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Author Topic: 2015: What % of players balk at random chargen  (Read 7375 times)

Will

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2015, 11:08:48 PM »
There are complicated variations, too. I ALSO love to get into a character, come up with fiddly details and NPCs and relationships and so on.

I just find it engaging and cool to randomize a bunch of starting factoids, and then creatively spin them into a compelling story background.

These are two of several approaches people like in making characters -- random details, choose everything, some mix, define as you go (like Fate Quickstart, which is a method I really like -- you come up with details and skills and such later in play, once you either mechanically want something or storyish feel something is appropriate), and probably a few other methods.
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nDervish

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2015, 06:04:23 AM »
I've never had a player flatly refuse to do random chargen, but I would say 80-90% of the people I've played with in the last year or two have balked at random chargen, even though they ultimately went along with "3d6 in order" for the ACKS game I ran.  All of these players are in the 20-30 age range and I'm pretty sure that only one of them had done random previously.  Having tried it, a few have requested random chargen in systems where it's not the norm and one really pushes me to come up with ways to make a random character for him even in games designed for point-buy with a large number of points.  On the other extreme, there's one guy who will do random chargen if asked to, but will also complain loud and long about how much he hates random chargen at every opportunity.

My personal preference leans heavily to randomness, because I rarely come to the table with an idea of what kind of character I want to play, so I like to let the dice surprise me as they let me discover who my character is.  I really love a good lifepath system, but, sadly, most games don't seem to have them.

Quote from: Tetsubo;816283
For me, building the character is part of the game.


I agree that building the character is part of the game, but I mean almost exactly the opposite of what you do in saying that:  When I play the game, building my character is part of what I'm doing.  I prefer to start playing quickly so that I can start building my character through play as soon as possible.

Kiero

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 07:20:19 AM »
Quote from: nDervish;816334
I agree that building the character is part of the game, but I mean almost exactly the opposite of what you do in saying that:  When I play the game, building my character is part of what I'm doing.  I prefer to start playing quickly so that I can start building my character through play as soon as possible.


Whereas I don't see the need to get started so quickly. If this is a game that's going to last longer than a handful of sessions, it's more important to get the premise and characters nailed down, and ensure everyone is on the same page.

The unseemly rush to get to play I would suspect is behind quite a few of the disconnects we see when a character who "evolves" in play turns out to be a jarringly bad fit for the group, since everyone had different ideas in mind and no one spent the time to talk them through.

I start making a character in my head from the time we agree on a setting, premise and starting situation. That requires thinking and discussion time, and I'd much rather put that effort in up-front, before play starts, than be trying to retcon and rework things in play.
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Omega

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 07:58:18 AM »
Quote from: King Truffle IV;816230
No protagonist in fiction was randomly generated, to my knowledge.  And since every character is the protagonist in the eyes of her player, it just feels more fair and organic to me to eschew random chargen in favor of more player freedom.


You must not have read much fiction then.

There are many heroes who start off deficient and either set out to improve themselves, or they work around that weakness and play up their other strengths, or they soldier on as they are. It is a common theme to see the everyman joe average and how they develop. Theres more to a character than their stats.

And technically, within the setting of a story, everyone was generated randomly. The the story just happens to focus on these people.

And a little secret. One or two novelists HAVE played around with random character generation to get a character as an exercise or just for fun.

Personally I just let the players choose their method of chargen unless they are getting annoying about point buy or are just wanting it for min-maxing.

Omega

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2015, 08:27:38 AM »
All said though. I do try to get players, and myself, to try different approaches before settling on something.

Especially since I seem to have this horrible (or blessed) knack for picking up players on the rebound from really bad DMs which colours their viewpoints.

"Scarred for Life!" I mutter darkly...

Sometimes prying open that damn oystershell is a total pain in the ass. But I know that there is a pearl in there waiting to shine if just given the chance.

Which is why I prefer either roll and arrange, or BX's roll in order then shuffle points within limits at a loss, systems. Controlled chaos. Random - but the player has some say in that random.

But experience has shown me absolutely clearly that some players just do not have that spark in them to play or visualize a character that is totally randomized without their input. Same as how some DMs just cannot do on the fly spontaneous DMing. They need modules to give them a structure and organization to work with.

If I see a player is just not clicking to random stat gen. Then I adjust accordingly. Same for point buy. Some players just do not take to it. They need random.

Bren

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2015, 08:40:59 AM »
Quote from: Kiero;816340
Whereas I don't see the need to get started so quickly. If this is a game that's going to last longer than a handful of sessions, it's more important to get the premise and characters nailed down, and ensure everyone is on the same page.

The unseemly rush to get to play I would suspect is behind quite a few of the disconnects we see when a character who "evolves" in play turns out to be a jarringly bad fit for the group, since everyone had different ideas in mind and no one spent the time to talk them through.[/quote]I wouldn't have said, "unseemly rush" but otherwise this is a good point. Spending time ensuring that the characters will work together has worked out well for our gaming group for long term play.

