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Author Topic: 3e side-by-side battle- Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, Fantasy Craft walk into the Thunderdome!  (Read 3356 times)

tenbones

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Okay there's been several threads talking about transitioning to 3e, and issues with 3e Feats, to which I've responded that Fantasy Craft solves most if not all of the issues raised. So it's been my experience that a *lot* of people that are not Fantasy Craft haters or anything simply say "I don't get it." or "It's too heavy crunch". My contention is the complexity is not too far off normal Pathfinder or 3.x - it's just bound together differently which can cause most people used to 3.x/PF to throw a gear.

And let's face it - Fantasy Craft is intimidating to dive into. It's a *massive* book. But one should understand its a PHB, DMG and MM all in one book. So that's a big part of its size. And while it has art, (and it's good clean black-and-white line art) it's also fairly sparse... so it is text-dense with lots of tables.

So let me lay the ground-rules for the thread.

1) No politics. except as it pertains to your gaming tribalism. If you're a 1e fanboy (like me) and want to come in here and shoot at Fantasy Craft - perfectly fine as long as its in good faith.
2) The goal here, despite my bias, is not to force anyone to do anything. If my presentation of something doesn't suit you when we're at a particular stage of discussion, feel free to chime in.
3) Stages - I know how you nerdzerkers work, so I'm going to take this in sections. I'll highlight the sections side-by-side and open it up for discussion. Then we'll move on once we can generally agree we've presented them fairly. When we move on to the next stage/section let's try to focus on that section - but keep it open to calling back to design ideas established in the previous sections. I don't want to get bogged down on too many details about personal tastes rather than sticking to design function pros/cons.
4) Bias. I like Fantasy Craft. But I don't run it, have no interest in running it (or any other version of d20) in the foreseeable future. I did a lot of designwork for 3.x and ran PF for years as well as 5e. I literally have no dog in the hunt to prove your favorite edition is shit. My goal here is to hoist them up for autopsy and put any mysteries about Fantasy Craft to rest and lay them bare for us all to have a 300-page+ discussion to end all discussions about them.

Let's start with a few things that need to be said...

So What IS Fantasy Craft
Fantasy Craft was an attempt by the creators of Spy Craft (Alex Flagg and Patrick Kapera) to rebuild 3e from the ground up with an entirely different sense of mechanical rigor to the system. Every aspect of the system is inspected and re-tuned and the whole thing is deconstructed to be used as a toolkit approach to "D&D"-style (and any other style) of fantasy or gaming in general.

It is designed to bolster social-play as well as tactical-play. It has many sub-systems not inherent to D&D or Pathfinder, and at a fundamental level changes some of the assumptions that underpin what everyone assumes about either system.

Since it is a toolkit, Fantasy Craft does not have an implicit setting. It's designed for you to take your favorite setting and slap the Fantasy Craft system on top of it and get rolling. It does have a handy-dandy translation guide in the back to bring your D&D and Pathfinder characters over. This toolkit approach lets the GM create their settings and tune the system up/down/sideways so that mechanics exemplify whatever the needs of the setting requires. By the designers own words Fantasy Craft is designed to handles high-fantasy, low-fantasy, sword-and-sorcery, and anything in-between and adjacent to them. It's that flexible.

Enough prattle. Let's get this autopsy started. Kick the music.

Stage 1 Character Generation
In the Beginning, There Were Stats

Fantasy Craft, Pathfinder, 3x all use the same stats. They all have the same general ranges - in Fantasy Craft ranges are from 8 to 18 with 10 being Average. Each stat has a modifier associated with it. This is largely the same with Pathfinder and 3.x, they differ is that Fantasy Craft is a point-buy (you get 36 points to purchase stats, with a sliding scale of value), vs. the usual methods of stat-generation in 3.x and PF.

Where they *really* differ in subtle, but significant ways is what these stats govern.

Strength - Modifiers from Strength are applied to: Melee attacks, Damage from Melee, Unarmed, Hurled weapons and associated skill checks. This is uniform between Pathfinder, and D&D.

Dexterity - In D&D and Pathfinder - Dexterity modifiers are applicable to Ranged Attacks, AC, and Reflex saves and associated skill checks. in Fantasy Craft, your Dex Modifier is applied to Ranged Attacks, Initiative, Defense*, and Reflex Saves. (we'll talk about Defense later - it's basically AC... but not due to Armor).

Constitution - In D&D and Pathfinder - Constitution modifiers are applicable to HP/lvl, Fortitude Saving throws.  In D&D Constitution modifiers are applied also to Concentration checks. In Fantasy Craft - Constitution modifiers are applied to Vitality (HP), Fortitude Saves and your Constitution score dictates your starting Wounds*(We'll talk about Wounds later).

Intelligence - In D&D and Pathfinder - Intelligence scores is applicable to determining Spells Cast Per day and the Level of Spell possible. Number of languages. Number of skill points gained each level. The modifier is applied to Int-based skills. Wizards gain bonus spells based on their Intelligence score. In Fantasy Craft, Intelligence modifier governs number of skills points per level, and Knowledge Checks*(we'll examine Knowledge checks later - they're a special bonus of applying your Int mod to skills where you have special interests in called Studies).

Wisdom - In D&D and Pathfinder - Wisdom modifiers are applicable to Will Saving Throws, and skills related to the Wisdom stat. It also modifies Bonus spells for Clerics, Druids and Rangers including determining what level of Spells one can attain. In Fantasy Craft Wisdom modifies related skills, and it determines the the starting number of Arcane Spells Known+ ones Spellcasting skill (yeah this is a big deal we'll talk about later).

