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Author Topic: +1 Combat Wheelchair of "Representation"  (Read 9050 times)

Jaeger

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« Reply #180 on: August 26, 2020, 04:24:57 PM »
Quote from: Blankman;1146527
...
But one thing that bugs me about the way some people talk about the combat wheelchair or similar things is representation. Like "well, I'm X and if X isn't represented in the game then that is clearly bad". I have a very common disability, nearsightedness. I'm also somewhat overweight. Why would I want to play that in an escapist game? ...

It's all a ruse so that they can introduce the +1 Copulation Wheelchair of "Reproduction"

And no one will bat an eye.
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Blankman

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« Reply #181 on: August 26, 2020, 05:29:31 PM »
Quote from: DocJones;1146565
This is true, but all of those items are quite out of reach for 1st level characters.  In order for 1st level disabled characters to get one of these magical items, your D&D world would have to implement social justice "equity", where characters of privilege would have to pay for these items to give to 1st level adventurers.

Next thing you know, 1st level half-orc fighters will be demanding vorpal blades in reparations for years of oppression.

Sure, but then the weird thing is having it available/expected for 1st level characters (I skimmed the pdf of the thing, is it meant for 1st level characters?), not the existence of such a thing in itself.

Quote from: Jaeger;1146571
It's all a ruse so that they can introduce the +1 Copulation Wheelchair of "Reproduction"

And no one will bat an eye.

I don't get it.

jhkim

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« Reply #182 on: August 26, 2020, 08:54:56 PM »
I've mostly been talking about disabled characters in general rather than Thompson's combat wheelchair extension. Previously, I hadn't read it through and I never like to comment on material that I haven't read. I've now read the whole thing, though, and I have a bunch of problems with it - even though I would consider having a paraplegic PC as well as one who used some sort of wheelchair. That one write-up still isn't a judgement of all possible disabled PCs in all games, though.

Quote from: Blankman;1146527
I agree with jhkim in general about disabled characters in RPGs, especially something like D&D. Sure, the precise details will differ, but in most D&D settings it is not at all beyond the realm of possibility or even probability to get hold of a magical replacement for a lost hand or eye (the X of Vecna have been around for decades in the game at this point), or just be good enough at something else that putting up with the disability is worth it. I'd almost certainly rather have a level 16 Wizard who can't walk on my team than replace him with a level 5 Wizard who is more physically fit. At some point you reach a level where you simply can't shop around for someone else with the same level of skill, you've got one option and that is it.

Exactly. Especially given that wizard's powers aren't tied to their physique.


Quote from: Blankman;1146527
But one thing that bugs me about the way some people talk about the combat wheelchair or similar things is representation. Like "well, I'm X and if X isn't represented in the game then that is clearly bad". I have a very common disability, nearsightedness. I'm also somewhat overweight. Why would I want to play that in an escapist game? If we're playing some modern murder mystery or Call of Cthulhu maybe that could be fun, but I would never feel like I was missing something if I couldn't play an overweight guy with glasses in D&D. Even if I wanted to play some sort of wish fulfillment version of myself rather than try to play a completely different character, why would that wish fulfillment version still have bad eyes and an extra 20 kg of fat?

I don't see the need for all games to represent all types of characters. This is something that I think is handled best by the free market. People publish different games with different character types, and players either like them or they don't. I'm not going to judge you for not wanting to play a nearsighted, overweight character -- but if you wanted to, then that's fine too. It's just a game.

There are people who identify with nearsightedness, though. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most popular fantasy series in the last few decades had a hero who was a nerdy kid who wore glasses (Harry Potter). I think a lot of kids identified with that, which drove a lot of its popularity.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #183 on: August 26, 2020, 10:03:48 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1146607
There are people who identify with nearsightedness, though. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most popular fantasy series in the last few decades had a hero who was a nerdy kid who wore glasses (Harry Potter). I think a lot of kids identified with that, which drove a lot of its popularity.

The significance of "Identification" I find is a largely manufactured one. To a certain element yeah its nice to see an element of yourself in somebody else.
But similarly to how commercials make you crave something you don't really need, I find identification to be a massively manufactured piece of BS made by race hucksters and people with social justice degrees.

Harry Potter is actually a great example as its the most popular with women. Who I assume are not all secret trannies.

VisionStorm

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« Reply #184 on: August 26, 2020, 10:56:27 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1146611
The significance of "Identification" I find is a largely manufactured one. To a certain element yeah its nice to see an element of yourself in somebody else.
But similarly to how commercials make you crave something you don't really need, I find identification to be a massively manufactured piece of BS made by race hucksters and people with social justice degrees.


