I was planning on buying the 2e books printed from drivethrurpg. Now I realize the extent of Wizard's wokeness. I thought I could avoid it by just buying an old version without the new gender stuff, etc. Now I'm thinking I should get For Gold and Glory? I just want to avoid any wokeness or left aligned companies but I need physical books. I guess the alternative is buying used but thats going to cost a lot more. Any suggestions?

Aside from the High Gygaxian, I actually prefer using 2e to teach players and tend to run it as closely to 1e as possible in terms of XP awards and feel.

You're stuck if you aren't willing to buy used or make a compromise here, IMO. FG&G is....fine(?) I guess. It gets the job done but it's not inspiring at all, and overall isn't quite at the level OSRIC is with 1e. The PODs are the black cover revised books, which you either love or hate compared to the original printings. They're also only available in softcover if that matters to you. You're right though that if you want 'real' books for 2e, you'll probably be paying around $30 for revised PHBs and DMGs unless you can jump on a good deal. Original printings in good shape tend to go for a lot more than that.

Just for reference, on eBay I picked up a revised DMG in great shape for $20 in May 2022 and an original PHB for $30 about two weeks prior. Two years ago, I snagged a revised PHB for $15, so the deals might be available, but you'll need to jump on them. The coof pushed prices on a lot of it up a bit from where they were. The splats tend to go between $15-60 depending on what they are, with Barbarian, Paladin and Ninja being on the high end of that and sometimes over. I don't think any of the splats are available in POD, but they're really not that necessary. Priest and Wizard might be the two 'best' ones to own if you had to pick them up, and those, along with Fighter and Thief are all on the cheap end. Be aware that the original printings of the PHB and DMG are known to often have bad bindings. My 1989 DMG is in great shape cover-wise, but the binding is a disaster waiting to happen, I'm surprised it hasn't fallen apart yet.

There's nothing that clones all or most of 2e.  It's too big.  For Gold & Glory is pretty much it, and the reason is that AD&D 2e is close enough to modern gaming that it's never really benefited from a clonejob.  There is a need for someone to go through and try to balance everything around a set point, but that's a huge amount of work and would land you in copyright trouble unless you were careful.  From the PHB to whatever is just before Player's Option is a pretty complete version and could be made a bit clearer and a decent amount more fair (especially the really bad kits), but I think most AD&D 2e tables have long ago rolled their own on this.

I also want to point out that basically nothing in 2e is woke or doing any kind of politics- but your post makes it clear that you don't want to give money to WotC if possible, which I get.

The 2012 Premium Edition Reprints, were reprints of the Revised Black Cover Edition; but in new Green covers.  I have the PHB.

Just buy used. Those books (full picture cover, not black border reprint) were also post-1e binding and were stitched quite well; several of them should have survived over the years. Once you have a copy you can have a .pdf of them legally for your records to keep your originals intact.

FG&G is a solid substitute to get started while you are book hunting. 

If you want to see a very nice, none woke AD&D neoclone, check out Adventures Dark & Deep. It's what Gary would have done for a 2E if he would have stayed at TSR. It, to me is the (dare I say) ultimate expression of AD&D without being AD&D. Obviously Mr. Bloch is a true scholar of the game and to me it expressed very well in those books. I probability won't run it anytime soon but one day IF I get a home group of old AD&D grognards, it will be the game we play.

Quote from: Venka on September 29, 2023, 12:19:50 AM
There is a need for someone to go through and try to balance everything around a set point, but that's a huge amount of work and would land you in copyright trouble unless you were careful.  From the PHB to whatever is just before Player's Option is a pretty complete version and could be made a bit clearer and a decent amount more fair (especially the really bad kits), but I think most AD&D 2e tables have long ago rolled their own on this.

I might be able to do this.  What exactly are you looking for?  I have all of the core books (including player options), most of the splatbooks for classes, races, and the DM.  I also have most of the Dark Sun books.  All in all I probably have a 100 2e books sitting in boxes.  I could definitely digest it into a unified set of 3 books that capture the feel of 2e while avoiding legal trouble.

Quote from: Glak on October 01, 2023, 12:10:36 AM

Quote from: Venka on September 29, 2023, 12:19:50 AM
There is a need for someone to go through and try to balance everything around a set point, but that's a huge amount of work and would land you in copyright trouble unless you were careful.  From the PHB to whatever is just before Player's Option is a pretty complete version and could be made a bit clearer and a decent amount more fair (especially the really bad kits), but I think most AD&D 2e tables have long ago rolled their own on this.