Charisma -  In D&D and Pathfinder - Charisma modifiers are applicable to Cha-based skill checks, Checks used to influence others. Channeling for Clerics and Paladins against Undead (Turning), and bonus spells for Bards, Paladins and Sorcerers based on their score. In Fantasy Craft - Charisma modifiers are applicable to Cha-based skill checks, as well as Lifestyle sub-system rolls (this is a subsystem for downtime and carousing and a bunch of other stuff), as well as acting a DC modifier *against* your spell saves when you cast spells at others.

Summary

Stat-ranges and values are almost identical. Modifiers are identical. Application of these modifiers are where things start to shift as Fantasy Craft plugs them into new systems and retooled systems unknown to to D&D and Pathfinder

Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom all plug into an entirely different spellcasting system. There is a social system "Lifestyle" that leverages Charisma. Intelligence rules over skillpoint acquisition and greatly impacts spellcasting because Spellcasting is a skill in Fantasy Craft - which we'll go over at length when we get to the Magic system and touch upon in the Skill system.

Feel free to discuss. Next item within the Character Gen Stage 1 is Races/Origins. I plan on pulling some 5e in here too because I think it errs closer in some ways to Fantasy Craft than the others.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 05:55:32 pm by tenbones »

LiferGamer

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For what it's worth color me intrigued.  I'm sure you'll touch on it but key questions I already have ( feel free to ignore or at least answer later)
  • is armor damage resistance?
  • is there a long or fairly broad list of skills?
  • how broad are the studies under intelligence?


Either way I will be following this, thanks.

I kind of like (and am currently running) 5e, Miss some of the things about Savage worlds, and love a less bloated skill version of gurps, so I'm curious to see how this scratches my various itches.
Your Forgotten Realms was my first The Last Jedi.

If the party is gonna die, they want to be riding and blasting/hacking away at a separate one of Tiamat's heads as she plummets towards earth with broken wings while Solars and Planars sing.

tenbones

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Quote from: LiferGamer;1138378
For what it's worth color me intrigued.  I'm sure you'll touch on it but key questions I already have ( feel free to ignore or at least answer later)
  • is armor damage resistance?
  • is there a long or fairly broad list of skills?
  • how broad are the studies under intelligence?

Either way I will be following this, thanks.

I kind of like (and am currently running) 5e, Miss some of the things about Savage worlds, and love a less bloated skill version of gurps, so I'm curious to see how this scratches my various itches.

Short replies but yeah we'll dig deep into it -

1) Armor absorbs damage in Fantasy Craft. Defense is based on Dex Modifier plus Class Defense bonus. Some classes are naturally better at defending in combat than others.
2) Skill list for Fantasy Craft clocks in at 20 skills. But there are Interests, and Knowledges that supplement these things for more "free form" play. We'll dig into those specifics when we cover skills in this Character generation section
3) Studies are limitless. They're literally topics you and the GM agree based on the setting and your character's background that your character has some kind of academic interest in. The beauty of this is that *any* character can have them and apply them in-game. A soldier might study armor-construction - so when faced with a situation where this study might be applicable to any other skill-check they can apply the bonus. The real strength of it is you can customize the scope of these studies as you see fit with the GM and it can really add color to your character.

Armchair Gamer

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Quote from: tenbones;1138364
Feel free to discuss. Next item within the Character Gen Stage 1 is Races/Origins. I plan on pulling some 5e in here too because I think it errs closer in some ways to Fantasy Craft than the others.

   Looking forward to this. The Races section is where Fantasy Craft really starts to set itself apart from the pack.

VisionStorm

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Based on what's been posted so far, I love the idea of a Defense score separate from armor as DR. This has long been an issue of mine with D&D, since I've never liked armor mechanics that made you harder to hit, as opposed to reducing damage. This places more emphasis on the ability to dodge or deflect attacks as a primary defense, while keeping armor as an additional layer of defense in the event that you fail to evade attack.

I'm also inclined to like the changes made to spell casting attributes, although I have mixed feelings about them. On the plus side I've always considered Wisdom to be the central attribute associated with any type of mystical practice (assuming that we're going with the 6 attribute set traditionally used in D&D, which I think has its issues, but that's another matter). And I also like the idea of making Charisma the mental equivalent of "Strength", determining how strong your spells are (spell DC).

This setup makes the three metal attributes more analogous with the physical attributes: Strength/Charisma, Dexterity/Intelligence, and Constitution/Wisdom. And also forces spell casters to weigh their choices between all three mental attributes, much the same way that warriors must weigh their choices between Strength, Dexterity or Constitution. The issue with this, however, is that Dexterity and Constitution have always been important choices for EVERYONE, including spell casters (specially low HP, unarmored mages). Now they have to split their selections between ALL mental attributes, plus Dexterity and Constitution as well.

So this change, while interesting, is ultimately more punitive for spell casters than other characters. At least depending on how much impact each of these attributes have on spell casting.

tenbones

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Races/Species/Origins

D&D 3.5 - Standard race templates have ability adjustments for varying core races. All of the bonuses are either +2 or -2 with the exception of the Half-Orc which has two stats that have -2 penalties. Each race has the benefit of a "Favored Class" which removes XP penalties for multi-classing as long as the Favored Class is the only other class dipped into. Each race has specific racial traits designed to highlight cultural aspects as well as physical qualities.

Core Races for D&D 3.5
Human: No ability adjustments, Favored class Any. Traits: Medium size. Base speed 30-ft. 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 additional skill point at every level. Humans get 1 extra Feat at first level.

Dwarf: +2 Con, -2 Cha. Favored class Fighter. Traits: Medium size, Base speed 20-ft but can move full speed with medium/heavy armor, Darkvision 60-feet, +4 Dodge vs. Giant subtype monsters, +1 bonus on attack rolls vs. orc and goblinoid subtypes. +2 bonus to saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities. +4 bonus on resisting Bull Rush or Trip attacks while standing. +2 on Perception checks relating to "stonework". Proficiency with dwarven waraxes and urgroshes which are not treated as "exotic". +2 bonus to Appraise checks relating to stone or metal items. +2 bonus to Craft checks relating to metal or stonework.