The idea of "RePrEsEnTaTiOn" was pretty much cooked up in academia decades ago, but it unfortunately has been making its way into culture since then (I used to hear about it from time to time as a teen, mainly in school and later in college), so some people buy into it because they already poisoned the well. It's one of those things that sounds plausible, despite the lack of evidence, and it sounds like it's meant to "help" people, so people default to accepting it cuz "what are you some kind of bigot? Why don't you want X group to have their own character?" Except that X group can never have their own character, cuz each character is distinct individual that isn't just interchangeable with anyone of their same sex, race or sexual orientation.

I rarely play characters my own sex and even more rarely play characters my same race. I rarely relate to characters my same race in media. The only Hispanic character I remember liking more than most other characters in a series is Diego from the Umbrella Academy, and that's because he's into martial arts and is sort of the sneaky fighter type, which is one of my go to character types in RPGs and I practice martial arts IRL. But I'd probably still pick Vanya first (or maybe Allison) if I was playing an RPG based on the Umbrella Academy cuz female characters with quasi-magic powers are always my first pick in RPGs.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1146611
Harry Potter is actually a great example as its the most popular with women. Who I assume are not all secret trannies.


Exactly. Hell, the entire series was written by a woman. How tha hell did she even manage that if we rely on characters looking like us in order to relate with them?

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #185 on: August 26, 2020, 10:56:49 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1146607
I've mostly been talking about disabled characters in general rather than Thompson's combat wheelchair extension. Previously, I hadn't read it through and I never like to comment on material that I haven't read. I've now read the whole thing, though, and I have a bunch of problems with it - even though I would consider having a paraplegic PC as well as one who used some sort of wheelchair. That one write-up still isn't a judgement of all possible disabled PCs in all games, though.


Exactly. Especially given that wizard's powers aren't tied to their physique.



I don't see the need for all games to represent all types of characters. This is something that I think is handled best by the free market. People publish different games with different character types, and players either like them or they don't. I'm not going to judge you for not wanting to play a nearsighted, overweight character -- but if you wanted to, then that's fine too. It's just a game.

There are people who identify with nearsightedness, though. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most popular fantasy series in the last few decades had a hero who was a nerdy kid who wore glasses (Harry Potter). I think a lot of kids identified with that, which drove a lot of its popularity.

Which is why Superman is really popular all around the world, since all his fans are really white Kryptonian orphans raised on Kansas...
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« Reply #186 on: August 27, 2020, 03:44:48 AM »
Quote from: Chris24601;1146337
Except relative to every other animal out there.


Except we don't fight animals much in D&D. We fight monsters, other men, and often humanoids of greater strength.

The human body fairs poorly when another human subjects it to sharpened steel backed with velocity.


Quote from: Omega;1146349
Yeah this "no one should ever play a disabled character!" line is really grating.


If a player said, "I want to play a PC with all 3s in their ability scores except a 9 in their class requirement", I'd let them. They might even have fun doing it, but nothing is going to change in my setting to accommodate them. And when they have take -3 penalties, there wouldn't be any concern for their complaints or upset.  

What's clearly being demanded is accommodation of the bizarre. Both Stephen Hawking and Conan must be equal in melee. Helen Keller and Shakespeare must be equally capable of diplomacy and oratory. It's this entirely insane demand of "equity of outcomes" that's been poisoning our schools and academia, and of course, fuels all their anti-merit and anti-capitalist agendas.

I've played lots of Warhammer 1e. Sometimes you run out of Fate points and suffer a crit, and now your PC gets maimed. Most times, I've noticed players don't want to play a sub-optimal character because now that PCs can't do what they previously did. A hook doesn't clone a hand, a pegleg won't be equal to a working leg, and that glass eye isn't helping your awareness. I suspect Gygax understood this and its why D&D skips permanent wounds for abstract HPs.

As a player, I've enjoyed playing horrid beggars in Stormbringer, but never once did I expect the GM to toss my character magical goodies to negate the disadvantages of playing a broken street beggar. I chose to turn a dangerous RPG into double hardcore mode for myself so it was on my shoulders to accept the downsides of MY choice.


Quote from: Mishihari;1146506
This reminds me of my theory about why we find so many folks like this in the hobby.  They already live in a fantasy world, so RPGs are just the next logical step.


Bingo.