However the value of group discussion to facilitate harmony among the characters and the understanding of the premise of the game is unrelated to the method of character generation. The worst problems I've seen in play did not arise from random character generation. They arose because one or more players had an idea in their head for their character that clashed with the characters ideas of the other players. Someone whose character evolves during the first few play sessions is seldom wedded to a preexisting character concept and they can adjust a bit to fit with the group. I'm less sanguine that someone who comes to the table with a clear idea of exactly who their character is will have the same flexibility. Plenty of people use point buy and never have the group discussion. To me that is more likely to cause a clash than starting at the table with random generation for all.

But we agree that a group discussion can be very helpful in facilitating group harmony.

Note: by group harmony I really do not mean the PCs always agree or conflict between PCs is banned. What I mean is there is an opportunity to discuss how conflict might take place or be resolved in a way that avoids discord amongst the players while allowing the possibility of conflict amongst the PCs.

Quote from: Omega;816342
You must not have read much fiction then.
I assume the King meant there is a difference between choosing to play a character with a CON 6 because you like the idea of the warrior with the old chest wound that damaged  his lungs causing weakness and racking coughs when he over exerts himself and being forced by the roll of the dice to figure out what it means for your character to have a CON of 6. The author chooses which debilities and which strengths that a character will have because they find that character interesting or because that character allows them to tell a story they find interesting. Presumably the King wants to have the same freedom that the author has. While I don’t think of playing an RPG as being much like writing a story, that’s what I understood King Truffle IV to be saying.
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nDervish

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2015, 08:41:59 AM »
Quote from: Kiero;816340
Whereas I don't see the need to get started so quickly. If this is a game that's going to last longer than a handful of sessions, it's more important to get the premise and characters nailed down, and ensure everyone is on the same page.


Personally, I play to discover things in the course of the game.  Whatever is nailed down up front is removed from the pool of things to discover through play, so that's not something I value.  There are some things which I do still feel the need to establish up front, such as the general setting and campaign premise, but detailed character backgrounds are not among them.  But it's all a sliding scale and I can understand that others would want backgrounds to be established up front, even if I don't.

Quote from: Kiero;816340
The unseemly rush to get to play I would suspect is behind quite a few of the disconnects we see when a character who "evolves" in play turns out to be a jarringly bad fit for the group, since everyone had different ideas in mind and no one spent the time to talk them through.

I start making a character in my head from the time we agree on a setting, premise and starting situation. That requires thinking and discussion time, and I'd much rather put that effort in up-front, before play starts, than be trying to retcon and rework things in play.


Off the top of my head, I can't recall any characters who were jarringly bad fits for the group, regardless of whether they were designed or evolved, unless the player was also a bad fit, leading me to suspect that the problem was with the player, rather than with how character creation and development were handled.  I also can't recall ever needing to retcon and rework a character's in-play-developed details.  So it seems that, in this respect, your experiences and mine have been very different.

Quote from: Omega;816342

There are many heroes who start off deficient and either set out to improve themselves, or they work around that weakness and play up their other strengths, or they soldier on as they are. It is a common theme to see the everyman joe average and how they develop.


I don't see how that has any bearing on whether the character was randomly generated or not.  In the vast majority of such cases, I'm sure the author deliberately designed the character with those deficiencies so that they would then be able to develop in the ways/areas that the author desired.

Omega

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2015, 08:52:57 AM »
Quote from: nDervish;816346
I don't see how that has any bearing on whether the character was randomly generated or not.  In the vast majority of such cases, I'm sure the author deliberately designed the character with those deficiencies so that they would then be able to develop in the ways/areas that the author desired.


Trotting out literary characters as an example of why random gen is bad was not exactly the best of examples anyhow as they are different media and often play out in creation differently.

And another secret. Some writers, a few big name ones have stated that they did not know how the story was going to develop as it went.

RandallS

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2015, 09:09:28 AM »
Quote from: Tetsubo;816283
For me, character creation is part and parcel of a tabletop role-playing game.


It is for me as well, it's just a part I want to be finished with quickly: say 10 or 15 minutes. About the amount of time I want to spend on the average combat. Two reasons I strongly prefer early editions of D&D. :)
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Bren

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 09:10:56 AM »
Quote from: Omega;816349
And another secret. Some writers, a few big name ones have stated that they did not know how the story was going to develop as it went.
Yes. Though the one's who've talked about it that I know of described it as an emerging story. I've usually seen that when authors talk about listening to the character or that the character took the story in an unexpected direction. These authors start with a situation and/or with characters and then by listening to the characters or by thinking about what a particular character would do or how they would react that takes the story somewhere. Authors who spend a lot of effort preplanning plot don't seem to have that experience.

