Quote from: Will;816653And here's the version without implicit judgement:

A) He's afraid that he will not be an asset to the group if other people are noticeably more powerful than him.
B) He's afraid that others will not be an asset to the group if they are noticeably weaker than him.
C) Both A&B
D) The irregularities in chargen bug him and disrupt his enjoyment of the game, esthetically.
E) He believes that adding another layer of randomness is possibly dangerous to the integrity of the game (whether overall balance, theme, or whatever)

You rephrased (A) to frame the issue as a concern for the group's fun rather than a concern for the individual player's fun. I chose to focus on the individual because this one individual wants the rest of the group to do things his way rather than him doing things their way. To me that seems like he is more individually focused. It seems odd to claim that valuing individual fun is somehow more judgmental than valuing group fun. Both seem equally, but differently judgmental .

I notice you felt no need to refrase (B) despite it also being judgmental .

(D) is now a completely different choice that seems a bit nonsensical since the only irregularity is this one player wants the entire group to use his choice not their choice.

(E) This is just another instance of a different yet still judgemental take on what the player might want. I included (E) as a bit of satire on ETS-style exam questions. Your (E) doesn't seem satirical but it does seem like an unsupported leap from the information we do have. But that's pretty typical.

Quote from: Will;816662Or someone who is good at analyzing the situation and system.

I've been in situations where everyone's blithe dismissal of potential concerns sure as shit lead to a trainwreck when the noticed problems did, indeed, slam into the group.

I've also been in situations where people get so wrapped around the axle running numbers and worrying about weird theoreticals that they sabotaged what could have been a fun, cool game.


SO, hey. Whether someone is being stupid or savvy depends on the actual details.

I think it is just a matter of taste, but it is only a problem in my view if randomness and potential power disparity don't match your preferences. I've played in games that are balanced and games that allow for different levels of power between characters due to randomness. Neither one is inherently a problem unless there are people in your group who dislike them. As long as you know what kind of game you are playing and run with it, it is fine either way.

Quote from: Bren;816652I'm curious why it irks him. Please choose the best answer from the list.

The randomness irritates him. He isn't the type to get jealous if another character is better than his. He'll actually take other player's characters sometimes and suggest tweaks to me them 'better.' He just thinks random character generation is too messy.

I should also mention that he was a long-time DM, so playing the RPGs differently from the way he's accustomed to sometimes irks him.

It's annoying, because in all other respects he's an excellent player, and an all-round good guy.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816663If we're talking about a board game, a one-shot, or an easy-come easy-go style campaign (1e D&D), I might go with Krueger's interpretation. But if we're talking about a stereotypical modern campaign where people assume they are investing a lot of their precious limited adult time into a fairly complex undertaking, I side with Will's more charitable take.

I can sympathize with A and B. I've been relegated to side kick that way before and I've been the "best" guy too and thus the focus of allot of resentment.

Quote from: Omega;816606"Scarred for life" he mutterd darkly.

So instead of blaming just short of forcing someone into playing something they didnt want to play. Blame the random rolls instead?

This is exactly why I advise "Ask them. Dont force them."

I didn't run into too many mid-70s DMs who felt that random gen meant you were free to discard any result you didn't like.  Doesn't that fly in the face of the alleged virtues of the system people are touting above?  How could the average player possibly be induced to put up with sucky stats or classes he wouldn't ordinarily play if he can reroll until he gets a result he likes?

Beyond that, no shit I made mistakes when I was a teenage DM first learning the hobby.  So did you, and so did everyone else; no one started this hobby perfect.  I decided, very early on (and without any bullshit "scarred for life" melodrama), that random gen was one of those mistakes, and I could very happily and easily forgo it for good.

Quote from: Haffrung;816688The randomness irritates him. He isn't the type to get jealous if another character is better than his. He'll actually take other player's characters sometimes and suggest tweaks to me them 'better.' He just thinks random character generation is too messy.

I should also mention that he was a long-time DM, so playing the RPGs differently from the way he's accustomed to sometimes irks him.

It's annoying, because in all other respects he's an excellent player, and an all-round good guy.

Well everybody has tics about something. This seems to be his. As this thread (and virtually every other one like it I've ever seen) shows he is not alone in his dislike of the random generation. How did the issue end up being handled in your games?

Quote from: Bren;816709Well everybody has tics about something. This seems to be his. As this thread (and virtually every other one like it I've ever seen) shows he is not alone in his dislike of the random generation. How did the issue end up being handled in your games?

The group made up characters for D&D 5E, three of them using random char gen and two using the fixed arrays. Then this player (let's call him "Jim") volunteered to put them all into an electronic character sheet and print them out. But when he did that, he actually converted the randomly generated attributes into the closets (or 'best') standard arrays, saying the random values were too 'wonky' and 'imbalanced.'

This ticked me off, as the guys who used the random gen were long-standing players from my original D&D group who were perfectly happy to play AD&D for decades with random char gen.

Thing was, Jim had also spent a lot of time doing this for D&D 4E characters using the character builder, and nobody had minded. He spends a lot of time away from the table working on the game (which I really appreciate), but he oversteps his bounds sometimes.