Elf: +2 Dex, -2 Con. Favored class Wizard. Traits: Medium size. Base speed 30-ft. Immune to magical sleep effects. +2 bonus to saves vs. enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision. Elves are proficient in longswords, rapiers, longbow, and shortbow. +2 bonus on all Listen, Search and Spot checks. Can make a free Search check if they pass within 5-feet of a secret or concealed door.

Gnome: +2 Con, -2 Str. Favored class Bard. Traits: Small size (+1 AC and +1 to attacks). +4 bonus to Hide checks. Base speed 20-ft. Can only lift/carry 25% of Medium characters and use only small weapons. Proficiency with gnomish hook-hammers. +2 bonus to saving throws vs. Illusions. +1 Difficulty to any Illusions cast against other creatures Saves. +1 bonus to hit vs. Kobolds and goblinoid subtypes. +4 AC vs. Giant-types. +2 bonus on Listen checks. +2 bonus on Craft Alchemy. Spell like Abilities 1/day: Speak with Animals. If their Cha. is 11+ they also get Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Presitidigitation.

Half-elf: No ability adjustments, Favored class Any. Traits: Medium size. Base movement 30-ft. Immunity to Sleep effects. +2 bonus to saves vs. enchantment effects. Low Light vision. +1 bonus to Listen, Search, Spot checks. +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Considered "elven" for the purposes of using elven subtype gear.

Half-orc: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Favored class Barbarian. Traits: Medium size. Base speed 30-ft. Darkvision 60-ft. Can use Orc-specific items.

Halfling: +2 Dex, -2 Str. Favored class Rogue. Traits: Small size (+1 AC and +1 to attacks). +4 bonus to Hide checks. Can only lift/carry 25% of Medium characters and use only small weapons. 20-ft speed. +2 saves vs. fear effects. +1 bonus to all saves. +2 bonus to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. +1 bonus to attack with slings and thrown weapons. +2 bonus to Listen checks.


Core Races for Pathfinder - Standard race templates for Pathfinder is slightly more detailed. Each race has ability modifiers that vary more. Favored classes in Pathfinder grant +1 HP or +1 Skill point if the character levels up in one of those Favored classes.

Dwarves: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Traits: Medium size, Base speed 20-ft, +4 Dodge vs. Giant subtype monsters, +1 bonus on attack rolls vs. orc and goblinoid subtypes. +2 bonus to saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities. +4 bonus on resisting Bull Rush or Trip attacks while standing. +2 on Perception checks relating to "stonework". Proficiency with battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers and any weapon with the "dwarven" descriptor.

Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con. Traits: Medium size. Base speed 30-ft. Low-light vision. Immune to magical Sleep effects. +2 bonus saves vs. enchantment effects. +2 bonus to overcome Magic Resistance. +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks. +2 bonus to Perception checks. Proficiency with longbows, longswords, rapiers and shortbows.

Gnomes: +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Str. Traits: Small sized. +1 bonus to AC, -1 to CMB/CMD, +4 to Stealth checks. 20-ft base speed. Low-Light Vision. +4 AC vs. Giant subtype creatures. +1 Difficulty to any Illusions cast against other creatures Saves. +1 bonus to hit vs. Kobolds and goblinoid subtypes. +4 AC vs. Giant-types. +2 bonus on Listen checks. +2 bonus on Craft Alchemy. Spell like Abilities 1/day: Speak with Animals. If their Cha. is 11+ they also get Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Presitidigitation. +1 attack bonus against repitilian or goblinoid subtypes. +2 saves vs. Illusions. +2 bonus to Perception checks. +2 bonus to a singular Craft or Profession skill. Proficiency with any "gnome" subtype weapon.

Half-Elves: +2 to one attribute. Traits: Medium sized. 30-ft base speed. Low Light Vision. Free Skill Focus feat. Immune to magical Sleep effects. +2 save vs. enchantment effects. +2 bonus to Perception checks. Two Favored classes.

Half-Orcs: +2 to one attribute. 30-ft base speed. Darkvision 60-ft. +2 bonus to Intimidate checks. Count as Human or Orc for the purposes of effects related to race. 1/day can fight at 0 or lower HP for 1 round. Proficient with falchions, greataxes and any orc-weapon subtype.

Halflings: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str. Small sized. +1 bonus to AC, -1 to CMB/CMD, +4 to Stealth checks. 20-ft base speed.+2 bonus saves vs fear effects. +1 bonus on all saves. +2 bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks. Proficiency with slings and any halfling weapon subtype.

Human: +2 to one attribute. 30-ft base speed. One bonus Feat. +1 Skill point at 1st level and every level thereafter.

WHEW. okay, both Pathfinder and D&D3.5 have *very* similar race choices and traits. The differences that exist are more due to skill-consolidation options which amount to the same thing. Where real differences exist like stat-bonuses being higher with Pathfinder... is significant... but they're really close. While not considered core - let's stipulate that we acknowledge that all the races in Pathfinder and D&D 3.x have sub-species, but as they're not included in the core I'm not going to penalize them for it. But it matters because Fantasy Craft... has all of them and more. We'll pull out their counterparts as necessary in discussion if people want to.

Fantasy Craft
So now we get to Fantasy Craft. Before I start it needs to be explained that your starting character has an Origin - which is your Species wedded to your Specialty. Species basically means "race" in 3.x/PF parlance. Specialty is like "Background" in 5e, but has a *lot* more weight, which we'll get into when we start talking about Class. It's relevant here because part of picking your Species involves picking your Specialty which grants you various mechanical bonuses. So for now - I'm going to stick to Species.

