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Author Topic: 2015: What % of players balk at random chargen  (Read 7374 times)

Justin Alexander
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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2015, 02:06:24 AM »
Quote from: Tetsubo;816905
I find that utterly mystifying. I can't imagine fifty people over the last 30+ years wanting to play such a random game. It's like you folks are discuss an alien planet.


There are three advantages to random generation:

1. It is generally much, much faster.
2. It is generally much more accessible to new players.
3. It allows one to discover a character instead of creating it.

Build systems also have their advantages. Most of the people I'm talking about who had no problem playing with randomly generated characters also have no problem playing with built characters.

For the people I play with, this question is functionally equivalent to, "Do you like d20 systems or d100 systems?" or "Do you like board games or card games?" or "Do you like pizza or hamburgers?" It's a false dichotomy.

Quote from: Tetsubo;816904
For me, that would be the equivalent of being thrust on a stage with *no* direction and having to figure out what I was suppose to do based on my costume and the set.


That's called improvisation. People do it all the time.

Quote from: Kiero;817044
In OD&D stats "don't mean much" because they don't actually do anything.


That's not my experience with OD&D. In the case of Charisma, I actually found that stats were far more important in OD&D. And the prime requisite bonuses to XP are also very significant over the long term.
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Opaopajr

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2015, 03:53:01 AM »
Yay, more fuel!

Quote from: Omega;816922
Just rolled. BX style. ST:8, IN:4, WS:7, DX:11, CN:14. CH:12
For me I see the following from that. I could play a thief. Or I could shuffle 4 points from strength to bump wisdom up to 9 and play a cleric. Or leve as is and play a cleric that is not that great at saves and gets a little less EXP. Or I could play a fighter either as is, or sacrifice 2 points wisdom to bump strength up to 9. I could even play a magic user.

STR 8, DEX 11, CON 14, INT 4, WIS 7, CHA 12

I'll make a 5e Wizard! :D

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Gear: Perform Tool, Clothes, pouch +15 gp.

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Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2015, 04:42:39 AM »
Quote from: Phillip;817086
Anyway, old D&D, Traveller, etc., presume as default an interest in the game as a sum of histories, as opposed to a single figure's career being all that matters.


Very good point!  The players I've seen who have had the most objection to random gen have also been very into "this is about my guy being a hero, so I want control over what my guy is like", while my randomness-preferring focus is more on "there are countless tales in the world, so let's find out what some of them are".  Focus on a specific character vs. focus on the setting as a whole.

tuypo1

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2015, 04:58:31 AM »
Quote from: nDervish;817189
Very good point!  The players I've seen who have had the most objection to random gen have also been very into "this is about my guy being a hero, so I want control over what my guy is like", while my randomness-preferring focus is more on "there are countless tales in the world, so let's find out what some of them are".  Focus on a specific character vs. focus on the setting as a whole.


that just sounds pretentious to me

i dont really mind that sort of campaign but using it as an excuse for rolled stats is pretty stupid
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Panjumanju

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2015, 09:13:27 AM »
Quote from: tuypo1;817192
that just sounds pretentious to me


More pretentious than "this is about my guy being a hero"?

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2015, 12:17:01 PM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;817186
Yay, more fuel!

STR 8, DEX 11, CON 14, INT 4, WIS 7, CHA 12

I'll make a 5e Wizard! :D

Giggles the Adorable
Half-Elf Wizard Entertainer

Bio: Evil, demon-worshipping, Pennywise clown... who performs at children's birthdays! :p

We are like those tag team matches. I body slam him and then you come into the ring and beat him over the head a few times with a folding chair...

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2015, 01:24:08 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817176
There are three advantages to random generation:

1. It is generally much, much faster.
2. It is generally much more accessible to new players.
3. It allows one to discover a character instead of creating it.


But again, I'm not sure #2 is generally true anymore, what with so many new players coming into the hobby from video games. In fact I'm wondering if it might not be a major dissuader.

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2015, 03:17:24 PM »
Quote from: Old Geezer;816990
Exactamundo.  I always announce "I'll be running OD&D, character generation will be 3d6 in order six times."  My games always have enough players.

I am unaware if anybody declines to play because of random chargen.

It works for you because ability scores are largely meaningless in the version of DnD that you run. Also the reason you are unaware if you get declined because of random chargen is that the type of player that usually dislikes random chargen won't touch your version of DnD with a ten foot pole in the first place because it's usually antithetical to their preferred playstyle. It's a case of "it's me not you honey".

Quote
That's not my experience with OD&D. In the case of Charisma, I actually found that stats were far more important in OD&D. And the prime requisite bonuses to XP are also very significant over the long term.
This is so ridiculously false. Real life charisma has not one thing to do with your stats and given stats in OD&D were basically meaningless it meant everything was dependent on a person's REAL intelligence, wits, and charisma.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:22:00 PM by Marleycat »
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Will

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2015, 03:21:38 PM »
'My anti tiger charm works!'
This forum is great in that the moderators aren't jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2015, 03:39:53 PM »
Quote from: Marleycat;817259
This is so ridiculously false. Real life charisma has not one thing to do with your stats and given stats in OD&D were basically meaningless it meant everything was dependent on a person's REAL intelligence, wits, and charisma.

:confused: What is ridiculously false?

Are you saying that experience bonuses don't make any difference in speed of character progression and hence power? That seems patently absurd, so probably you don't mean that.

You said, "Real life charisma has not one thing to do with your stats". Do you mean it has nothing to do with my character's stats? Well that is an obvious truism, but since that isn't what the person you quoted actually said, so you probably don't mean that.

