Quote from: thedungeondelver;414359(I would just like to point out that Benoist and Melan have quit saying 3e is like 1e so I win)

Also, is it the culture or the system that's the point of comparison?

Because Sett just said that the culture of 3e was the same as 1e, even though the system is different (again: Feats, Skills, Multiclassing, PrCs). But then when someone brought up the magic item economy, he brushed that off as cultural.

Granted, my 1e is the three core books. OA and UA may have changed things mechanically in the direction of 3e, just as 3e may have going 2-ish culturally late in its life.

Quote from: Benoist;414384I always enjoy a good discussion about food. But oysters and Zaccagnini Montepulciano, really? I don't doubt the wine's quality for a minute, but wouldn't a dry white wine do a better job with them?

For my part I was merely speaking of pairing the wine with late-night message board posting

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;414386Granted, my 1e is the three core books. OA and UA may have changed things mechanically in the direction of 3e, just as 3e may have going 2-ish culturally late in its life.

That's what I'm talking about as well, to be clear: Gygaxian, pre-UA AD&D. I'm not talking about UA and books that included skills and all. That's out the window, to me.

Muscadet and Chablis are indeed the classic oyster pairings.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;414386Also, is it the culture or the system that's the point of comparison?

I'm not talking about the culture, because the culture of 3e basically evolved extremely quickly into the cult of rules balance and all (Monte Cook once mildly joked about it, wondering what they had unleashed - in hindsight, some elements of the game certainly had some widely unexpected influence on the audience, like the CR/Encounter Levels guidelines, which are intended as such, not hardcore rules of what range of difficulty an encounter OUGHT to be). I'm comparing what the core books of 3e and 1e achieve. They go about it in widely different ways, but their actual thematics are not so far apart as one would believe. The emphasis on the dungeon, the classes representing a variety of archetypes, return of AD&D elements like the monk and the assassin compared to 2e, and so on, attention given to simulation and how you go about simulating the game world, instead of narrative/story/whatnot bulshit, so forth.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;414401

Wow, Batman slapped him so hard his words bust right out the balloon!

Quote from: thedungeondelver;414401

Pretty funny meme, but can you elaborate on where you think their themes differ most significantly?

Quote from: Benoist;414384I always enjoy a good discussion about food. But oysters and Zaccagnini Montepulciano, really? I don't doubt the wine's quality for a minute, but wouldn't a dry white wine do a better job with them?

Oh absolutely yes.  I didn't mean to suggest pairing it with oysters.  I was just saying that after the hubub about it, I'll have to seek it out.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;414405Oh absolutely yes.  I didn't mean to suggest pairing it with oysters.  I was just saying that after the hubub about it, I'll have to seek it out.

I make no claims it was the best wine ever, but for a "bought it on account of the label" wine, it was pretty tasty.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;414193Compared to the 1e charts in the DMG? No way. Compared to the 3e d20+modifiers system? Well, of course. Hell, that was one of the biggest draws to me for 3e. I was embarrassed to realize I'd never tried something like that all those years of thinking the armor system of 1e/2e was ass-backward.

I was thrilled when 3e came out with that system since we'd been using it in 2e for years at that point. To me that was one of the best improvements to D&D, alongside better Saves (though we did add in Save vs. Spell, using the others for more mundane things) and the skill system (before it got broken by books and books of Feats and PrCs.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;414212That's pretty weak. The math was ridiculously simple for THAC0. If that was a stumbling block for anyone, they might wanna consider playing Chutes & Ladders instead. THAC0 meant adding and subtracting the AC from 0.

This is true though. I never, ever saw the fuss about THAC0. The math was on par with rolling up stats by adding up three dice. Simple addition and subtraction. Sadly, we had to switch to the 3e style long before 3e due to the fact that we liked to smoke a lot of pot during my late high school years, so we kept everything simple. Heh.

And lastly:

Quote from: Spinachcat;414217Loves me some Ravenloft, Al-Qadim and Planescape.

Hoh-lee shee-yit! I thought I was the only person on the planet that loved Al-Qadim. I ran it religiously. I still have the books and boxed sets, thankfully.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Cole;414403Wow, Batman slapped him so hard his words bust right out the balloon!

'swhat happens when you argue D&D with batman, mang.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;414376(On a related note, I'm now going to have to hunt down a bottle of Zaccagnini Montepulciano 2006.)

Make sure to get some salt and vinegar chips to go with it.

Okay, let's get serious for a half a tick...

One thing - and I think this is undeniable - AD&D has a clear emphasis on the character-as-archetype.  3e breaks down the archetype: I'll take a few levels of paladin, a side order of magic-user, a large 2 levels of thief, and for dessert a couple of levels of psionicsist.  Multi (and dual) classing in AD&D allowed some flexibility but what you can do in 3e just totally breaks down the whole archetype approach that AD&D has.  

It creates an entirely different atmosphere and feel, and I don't think that's disputable at all.

Whether or not some people like it is immaterial; it does change the nature of the game, how people play it and the net result.  I mean, if you, the player, sit down and roll up the stats for a fighter in AD&D then your goal is to be the best fighter you can, and you envision how you fit in Greyhawk (or FR or whatever campaign world).  In 3e you just snap on bits and pieces until you become this walking swiss army knife of feats and powers and skills and all you think about is the build.  That has to impact how you play.