Each Species has sub-species for each one. In order to play one of these sub-species - it requires a Feat. These Species Feats will be covered when we get to Feats. Feats are much more plentiful in this game than D&D3.x or PF. So it's not a "gate" to keep players away or to tax them, as the Species Feats are meaty, and they often open up other beefy Feats specific to that sub-species. The design purpose to play these things with intent - much like people love to lament the power-level of the Drow vs. other Elves. This is a clean justification for that power boost, because you're choosing to buy it in lieu of other options.

Fantasy Craft Species templates provide Attribute bonuses/penalties. Traits. Special abilities or in the case of Humans - a Talent. On paper the attribute bonuses may not seem "equal" - but that's because the Species are balanced across their other abilities and penalties inherent to each species. Attribute penalties and bonuses have far larger impact on the character class choices because of the subtle differences that attributes affect downstream.

All Species have a Type template, which sets up means of locomotion, speed, and special abilities associated for that Type - like Beast, or Lizard, or Folk (which is the common term for "standard" fantasy races

Each Species has their version of "Favored Class" but it's applied to Specialty, not class. It's called Iconic Specialty. If your PC chooses an Iconic Specialty, you gain that Specialty's bonus Feat. We'll cover Specialties and Interests and Alignment when we get to Classes.  

The point I'm trying to make here is *all* of these elements are much more intimate to your PC creation process than simply choosing a Class, and Race and bingo-bango, as we'll see. (it's a lot to cover - I'll edit this page tomorrow and fill it in). If anyone wants me to fill in the cultural assumptions as written about these races just ask - they're pretty interesting, especially given the current climate of gaming. Keep in mind - these cultural considerations are what inform the Species abilities, so you might be a little confused as to why they have the abilities they have. I'll discuss some of the particulars after the list.

Core Races for Fantasy Craft

Drake: +2 Int OR Str, -2 Dex. Large Beast. Maximum Wounds is Con x 1.5, Base speed 30-ft ground. Flying 50-ft. Breath Weapon - 2d6 + Con modifier, Ref Save for half-damage. Iconic Specialties: Acrobat, Barbarian, Bard, Fist Guardian, Lord, Mystic, Rogue, Sorcerer, or Warden. +2 Interests, Natural Attack (Bite and Claw I - upgradeable with Feats). Splinter Race Feats: Elemental Heritage (Fire, Ice, Wind or other elemental drake), Truescale (Cloud, Mountain, Swamp or other terrain drake). Otherwise you're considered a "lesser Drake".

Dwarf: +4 Con, -2 Dex. Medium sized. Base speed 20-ft. Banned Actions: May not use Kick tricks (we'll cover tricks in combat), or make Jump or Swim checks (they're dense and sink like rocks). May choose 1 skill to raise the cap +5 over one's level. Iconic Classes: Keeper or Soldier - if you have a class higher than your levels in either of these classes your starting Action Dice is decreased by 2 (we'll cover Action Dice later). Improved Stability: Dwarves are considered 1 Size category larger for carrying capacity, Trample attacks, and resisting Bull Rush and Trip attempts as long as they're standing on the ground. + Con modifier bonus to all poison and disease saves. Low Light Vision, Thick Hide 3 - dwarves get 3 points of Damage Reduction as long as they're not wearing armor. If they are - they get the better value. If they get Thick Hide from other sources, these effects stack. Splinter Race Feats: Hill Born (hill dwarf), Lava Born (magma dwarf). If you don't choose these you're a Stone Born (Mountain dwarf).

Elf:+4 Wisdom, -2 Con. Medium sized Fey. Base speed 40-ft. Burden of Ages - any heals to your Vitality are halved. Elf sight - Visual range increments are Wisdom Score x 80. Ignore range penalties for 2nd and 4th range increments while Aiming. Iconic classes: Sage or Scout, if you have a class higher than your levels in either of these classes your starting Action Dice is decreased by 2. Iconic Specialties: Adept, Archer, Aristocrat, Artisan, Druid, Fencer, Lord, Ranger, Vanguard, or Wizard. Light Sleeper - you're never "flat-footed" while sleeping. +1 Appearance (social stat we'll talk about later). Sharp hearing - hearing range increments are equal to Wisdom score x 10-ft, and elves may always act during a surprise round unless they are deafened. Splinter Race Feats: Hart Nation (Wood elf), Owl Nation (Gray elf), Spider Nation (Dark elf), unless you choose one of these, you're a 'High elf'.

Giant: No stat modifiers. Large sized. Reach of 2. Max Wounds are Constitution score x 1.5, Base speed 50-ft. Hurled Proficiency. Improved Stability - Giants are considered 1 Size category larger for carrying capacity, Trample attacks, and resisting Bull Rush and Trip attempts as long as they're standing on the ground. Natural Attack Trample I attack, this ability is upgradeable. Sterner Stuff - Keen quality attacks are decreased by 4 (this means critical hit threat range due to Keen are lowered). Splinter Race Feats: Elemental Heritage (Fire, Frost, Stone, or other elemental giant) otherwise you're a Hill Giant.

Goblin: +2 Strength, -2 Cha. Small sized. Base speed 20-ft. Maximum Wounds is Constitution score x 2/3 round up. +1 Defense (AC), Ambush Basics Feat, Iconic Classes: Lancer or Priest. Light Sensitive -20 Fortitude save or be Blinded for d6 rounds. Tenacious - +1 Vitality per level gained. Splinter Race Feats - Skull Tribe, Blood Tribe, Bone Tribe, Fang Tribe, Iron Tribe. If you choose none, you're just a 'cave goblin'.

Human: No attribute modifier. Medium Sized. Base speed 30-ft. Humans get 1 Talent (These are special for Humans and we'll go over these at the end of this list). Splinter Race Feats: Angelic Heritage, Devilish Heritage, Draconic Heritage, Faerie Heritage, Elemental Heritage. Unless you choose one of these you're a True Blood Human.