To me this is one of the things I like about RPGs. As the GM I come up with a situation and I usually (though not always) have an idea of how things might resolve. But in play I get surprised by what the PCs choose, how the dice roll, and even what NPCs may choose to do. The NPCs may surprise me because I randomly roll for their reaction or because when it actually comes down in play, in the moment when I think about the situation from the NPC's perspective in the moment, sometimes the NPC's reaction is a different one than I had anticipated. I like those kinds of surprises. I get the same thing sometimes when I'm the player. The way the scene plays out in the moment sometimes causes me to realize the character is going to do something I had not expected.
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Kiero

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 09:12:39 AM »
Quote from: Bren;816345
I wouldn't have said, "unseemly rush" but otherwise this is a good point. Spending time ensuring that the characters will work together has worked out well for our gaming group for long term play.

However the value of group discussion to facilitate harmony among the characters and the understanding of the premise of the game is unrelated to the method of character generation.


Just focusing on this part, one of the supposed advantages of random generation (and one quoted by its proponents) is speed to play. That instead of spending time analysing options and mulling choices, you get what you're given and get playing.

Quote from: nDervish;816346
Personally, I play to discover things in the course of the game.  Whatever is nailed down up front is removed from the pool of things to discover through play, so that's not something I value.  There are some things which I do still feel the need to establish up front, such as the general setting and campaign premise, but detailed character backgrounds are not among them.  But it's all a sliding scale and I can understand that others would want backgrounds to be established up front, even if I don't.


I don't see any dichotomy, or even any sort of trade-off. Things nailed down before play provide structure around which further leaps of creativity can spring, rather than vague, nebulous mush where no one is really sure of anything.

Blank page paralysis is just as much of a potential issue as analysis-paralysis.

Quote from: nDervish;816346
Off the top of my head, I can't recall any characters who were jarringly bad fits for the group, regardless of whether they were designed or evolved, unless the player was also a bad fit, leading me to suspect that the problem was with the player, rather than with how character creation and development were handled.  I also can't recall ever needing to retcon and rework a character's in-play-developed details.  So it seems that, in this respect, your experiences and mine have been very different.


Point is with an up-front discussion it's often easier to spot these things, than to wait for the problems to arise in play. It's also easier to fix mismatched expectations before we play than during.
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Bren

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2015, 09:32:41 AM »
Quote from: Kiero;816352
Just focusing on this part, one of the supposed advantages of random generation (and one quoted by its proponents) is speed to play. That instead of spending time analysing options and mulling choices, you get what you're given and get playing.
You sort-of conflated having a discussion with using point buy. Generally I find that the point buy analysis and mulling is mostly a separate thing from useful discussion time.

I agree the discussion has value for me and my players. But that is a separate issue from point buy. The person who built a character at home using point buy and shows up at the table ready to play their war-forged dragon-born, half-dark elf paladin is not exactly without precedent gaming. That's why I think it is more productive to separate whether or not to have a discussion before play starts from the method of character creation that one prefers to use. As I said, I think templates hit a sweet spot for a lot of players since they combine some flexibility in customization with speed of character creation.
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Beagle

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2015, 10:36:28 AM »
I personally think that a good character creation process includes both random elements and important decisions: It is equally important to have some outside input to create a unique character with surprising traits and aspects outside of the direct expectations of each player for me one of the ovbjectives of the character creation process is to get unique and interesting characters, and some random elements are a genuinely good way to establish some traits the player would normally not have thought about. Incorporating this additional input in the background adds an additional layer to the whole character creation process, and includes even an element of unpredictability for  the player themselves. Besides, if you cannot include a handful random oddities in your character concept, that concept wasn't particularly robust to begin with.
On the other hand, a completely random character creation process without any input or meaningful choice from the player isn't particularly interesting either. It is the combination of random elements and choice that leads to the best results in my experience, and fortunately, I have mostly met players who had either also made this acknowledgement or which could be convinced with the right amount of enthusiasm.

Will

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2015, 10:46:30 AM »
There's usually not much about random chargen that precludes having a discussion, forming a coherent party, and fleshing out a character to work with the group, because actual history and attitudes of a character aren't often part of the randomness.

I've seen plenty of people deciding to design characters that don't mesh at all with point buy or other systems, I don't think it's any hedge. Ultimately you either get together and make compatible characters, or you don't.

And, Kiero, 'unseemly rush'?
Every time you embed pointless value judgements like that in your speech, you come across as an insufferable, blinkered asshole.

Probably farting in the wind, since people have been chiding you on this for the 5+ years I've read your posts and you are unwilling/unable to change, but PLEASE STOP DOING THAT.
This forum is great in that the moderators aren't jack-booted fascists.

Unfortunately, this forum is filled with total a-holes, including a bunch of rape culture enabling dillholes.

So embracing the 'no X is better than bad X,' I'm out of here. If you need to find me I'm sure you can.

Kiero

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2015: What % of players balk at random chargen
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2015, 10:58:41 AM »
Quote from: Will;816380
And, Kiero, 'unseemly rush'?
Every time you embed pointless value judgements like that in your speech, you come across as an insufferable, blinkered asshole.

Sorry, old boy, but I don't give a fuck. I really couldn't care less how much choice of phrasing comes across, nor do I give much of a toss what people think of me. Which I think is pretty self-evident anyway.
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