I might be able to do this.  What exactly are you looking for?  I have all of the core books (including player options), most of the splatbooks for classes, races, and the DM.  I also have most of the Dark Sun books.  All in all I probably have a 100 2e books sitting in boxes.  I could definitely digest it into a unified set of 3 books that capture the feel of 2e while avoiding legal trouble.

Eh, I am not a follower of The Cult of the Balance, so I don't think this would be a fruitful use of one's time. As an intellectual exercise, sure, have fun. But we must remember 2e is a compilation of very different expressions of play already collated into a bundle-of-options toolbox.

I mean, even just the beginning of Attribute derivation is what, 9 methods already? We joke about 3d6 straight down, but that was just the one listed with 8 different optional methods mentioned thereafter. Then you have no official skills, but three optional methods (the third being WP/NWP), "Group Initiative, Group Modifier" being official, but two optional Init/Mod methods mentioned after, and on and on and on just in the PHB.

What 2e brought was a lingua franca corpus, similar to the Rules Encyclopedia, that interconnected also hugely disparate settings as well. So any of those settings can be played as hard-core gimped or as munchkin power-gamed, as granular or as cinematic, as the table desired without being wholly unrecognizable. All it needed was an internal shift of player expectations of what the 2e system vould do.

To "fix" 2e around a central balance point kills the magical accomodation aspect of it. It reduces the system from a malleable, artistic process to an answerable equation with 'correct' choices. Its wide, often incompatible variety IS its magic; it asks of the table to make choices for itself and the fictive world it plays in before and during play (e.g. during play changing Initiative method). You take ownership of your table's variation, in its opting in or out of options, than expecting a negligent-mistaken-as-unbiased "everything ON".

That said, I've seen very many tables give up their table authority to incompatible optional rules mixes throughout many systems. So the presence of and the availing of will always be separate things. I believe however that words like "unified," "elegant," and "balance" chase ideals that can lose you the forest for the trees.

Quote from: revswim on September 28, 2023, 09:17:06 PM
Any suggestions?

Yes, Castles & Crusades.  Gary G. helped design the game and he said it is what 3rd edition should have been.  Plus they are publishing setting material Gary completed before he passed away.

ZERO wokeness

I would also say Castleand Crusades. Otherwise ignore the virtual signalling from Wotc and buy actual 2E. Seems like an waste of time to bend over backwards for just an annoying blurb.

If one were to clone 2e, to me the way to go would be in some ways a takeoff of Hackmaster 4e splatbooks:

1. A main rulebook text that clones the essence from the PHB, DMG, and core from Monstrous Compendium/MM
2. A large splatbook clone volume that includes the kit information from the Race and Class splatbooks; you could also produce this as TWO volumes, one for the Race brown splatbooks, and one for the Class kits brown splatbooks
3. A clone supplement volume that includes Legends and Lore, the remaining monsters from Monstrous Compendium, and maybe odd monsters from other expansions to the MC (that aren't covered by copyright related to particular settings).

It might be a fun project, but not sure it is worth the effort.

Quote from: GamerforHire on October 01, 2023, 02:18:07 PM
If one were to clone 2e, to me the way to go would be in some ways a takeoff of Hackmaster 4e splatbooks:

But why clone it?  Just take some PDFs and POD them and play the game.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 04:18:43 AM
But we must remember 2e is a compilation of very different expressions of play already collated into a bundle-of-options toolbox.

I agree completely.  I started with 2e, and I was the self-taught DM.  From the very beginning I understood that the DM has to have an active curatorial role.

The kits are a big part of the unique flavor of 2e (though I can't recall using them much).  2e has a three-level class system:  group (warrior, priest, rogue, wizard, psionicist), class (fighter, ranger, etc....), and then kit.  Many kits can be used by any class in the group.  So many of the kits are transparent attempts to allow races to get around restrictions, for example a kit that allows a halfling to play a pseudo-ranger.  I think that the solution is replace the classes with kits, that can then be applied to the groups.  The book would present 30 or so kits, and DMs would select a dozen or so to be present in the campaign world.

I'd go with Castles & Crusades. It's AD&D 3e.

It plays very well at the table, has a gazillion splatbooks and adventures, and zero SJW crap.

Or buy 2e used so Woketards of the Coast don't get a dime.