Ogre: +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Large sized. Reach of 2. Max Wounds are Constitution score x 1.5, Base speed of 30-ft. Banned Actions: May not make Influence, Outmaneuver or Tumble checks.  Maximum Intimidate and Athletics ranks are +5 over current level max. Iconic Specialties: Artisan, Barbarian, Criminal, Fighter, Gladiator, Guardian, Nomad, Shaman, Sorcerer or Tribesman. Ignores first Fatigue or Shaken condition gained in each scene. Disposition checks against non-Ogres is -10. Splinter Race Feats: Fire Brave (Oni), Sea Brave (Merrow), Stone Brave (Troll), unless you choose one of these, you're an Earth Brave (Plain ol' Ogre).

Orc: +3 Str, +3 Con, -3 Int. Medium sized. Base speed 30-ft. Can always act on Surprise Rounds. Banned Actions: Cannot make a Calm or Influence check. Maximum Intimidate and Survival ranks are +5 over current level. Grueling Combatant - adjacent opponents suffer 2-points of subdual damage if they miss you. Light Sensitive - -20 Fortitude save in brightly lit area or be blinded d6 rounds. Iconic Classes: Burglar or Soldier. Splinter Race Feats - Skull Tribe, Blood Tribe, Bone Tribe, Fang Tribe, Iron Tribe. If you choose none, you're a 'Black blade'.

Pech: (Pechs are any of the shorty races - halflings, gnomes etc) +3 Dex. Small sized. Base speed 30-ft. Maximum Wounds is Constitution score x 2/3 round up/ Maximum Resolve ranks are capped +5 over current level, Hearty Appetite - gains benefit from the first 2 food and drink consumed in a day (okay this take some explaining - in Fantasy Craft regular consumption of food - one meal and drink - will have beneficial effects based on the kind of food. This is a penalty, because Pechs eat a lot in order to get those benefits. I'll cover this when we get to gear). Hurled Proficiency. Iconic Specialties: Acrobat, Adventurer, Bard, Cavalier, Corsair, Merchant, Physician, Rogue, Swindler, or Warden. Splinter Race Feats: Farstride Folk (Hairfoot), Quick-Finger Folk (Gnomes). Unless you choose one of these your'e a 'Lightfoot'.

Rootwalker: Rootwalkers are Groots/Treants/Plant-people) No attribute modifier. Large Biped Plant. Reach of 2. Max Wounds are Constitution score x 1.5. All fire-damage is doubled against you. Iconic Classes: Explorer or Keeper. Free Iron Will Feat. Rootwalkers are never "flatfooted" when sleeping. Being play with -2 proficiences (min 0). -2 Reflex saves when flanked. +5 bonus to Blend/Stealth checks in natural terrain. Thick Hide 2 - Natural damage reduction of 2, stacks with other Thick Hide sources. Racial Feats: New Leaf (Evergreen, ironwood, others) Unless you choose this you're a 'Deeproot'.

Saurian: +2 Dex, +2 to any 1 other Attribute, -2 to any one Attribute. Medium sized. Base speed 30-ft. +1 Defense (AC). Cold Blooded: can eat once per day, but suffers 1 additional die of damage from cold and gain the sickened condition for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 of the cold damage  taken. Low-Light Vision. Natural Attack: Bite and Tailslap II (d8) These attacks can be upgraded with Feats. Splinter Race Feats: Draconic Heritage (Draconian), Jungle Clutch (Chamelon) Swamp Clutch (frogman), unless you choose one of these, you're just a 'Lizard-folk'

Unborn: (Basically any kind of construct: Undead, Automaton, golem, living material, Warforged etc): +2 to any 1 attribute, -4 Cha. Medium sized biped construct. Base speed 20-ft. Electricity does double damage to you. You suffer 1 additional die from falling damage which gains +20 Keen (auto-crit). You being play with -2 proficiencies. You suffer a -2 penalty to all Reflex saves when Flanked. Splinter Race Feats: Special Construction (clay, clockwork, crystal, others). Unless you choose this you're a 'Steel Golem'. Construct condition bonus grants: immune to sneak attack, stress, and subdual damage, as well as poison and disease. Can’t fall unconscious and never gains the bleeding, enraged, fatigued, fixated, frightened, paralyzed, shaken, or sickened conditions.

Whew! okay that's the Fantasy Craft core list. Some observations.

1) While cursory glance will make everyone nod and go "Yep, I see all the regular stuff, and some weird shit." Closer examination will reveal many of these races have roots that go deeper into the system which we haven't gotten to yet. There is far more variety available within each Species that goes far beyond the flat "generic" assumption of the name (or the D&D/PF core races). Since there is no implied setting, they figuratively tossed the kitchen-sink as racial possibilities for YOU as the GM to express your game in any manner possible.

2) Splinter Races - These feats are not just simple mechanical benefits. They have an entirely different implied assumption to the character. For examples, Saurians are Lizardmen - check. But if you take the Splinter Race Feat "Jungle Clutch" you're a member of the Khamai chameleon folk, that gains chameleon powers, and bonuses to climbing with an assumed culture different than the standard Lizard man. Or the Angelic Heritage for Humans, which is their nod to the Aasimar which also has a host of benefits from spending your Feat there.

You'll also note in the core rules there are no Half-orcs or Half-elves. There are rules for them out there in supplementary material but they're largely just Blood Feats presented in the Adventurers Companion that let you go way beyond just being half-orcs or half-elves. They have Gobling blooded, Elf blooded, Orc, Dragon and a whole bunch of stuff. It just didn't make it into the Core rules. That said - Adventurers Companion is indispensable if you're going to use Fantasy Craft, imo. Too much glorious stuff in there.

3) The connections that go deeper into the system - Specialties, Iconic Classes, which we'll dive into during the Class section, is already setting up that connective tissue here. This creates a massively larger variety of possibilities that haven't even yet begun to plug into the core system and we're only at Race selection.

