinder. And again, I'll let the definition of the Fantasy Craft Soldier settle in. It knows exactly what it's supposed to be and the flexibility of the system lets it be anything else you as a player want on top of that.

There are actually a few design decisions that are really neat, and this is one of them! The game is designed with level 14 as the capstone in mind. For all classes. And you'll notice that Expert classes contain 10 levels, and Master classes contain 5, and all of them have a capstone ability at the final level. You can transition into an Expert class as early as level 5, and/or a Master class as early as level 10, which will place your new class's capstone ability at . . . level 14! So whether you choose to stick with your base class or go prestige, you'll get something good at level 14. Fun note: internally, and on the Crafty forums, the level 14 abilities are referred to as game-breakers. This is of course hyperbole, but they are pretty powerful, and purposely so.

Another note is on the Core Abilities. You can only ever have 2 - one basic, and one expert. Master classes don't have core abilities. This, compared with each character's increased flexibility in general makes regular(non-prestige) multi-classing less attractive. You'll have to weigh 2 things especially. The first is that if you dip into 2 or more of the same type of class(basic or expert), you won't get the additional Core Abilities. Only the one from your first class of that type. The 2nd is that any such dips will delay access to your capstone/game-breaker ability. So on the purely mechanical side, there are definite trade-offs in FC to engaging in 3.x/PF-style multiclassing. Just something to be aware of.

Quote from: tenbones;1141072*snips Rogue/Burglar info*

See, I love this! The 3.x/PF Rogue says it's versatile and made to fill many roles, but the actual class abilities that all Rogues get access to really are geared toward a particular niche. And the FC Burglar fills this role quite well, and in a very similar manner(sneak attack damage and everything!). And while you can certainly be a Burglar who's also decent at diplomacy or scouting or whatnot(with the right skill, background, and feat selections), there are classes that are made to especially excel at those other functions. Courtier for diplomacy. Explorer for dungeon delving. Scout for, well, scouting(yes, Scout can easily be seen as an alternate to Rogue or Ranger depending on your background and feat choices; it's versatile like that). And they have abilities that are meant to help with those particular tasks instead of the generic "sneak attack" that all D&D/PF Rogues get.

It's also neat to think about the various ways to build the same/similar concept. You already touched on it when talking about Backgrounds, but it really is neat. Start as Burglar with background and feat choices to make you good at whatever secondary role you choose. Or start as another class with background/feats to make you more roguish. Or depart from the D&D model entirely and just embrace your new class in some other non-roguish way. I like that if you have a good concept of who your character is and what type of stuff you want them to excel at, there's a way to build it. Probably more than one. And whatever you choose, it'll be pretty good at its job. That's another thing. With every class ability being useful pretty much forever, every feat attractive, and the number inflation not nearly as severe as in 3.x/PF, it's really difficult to totally hose your character. I have a feeling even Abserd(please somebody get the reference; if you don't, the name is a link) could fare pretty well in FC.

Quote from: tenbones;1141072I should note here - Sneak Attack in this game is *way* nastier than in D&D/PF because if you score a Crit, damage bypasses Vitality(HP) and goes directly to Wounds (Con score). Any character with access to Sneak Attack (and there are several) can very easily kill most characters on a good roll (and burning an Action Die). So even though Sneak Attack is a secondary function at best for Burglars, the fact they can get it still makes them dangerous if they want to be. Also when you combine these extreme stealth possibilities with the Feats which we'll cover later, then the possibilities really get wild. Note their rapid progression with Bonus Feats.

Sneak attack damage is my #1 problem with Spycraft. At level 19, the SC Fixer gets a +9d6 damage sneak attack, which is an average of 31.5 damage. That's fine against VP, but it's obscene when applied to WP. And that's before base weapon damage, bonuses from strength, and bonuses from any action dice spent. Even at level 11, the Fixer does +5d6 (17.5 average) on a sneak attack, which is enough to drop most characters instantly.

The 3.5 Unearthed Arcana realized this. In their version of VP/WP:

QuoteFor critical hits, consider reducing the additional damage from bonus damage dice (such as a flaming sword or a rogue's sneak attack) to only 1 point per die. (Such attacks deal normal damage on noncritical hits.) That's still pretty scary when fighting a high-level rogue, but not quite as terrifying as facing the possibility of an extra 5 or 10 dice of wound point damage with a successful sneak attack critical hit.

How does FC handle this? The only defense in SC 1.0 was (ironically) the Fixer's Uncanny Dodge ability at level 8, where an opponent must be 4 levels higher in order to flank him.

EDIT: I found the answer. Helps to read things a second time. Looking over your Burglar write-up, it looks like the Burglar can buy Sneak Attack at Levels 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, for a max of +6d6 sneak attack damage at level 18. Not nearly as bad as the SC Fixer's +9d6, and since there's an opportunity cost here (by choosing sneak attack 6 times, he's missing out on some other really cool stuff) this looks balanced. Kudos to the Crafty Team for evolving their design over the years.