Do you mean that in real life, real life charisma isn't related to the real world analogs to stats in D&D? That would deny that there is such a thing as charisma in the real world. That seems unlikely. Maybe you didn't mean that.

Do you mean that the Charisma statistic was meaningless in OD&D because the effective charisma of your character was based solely on the player's charisma? Well that's half right. OD&D allowed the player to provide the plans and speech for their character. However, the Charisma stat provided a bonus to reaction rolls and follower loyalty. So it is wrong to say that the game stat has no effect.

So what is it you think "is ridiculously false?" Because I don't see that anything those posters said was ridiculously false.

EDIT: Also worth noting for clarity that the second quote you responded to was by Justin Alexander not Old Geezer.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:43:53 PM by Bren »
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Justin Alexander
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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2015, 05:01:34 PM »
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;817235
But again, I'm not sure #2 is generally true anymore, what with so many new players coming into the hobby from video games. In fact I'm wondering if it might not be a major dissuader.


I'm basing this on my experience with introducing 20+ people to RPGs over the last 4 years. Generally speaking, they don't want to do homework before showing up to play the game. And spending 1-2 hours building a character while making decisions that mean nothing to you because you haven't read the 200 pages of rules that give those decisions context is also, IME, a really horrible way to introduce someone to any game (whether roleplaying, board game, or otherwise).

YMMV, but I've found the most reliable way to eliminate those problems is randomization.

It should also be noted that the vast, vast majority of video games don't feature laborious character building mechanics.

Quote from: Marleycat;817259
This is so ridiculously false. Real life charisma has not one thing to do with your stats and given stats in OD&D were basically meaningless it meant everything was dependent on a person's REAL intelligence, wits, and charisma.


First: Your comment about "real life charisma" is one of the biggest non sequiturs I've seen this year. Congratulations.

Second: I assure you, there are literally multiple tables in OD&D (making up the bulk of the character creation rules) that describe the mechanical effects, bonuses, and penalties that every single ability score in the game has. Of the effects listed, the ability score that has the biggest impact in actual play is Charisma (which, correspondingly, receives multiple tables just describing its effects).

If you're playing OD&D the way that it's written, Charisma will have an automatic mechanical impact on every single encounter in the game (whether combat or social) and also has a dramatic impact on your overall effectiveness because it controls the number of hirelings who will follow you. This is dramatically different from later editions of the game because all the OD&D mechanics that were dependent on Charisma were removed from the game.

(If you're not playing OD&D the way it was written, of course, who the fuck knows.)
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Bren

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2015, 05:14:29 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817279
YMMV, but I've found the most reliable way to eliminate those problems is randomization.
OD&D roll 3d6 down the board is fast. And easy to explain, though selecting which spell for an MU to memorize could take a bit of time. If you just say, "Pick Sleep or Charm Person" then that's really fast too.

I find templates, like those in Star Wars D6 or Honor+Intrigue work very well since players just pick a template that sounds interesting, e.g. Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, Jedi Apprentice or Pirate, King's Musketeer, or Brilliant Inventor and then make a few selections that are easy to walk them through in either case. They can then find out how the system works in play for their PC. If they ended up with a PC they didn't like so much, they can then create another (or modify the first slightly) based on their new knowledge and that doesn't take long either.

Expecting new players or even most experienced players what to read and understand scores or hundreds of pages of rules seems pretty wacked to me. Most people I've played with (except for the GM) never wanted to do that even after years of gaming.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 05:16:30 PM by Bren »
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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2015, 05:28:40 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817279

It should also be noted that the vast, vast majority of video games don't feature laborious character building mechanics.


True, and...

Quote from: Bren
I find templates, like those in Star Wars D6 or Honor+Intrigue work very well since players just pick a template that sounds interesting, e.g. Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, Jedi Apprentice or Pirate, King's Musketeer, or Brilliant Inventor and then make a few selections that are easy to walk them through in either case. They can then find out how the system works in play for their PC.


This is how most video games do it. Quick, easy to abstract into meaningful ideas/archetypes and no randomization.

5e actually does try to do this, but I must confess I flubbed the delivery of it to the new players with my current campaign. Perhaps what I should have done what reveal the templates one at a time.

1. Ask them what race they want.
2. Ask them what background they want.
3. Ask them what class they want.
4. Help them assign stats and skills.

I'm actually debating the need for step 4, the one which features the most "incomprehensible decisions", as many video games backload it or its equivalent. Perhaps what I should do is have a standard assignment of stats and skills based on the class. A partial pregen if you will.

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2015, 07:08:41 PM »
Quote from: Bren;817283
I find templates, like those in Star Wars D6 or Honor+Intrigue work very well since players just pick a template that sounds interesting, e.g. Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, Jedi Apprentice or Pirate, King's Musketeer, or Brilliant Inventor and then make a few selections that are easy to walk them through in either case. They can then find out how the system works in play for their PC. If they ended up with a PC they didn't like so much, they can then create another (or modify the first slightly) based on their new knowledge and that doesn't take long either.


Most groups I play in have an informal "first mission doesn't really count" rule, where you can change stuff (Within reason) after the first session if it doesn't seem to work for you, but you're locked in after that; kinda like a pilot episode for a TV show.
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Will

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2015, 07:19:03 PM »
And then you can have flashbacks to the pilot a few episodes in...


(yes, I'm thinking Star Trek)
This forum is great in that the moderators aren't jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the 'no X is better than bad X,' I'm out of here. If you need to find me I'm sure you can.