The differences here are that 3.x and PF silo their sub-systems internally. Most of the race options are vanilla, and designed to be balanced conservatively inward. There is very little outward connection to the deeper aspects of the core mechanics other than Preferred Class which only extends to Multi-classing benefits, with minor benefits for singular use in Pathfinder (+1 HP/Skill point). Whereas in Fantasy Craft they're setting your character up with a lot of handholds to customize your character mechanically with the narrative power of 5e's Backgrounds (in FC it's Specialties) cooked in. So let's get on with that in the next set step.

Human Talents (I'll work on this tonight. It's a lot)
Human Talents are special sub-section because they don't really have a corresponding system in Pathfinder or D&D3.x. Basically Human Talents are SUPER beefy "feats" that you have to purchase at Character Generation. They are *powerful* and designed to really make your Human "pop" in terms of how you envision them and to make humans desirable to play. The synergy options you get from Talents and Classes should be obvious, especially when we get to the Classes section.

The List
Adaptable
You can find a solution to almost any problem and it’s usually wholly unexpected.
• Attributes: No modifiers
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Grace under Pressure: You gain a +3 bonus with any roll you boost with an action die. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at Levels 6, 11, and 16.
• Inquisitive Mind: You gain 2 additional Interests.
• Origin Skills: Choose 2 additional Origin skills.

Agile
Your body is quicker than most eyes!
• Attributes: +2 Dexterity
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Dexterity-based skill checks.
• Natural Elegance: Your Appearance bonus increases by +1.
• Parry: You gain the Parry trick

Charismatic
Your natural presence is almost overwhelming.
• Attributes: +2 Charisma
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Charming: Once per session, you may improve the Disposition of any 1 non-adversary NPC by 5.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Charisma-based skill checks.
• Encouragement: Once per scene, you may speak to 1 of your teammates for 1 minute to grant them a +1 morale bonus with saving throws until the end of the current scene.

Crusading
You focus is… intense.
Requirements: Alignment
• Attributes: +2 to any 1 attribute, –2 to any 1 attribute
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Crunch!: Your Strength-based damage rolls inflict 1 additional damage.
• Iron Will: You gain the Iron Will feat
• Higher Calling: Characters with opposing Alignments suffer a –1 penalty with skill checks targeting or opposed by you.
• Sterner Stuff: The keen quality of each attack made against you decreases by 4

Cunning
You’re a survivor who considers every angle and how to exploit it.
• Attributes: +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Charming: Once per session, you may improve the Disposition of any 1 non-adversary NPC by 5.
• Cheap Shot: You gain the Cheap Shot trick
• Sharp Mind: You gain 1 additional skill point per level.
• Tenacious Spirit: You gain 1 additional vitality per level.

Educated
You enjoy all the advantages of a higher education.
• Attributes: +2 Intelligence, –2 Dexterity
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Broad Learning: You gain 2 additional Studies
• If I Recall...: You gain a +5 bonus with Knowledge checks
• Linguist: You gain 2 additional Languages
• Slow and Steady: The cost to activate your Downtime errors and those of your teammates increases by 2 action dice.

Gifted
You’ve found your calling... and mastered it.
• Attributes: +2 to any 1 attribute, –2 to any 1 attribute
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Basic Skill Mastery: You gain the Basic Skill Mastery feat
• Limited Proficiencies: You begin with play with 2 fewer proficiencies (minimum 0).
• Origin Skill: Choose 1 additional Origin skill.
• Sharp Mind: You gain 1 additional skill point per level

Grizzled
You’ve survived things other folk can barely imagine.
• Attributes: +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Agile Defense: Your base Defense increases by 1.
• Last Chance: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost any save.
• Rock Solid: You gain 1 additional wound per level.

Hardy
You can feel the blows, but they don’t really bother you much.
• Attributes: +2 Constitution
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Constitution-based skill checks.
• Thick Hide 2: You’re considered to be wearing partial armor that provides Damage Reduction 2. This DR does not stack with other armor (only the best protection applies). If you gain thick hide from multiple sources, your hide offers the highest single DR value + 1 per additional hide benefit (e.g. thick hide 4, thick hide 3, and thick hide 1 offer DR 6).
• Unbreakable: Each time you suffer attribute impairment, it decreases by 1 (minimum 0).

Industrious
You always put your time to good use.
• Attributes: +1 Constitution
• Charming: Once per session, you may improve the Disposition of any 1 non-adversary NPC by 5.
• Encouragement: Once per scene, you may speak to 1 of your teammates for 1 minute to grant them a +1 morale bonus with saving throws until the end of the current scene.
• Enlightened Crafting: Your maximum Crafting rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Yeoman’s Work: You gain the Yeoman’s Work feat

Intelligent
You’ve always been the sharpest knife in the drawer.
• Attributes: +2 Intelligence
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Intelligence-based skill checks.
• Split Decision: As a full action, you may simultaneously take 2 Ready actions, each with separate triggers and reactions. After the first trigger occurs, the other Ready
action is lost.

Methodical
Your thinking may sometimes seem slow and ponderous to others, but you tend to uncover the truth of things with few missteps.
• Attributes: +1 Wisdom
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Enlightened Haggle: Your maximum Haggle rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Enlightened Investigate: Your maximum Investigate rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Free Hint: Once per session, you may request a hint from the GM. If he refuses, you gain 1 bonus action die.
• Origin Skill: Choose 1 additional Origin skill.
• Slow and Steady: The cost to activate your Downtime errors and those of your teammates increases by 2 action dice.

Nimble
You’re light on your feet and quick to avoid harm.
• Attributes: +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength
• Base Speed: 40 ft.
• Called Shot: You gain the Called Shot trick
• Cat Fall: You suffer 1 less die of damage from falling.
• Enlightened Acrobatics: Your maximum Acrobatics rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Last Chance: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost any save.

