excellent thread all!

Neat new avatar BSJ...kinda cool/creepy...:eek:

(I'm still right.)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;415989(I'm still right.)

Batman doesn't like it when he's left out of this thread for too long.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;415989(I'm still right.)

(that's not what you told me backstage)

Quote from: Cole;415991

Batman doesn't like it when he's left out of this thread for too long.

Considering the artwork, I think that is the Gosh Darn Batman.  

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;415971Well, I was enjoying the tangent...

1st ed: lots of character classes
2nd ed: few classes, lots of kits
3rd ed: lots of character classes
4th ed: few classes (though more than 2nd), builds.

I'll qualify that when I mean 'lots of character classes' for 1e, I have to include all the wacky Dragon content which had classes like Sumotori (two different versions), Escrimador, Swordsman, Merchant, Archer, and so on.
In 1e, your mechanical options for customizing characters were quite limited so whenever a concept was found that an existing class didn't quite fit a new class got created (ito use Frank's term, classplosion!)

We are in complete agreement.  I actually prefer more classes in a class based system.  Prestige classes are kind of OK-ish, but the multiclassing in 3.x was pretty messed up from the get-go.  If they hadn't gone completely off the deep end with kits, that is a better way to tweak the character in my opinion; all the benefits of prestige classes without the penalties.

QuoteIn 2e, they decided they didn't want that because (I'm guessing)
-the chassis for classes was much more standardized anyway (i.e. you inherit most of your features like hit dice, save and attack progressions from the class group anyway, so they wouldn't be creating classes with 2d10 at 1st level like the Knight of Solamnia, or that needed 6000 xp at get to 2nd level like the Barbarian)
-it was easier.
So they had kits. I do agree with Frank at least to an extent, that these are analogous to 'builds' - at least in function, though I like the roleplaying depth of 2E kits more). There's perhaps a parallel with 4e in that the first kits did little while later ones were more extreme - compare 4e PHB builds with the later Essentials builds, which can change actual 'role', don't have dailies, and so on.

Again, 4e builds are very much like kits, no question.  My biggest problem with 2nd edition is really all the squandered potential.  All the pieces were in place to have a really great game, but the execution was piss poor and catastrophically misfired at random points.

QuoteThen in 3e, customization via feats came in so 'kits were thrown out, except they still needed to sell books so there was, again (like in 1e), an explosion of classes.

Which was made more difficult for the homebrew guys because of the unified advancement charts.  Instead of tacking on 10% or 20% per level for some features from another class, you have to make sure that the Hide In Shadows evens out with an extra second level spell per day (or whatever).

QuoteIn 4e you have again fewer classes, I'm guessing just because writing out 50 new powers to make a functioning class would be really annoying to do. Therefore, builds to customize characters. The key difference to 2nd ed being that you can sometimes pick up two build feature in 4e e.g. wizard Dual Implement Mastery whereas having multiple kits is (I think) mostly illegal in 2e. I have to qualify that since each book has its own set of Kit rules, and they don't all say that specifically, so it might be possible to squeak through a multi-kit character with some effort.

Honestly, this would have been the perfect opportunity to move to a template/class system.  Make the powers more generic (with a point cost), provide the standard classes as templates, then point-buy whatever classes you want to make.  Hell, the categorization of powers by level is practically point buy anyway, group them by 'martial' or 'arcane' or whatever and just decide how many of each a particular class can take at each level.  Classic Gith: One martial at will, one arcane encounter, and one martial daily, then reverse it next level or something.  Blam.  Swords are implements.  Done.

A planet where 3e evolved from AD&D...?


















IT'S A MADHOUSE!

oh the humanity...enough already,my side hurts.
:rotfl:

I'll fix your "timelines" for you :

Aren't worms basically living holes? You got mouth, intestines, sphincter all basically in one single slithering hole... so ... "wormhole". Really. What the hell is that supposed to mean? ...

Quote from: StormBringer;416004We are in complete agreement.  I actually prefer more classes in a class based system.  Prestige classes are kind of OK-ish, but the multiclassing in 3.x was pretty messed up from the get-go.  If they hadn't gone completely off the deep end with kits, that is a better way to tweak the character in my opinion; all the benefits of prestige classes without the penalties.

Yup...I liked kits better than PrCs just since you start out as a gladiator or pirate or outlaw, instead of having to go off and do adventures to qualify to be a real pirate or whatever.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;416007A planet where 3e evolved from AD&D...?

IT'S A MADHOUSE!

Heh. Well the build  vs. lots of classes thing at least may be "parallel evolution"

Quote from: skofflox;415973excellent thread all!

Neat new avatar BSJ...kinda cool/creepy...:eek:

Cheers, its a neurovore (Talislanta monster).

Quote from: winkingbishop;416020I'll fix your "timelines" for you :

Heh.

Quote from: Melan;415684No, I think this is another case of mistaking a par for course statement for shilling. An uncharitable reading.

That's what I thought too. Friendly conversation? Here's what I'm doing now?

But, I edited my personal information out of the post because I am sensitive to Settembrini's accusation that putting it there displays a lack of integrity.