I basically said the characters could keep the random gen, but the players just kind of shrugged it of kept the printed character sheets Jim had made for them.

TL;DR: The guy who puts the most into the game in our group besides me has control issues when it comes to certain thing, but because most of the other players can be quite passive and I appreciate the help, I usually let it slide.

Quote from: Ravenswing;816706I didn't run into too many mid-70s DMs who felt that random gen meant you were free to discard any result you didn't like.  Doesn't that fly in the face of the alleged virtues of the system people are touting above?  How could the average player possibly be induced to put up with sucky stats or classes he wouldn't ordinarily play if he can reroll until he gets a result he likes?

Beyond that, no shit I made mistakes when I was a teenage DM first learning the hobby.  So did you, and so did everyone else; no one started this hobby perfect.  I decided, very early on (and without any bullshit "scarred for life" melodrama), that random gen was one of those mistakes, and I could very happily and easily forgo it for good.

1: Other though have stated that is exactly what they did. Allow rolling new character till something clicks. Or you could limit the number of re-rolls. Or allow BX/BECMI/RC style point swapping. Whatever the DM feels works or doesnt. Some players dont like array systems. Im not overly fond of them either. But have given it a whirl before.

2: And yet all said you still place the blame on the random roll and despise now random rolling because of that incident. So I assume there must have been other incidents after that to re-inforce the dislike of random gen?

Otherwise. Yes, Your "scarred for life" melodrama seems disproportionate to the event.

Quote from: Bren;816709Well everybody has tics about something. This seems to be his. As this thread (and virtually every other one like it I've ever seen) shows he is not alone in his dislike of the random generation. How did the issue end up being handled in your games?

Yeah. You see it in some board games to the point of a near pathological hatred. Ot the good ol' "I hate it because someone told me to!" gag.

Others just dont like it because they somehow consistently (or at least they believe do) roll poorly.

I have one player who is the opposite. Been rolling insanely good on the d20, with a dice tower no less!

Quote from: Haffrung;816716But when he did that, he actually converted the randomly generated attributes into the closets (or 'best') standard arrays, saying the random values were too 'wonky' and 'imbalanced.'

Yeah. Heard that from other 4e-ers levled at any random system but especially "not 4e" D&D. "Imbalanced" was chirped a few times right after 5e PHB came out. Its quieted down after. Either that Or I keep missing their posts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;816656In other words, someone with issues.

most of us have issues a huge amount of the people here are fairly old and that always brings mental issues hell im only 18 and am a mental wreck as far as issues go those arent very big issues

Quote from: Omega;8167201: Other though have stated that is exactly what they did. Allow rolling new character till something clicks. Or you could limit the number of re-rolls. Or allow BX/BECMI/RC style point swapping. Whatever the DM feels works or doesnt. Some players dont like array systems. Im not overly fond of them either. But have given it a whirl before.

2: And yet all said you still place the blame on the random roll and despise now random rolling because of that incident. So I assume there must have been other incidents after that to re-inforce the dislike of random gen?

Otherwise. Yes, Your "scarred for life" melodrama seems disproportionate to the event.

your being an arsehole now its a learning experience that event showed him that it just does not work he does not need to keep trying and having the same things go wrong over and over again you can extrapolate that they will go wrong

Quote from: Haffrung;816716Thing was, Jim had also spent a lot of time doing this for D&D 4E characters using the character builder, and nobody had minded. He spends a lot of time away from the table working on the game (which I really appreciate), but he oversteps his bounds sometimes.

I basically said the characters could keep the random gen, but the players just kind of shrugged it of kept the printed character sheets Jim had made for them.

TL;DR: The guy who puts the most into the game in our group besides me has control issues when it comes to certain thing, but because most of the other players can be quite passive and I appreciate the help, I usually let it slide.

The past history of doing the same thing helps explain the unasked for "helping." Without the past history, that is just all kinds of overstepping going on by Jim - both stepping on other players and on the GM.

Quote from: Omega;816722Others just dont like it because they somehow consistently (or at least they believe do) roll poorly.

I have one player who is the opposite. Been rolling insanely good on the d20, with a dice tower no less!

Given enough players playing you have to expect some people will have a disproportionate number of good or bad rolls for something. And that's ignoring the effects of observational bias and the possibility that a few people probably end up with dice that are not true/fair dice.

Quote from: Bren;816801Given enough players playing you have to expect some people will have a disproportionate number of good or bad rolls for something. And that's ignoring the effects of observational bias and the possibility that a few people probably end up with dice that are not true/fair dice.

Very aware of that. But each session now hes rolled sometimes 2-3 consecutive 20s. Then some average rolls, then another 20 or two. And we watch his rolls now just to be sure.

Meanwhile I am rolling 1s, sometimes series of 1s. With a dice tower too. For me at least it eventually balances out, kinda. But the other guy... yeesh the RNG God loves him. The other players are dead average in roll spreads.

What's the best way to pitch random gen to hesitant players? What has worked for you?