Ruthless
Whatever it takes, you’re always up for the challenge.
• Attributes: +1 to any 1 attribute, –1 to any 1 attribute
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Always Ready: You may always act during surprise rounds.
• Cheap Shot: You gain the Cheap Shot trick
• Menacing Threat: You may Threaten up to 3 opponents at once. You roll only once for the action, while each opponent rolls to resist separately.

Savage
You’re untamed, born and bred far outside civilization.
• Attributes: +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence
• Base Speed: 40 ft.
• Enlightened Survival: Your maximum Survival rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Great Fortitude: You gain the Great Fortitude feat
• Lean Season: You require only 1 common meal per day.

Savvy
You always have a plan... or at least look like you do.
• Attributes: +2 Wisdom, –2 Strength
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Grace under Pressure: You gain a +3 bonus with any roll you boost with an action die. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at Levels 6, 11, and 16.
• If I Recall...: You gain a +5 bonus with Knowledge checks

Single-Minded
Your focus and determination cannot be swayed.
• Attributes: +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Crunch!: Your Strength-based damage rolls inflict 1 additional damage.
• Enlightened Resolve: Your maximum Resolve rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Relentless Attack: You gain the Relentless Attack trick
• War of Attrition: You may Tire up to 3 opponents at once. You roll only once for the action, while each opponent rolls to resist separately

Stern
When worn and haggard from your trials, you reveal a core a tough as iron.
• Attributes: +2 Strength, –2 Constitution
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Grueling Combatant: Each time an adjacent opponent attacks you and misses, he suffers 2 points of subdual damage.
• Light Sleeper: Sleeping is never a Terminal Situation for you.
• No Pain: You ignore the first fatigued or shaken condition you gain in each scene.
• Relentless Attack: You gain the Relentless Attack trick
• Unbreakable: Each time you suffer attribute impairment, it decreases by 1 (minimum 0)

Striking
Your good looks set hearts aflutter and keep the poets in business.
• Attributes: +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Celebrated: Your Legend increases by 2.
• Engaging Diversion: You may Distract up to 3 opponents at once. You roll only once for the action, while each opponent rolls to resist separately.
• Natural Elegance: Your Appearance bonus increases by +1.

Strong
If oxen could arm-wrestle you’d still win every time.
• Attributes: +2 Strength
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Strength-based skill checks.
• Improved Stability: You’re considered 1 Size category larger for carrying capacity, Trample attacks, and resisting Bull Rush and Trip attempts so long as you are standing firmly on the ground and not climbing, flying, or riding.
• Shove: You gain the Shove trick

Svelte
You have a predator’s build and natural magnetism.
• Attributes: +2 Charisma, –2 Wisdom
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Charming: Once per session, you may improve the Disposition of any 1 non-adversary NPC by 5.
• Enlightened Athletics: Your maximum Athletics rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Rock Solid: You gain 1 additional wound per level.
• Shove: You gain the Shove trick

Unpredictable
Your quicksilver thoughts leave most people reeling.
• Attributes: +1 Intelligence
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Lightning Reflexes: You gain the Lightning Reflexes feat (
• Mix-Up: You gain the Mix-Up trick
• Split Decision: As a full action, you may simultaneously take 2 Ready actions, each with separate triggers and reactions. After the first trigger occurs, the other Ready action is lost.

Vigilant
You’re always on your guard.
• Attributes: +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Always Ready: You may always act during surprise rounds.
• Enlightened Notice: Your maximum Notice rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Lightning Reflexes: You gain the Lightning Reflexes feat

Wily
People would like you more if you didn’t say ‘I told you so’ quite so often.
• Attributes: +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Agile Defense: Your base Defense increases by 1.
• Engaging Diversion: You may Distract up to 3 opponents at once. You roll only once for the action, while each opponent rolls to resist separately.
• Enlightened Tactics: Your maximum Tactics rank increases to your Career Level + 5.
• Mix-Up: You gain the Mix-Up trick

Wise
When you speak, everyone falls silent to hear it.
• Attributes: +2 Wisdom
• Base Speed: 30 ft.
• Double Boost: You may spend and roll 2 action dice to boost Wisdom-based skill checks.
• Free Hint: Once per session, you may request a free hint from the GM. If he refuses, you gain 1 bonus action die.
• Inquisitive Mind: You gain 2 additional Interests

So there you go. Humans got JUICE.

In a side-by-side comparison Fantasy Craft Races are already more dynamic mechanically, and you have much wider range of differentiation simply based on assumed Feat choices (which I'd include for D&D 3.x and Pathfinder). This will become even more apparent once we move to the next section on Classes and Specialties, then Skills.

We'll do a side-by-side comparison once we have all the basic Character Generation sections posted and take a nice long look at their capabilities. I'd like to open up concept suggestions for these comparisons -

Feel free to get buck wild, and we'll see what we can whip up. But next on the list will be Classes and Specialties (Backgrounds in 5e).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 05:58:26 pm by tenbones »

estar

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I will say it again it is unfortunate that the open content for Fantasycraft is so muddled. Do you have any pull with Crafty Games? It would be great if they could release an SRD for 3PP to use.

Addition
OK so let's look at this

Here is their declaration of open content.
DESIGNATION OF OPEN CONTENT: Subject to the Product Identity designation above, all portions of Fantasy Craft are designated as Open Game Content.

Here is their declaration of product identity.

DESIGNATION OF PRODUCT IDENTITY: The following items are hereby designated as Product Identity in accordance with section 1(e) of the Open Game License, version 1.0a: Any and all Fantasy Craft logos and identifying marks and trade dress, including all Fantasy Craft product and product line names including but not limited to The Fantasy Craft Rulebook, The Fantasy Craft World Builder’s Guide, The Fantasy Craft Primer, Call to Arms, Cloak and Dagger, Epoch, Godspawn, Sunchaser, The Darkest Hour, The Cleansing of Black Spur, the Toolkit series, website support materials (including, but not limited to, all free game support items such as adventures and the Errata Document), and all Fantasy Craft logos; any elements of any Fantasy Craft setting, including but not limited to capitalized names, monster names, magic item names, spell names, organization names, Faction names, project names, characters, monsters, magic items, spells, historic events, and organizations; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, documents within the game world, quotes from characters or documents, and dialogue; and all artwork, logos, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, and poses, except such elements that already appear in the d20 System Reference Document and are already OGC by virtue of appearing there. The above Product Identity is not Open Game Content.


So it will be a pain renaming everything and excising the above elements but once you are done the result is a set of rules that will people can use to push forward the type of system that Fantasycraft represents. It been a year since we talked about it last and browsing their forum it appears to be a mostly dead system. So what you have to lose?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 07:37:11 am by estar »

Brad

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Posting so I can follow along and get notifications...

tenbones

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Yeah, you're not wrong. I don't have any connection to Pat or Alex other than occasional correspondence electronically. Frankly, having dived pretty deep into their fan-driven design-space, where many of those super-fans know the system probably as well as the designers... your words strike particular hard here. Because if they did put out a good SRD, Fantasy Craft might still be moving along. But the loss of momentum on their magic-system opus which... let's say, became a debacle due to the design requirements that took a toll on the two-man company trying to keep their other lines floating, while Fantasy Craft's impact was next to nil on the D&D fanbase, made it worse. If anything that SRD would have been a tremendous lifeline for the system.

But that's just me (and you) talking from the bleachers... I think you're very solid ground. If my intent were to resurrect Fantasy Craft specifically (it's not) I would contact Pat and Alex and do just that. Given the current outlook about D&D3.x on the gaming scene as a whole, I'd rather look at Fantasy Craft as a design-guide of where to bring D&D 6e closer too but more streamlined.

Fantasy Craft is a magnificent alternate-reality D&D that never was. And it likely will always be just that. If that SRD ever drops... it might be pretty damn interesting.1

estar

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Well here is a question. Given that Fantasycraft is a fork of the D20 SRD. Would it be possible to apply its ideas and system design to a fork of the 5e SRD? While the open content declaration is problematic for making a copy or clone of fantasycraft. It is expansive enough to be useful to be applied to a different but related system.

Or perhaps reworked to apply to a fork of a classic edition retro-clone. Which could dovetail nicely with the appeal of tersely written systems that many hobbyists currently have.

I bet either effort would refresh the fantasycraft concept enough to create an audience large enough to sustain a regular series of releases.

I am just wrapping up a rewrite of 5e to conform my Majestic Fantasy material. I found 5e to malleable enough to do what I want to do with it. So I don't see any particular problem with it. Similarly I done quite a bit of work with Swords & Wizardry since the original release of my supplement and don't see any issue.

The main thing is not to worry about what Wizards thought the balance of the system should be but rather come up with your own balance. Explain it well and have it make sense.

Which is why Adventures in Middle Earth worked.

The nuts and bolts of my work with a 5e version of my stuff is translating what I did to a 20 level spread. I have to re-read fantasycraft to be more specific but I don't see any particular barriers to 5ecraft. Or going the reverse and collapsing the level spread and number to fit a classic edition.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 10:29:29 am by estar »

tenbones

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I definitely think it could be done. 5eCraft (heh) would be a very interesting design prospect. To be honest, I'd not even given two-thoughts about Fantasy Craft until these few threads about Feats and Transitioning back to 3e came up. So I'm sort of re-acquainting myself with the rules, it's fun.

Without jumping too far ahead in this thread and its purpose - I'm personally on the record of being generally against a hard 20-lvl spread. Yet Fantasy Craft does use a 20-lvl spread, but they do some very novel things to mitigate some of the issues. One of which is giving "capstone" abilities at 14th-lvl, which fits within the range of the "sweet-spot" of high-end play. Coupled with the mathematical balance integrated into the game, they transcend my own biases against the 20-lvl spread in a unique way.

Or more likely they applied far more effort that I would have to "skin the cat" in the manner they did. But I recognize they did it this way in order to mirror 3.x as much as possible.

It MIGHT be a fun thing for us to explore in another thread to spitball a 5eCraft after we do this thread. Then we could dive in to seeing how 5e would look with system changes and sub-system additions from Fantasy Craft. I think it would be very interesting for everyone. Let's pin this idea! I'm sure a lot of discussion in this thread will give us some good guidance on where to start in a 5eCraft "draft".

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Maybe I should put up a discussion for Spheres of Power and Spheres of might. I think people might like that system allot.

estar

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Quote from: tenbones;1138481
It MIGHT be a fun thing for us to explore in another thread to spitball a 5eCraft after we do this thread. Then we could dive in to seeing how 5e would look with system changes and sub-system additions from Fantasy Craft. I think it would be very interesting for everyone. Let's pin this idea! I'm sure a lot of discussion in this thread will give us some good guidance on where to start in a 5eCraft "draft".
Sounds good

oggsmash

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I vote for fantasy craft.   I never bought it because it seemed to HEAVILY borrow from the rule adjustments to 3e that Mongoose Conan used.  I probably liked the rules version of any D20 game the most, with Mongoose Conan.   DCC is now tied, but those two are different for me, especially the progression of your level making you better at defending yourself, and armor making it harder to hurt you.  Heaven.

Armchair Gamer

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One question that comes to mind as we start on the character creation path: How forgiving is FC when it comes to character optimization? With all the moving parts, do you have to be careful when choosing combinations, or can one successfully play to or against archetype and still wind up with a reasonable character?

After all, the other two systems up for comparison are notorious for allowing players to cripple or supercharge a PC with the wrong choices out of the gate.