Gagarth

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« Reply #187 on: August 27, 2020, 05:53:17 AM »
What Does a TTRPG Sensitivity Reader Do?
By Leona maple sensitivity reader, queer South Asian woman, and, an intersectional feminist!

"Do you truly want your game to have racism/ableism/-ism in it? While it’s not strictly necessary, I have absolutely been approached by people working on their home games to make sure they’re not contributing to harmful tropes while they play. No project is too small or too big for a sensitivity reader."

https://blog.roll20.net/post/627556922437042176/what-does-a-ttrpg-sensitivity-reader-do
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 05:57:10 AM by Gagarth »
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Omega

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« Reply #188 on: August 27, 2020, 06:07:02 AM »
Quote from: Gagarth;1146640
What Does a TTRPG Sensitivity Reader Do?

Sensitivity readers ensure that only approved racism and ableism are in materials. All the better to spread this mental disease. Oh, and line their own pockets by convincing people they neeeeed this service.

Its much akin to how artists pushed more and more for colour art and more art in books. It was not because players wanted it and it sure as hell was not selling more books. But they convinced enough that it did and lined their own pockets. The push got harder once the CCG bubble burst.

Same ol salm ol. Old tactics applied to new product.

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« Reply #189 on: August 27, 2020, 07:36:01 AM »
Quote from: Gagarth;1146640
What Does a TTRPG Sensitivity Reader Do?
"


If you were to listen to one of these so-called 'sensitivity readers' you'd end up with an rpg about two pages long. Imagine one of these schmucks around for Tolkien's era.

Make the game YOU want to make, and if you make a mistake you can apologize afterwards.

Plus, even if you were inclined to be 'overly' politically correct. You could find out all the info on the net, or drop a few questions on TBP or some such place. But paying someone just seems like a ludicrous thing to do. Incidentally, it's funny how all these sensitivity readers are always looking for donations on paypal or have a patreon. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ imo
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Blankman

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« Reply #190 on: August 27, 2020, 07:47:54 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1146607
I've mostly been talking about disabled characters in general rather than Thompson's combat wheelchair extension. Previously, I hadn't read it through and I never like to comment on material that I haven't read. I've now read the whole thing, though, and I have a bunch of problems with it - even though I would consider having a paraplegic PC as well as one who used some sort of wheelchair. That one write-up still isn't a judgement of all possible disabled PCs in all games, though.


Exactly. Especially given that wizard's powers aren't tied to their physique.
Depending on what game you play (in The Fantasy Trip for instance Wizards fuel magic directly with their Strength attribute, meaning a physically stronger wizard has more magical power). But yeah, for D&D a Wizard's power does not come from their body.


Quote from: jhkim;1146607
I don't see the need for all games to represent all types of characters. This is something that I think is handled best by the free market. People publish different games with different character types, and players either like them or they don't. I'm not going to judge you for not wanting to play a nearsighted, overweight character -- but if you wanted to, then that's fine too. It's just a game.

Oh, I agree with that. You do you. I just find it odd to be something to scream about wanting included in official art, game rules and such. In some games it would be odd if left out (any game set in the modern world and involving characters in more regular professions for instance), but I think we can get by fine with most depictions of at least heroes and villains in D&D art being able bodied and in good shape (with occasional exception like a Monk with a scarred over eye or a one-handed druid or what have you).

Quote from: jhkim;1146607
There are people who identify with nearsightedness, though. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most popular fantasy series in the last few decades had a hero who was a nerdy kid who wore glasses (Harry Potter). I think a lot of kids identified with that, which drove a lot of its popularity.

I mean, apart from the scar, I looked pretty much exactly like Harry Potter as a kid (I was the same age as Harry when the first books came out too), I even had a red-headed best friend. But my younger sister got just as into it (more eventually, as the series progressed) and she didn't look like Harry Potter. Also, Potter isn't exactly nerdy. He wears glasses sure, but apart from that where is the nerdiness? He plays in organized sports, becoming team captain eventually, and his best academic subject is basically self defense, while he finds history and similar subjects incredibly tedious. He also doesn't seem to have any interest in say fantasy or science fiction or the like. Basically, all you have at that point is glasses=nerdy, which is a conception we have in parts of Europe and North America (the stereotypical smart kid in Japanese media for instance does not usually wear glasses).

In fact, I often find fictional characters that are clearly meant to be like me in order to appeal to me kind of unappealing. If someone is constantly talking up their nerd interests I find myself going "shut up and get on with the story." I would not have considered Buffy (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) a more relatable character to me if she had been a fan of D&D, wore glasses and listened to Queen and Fleetwood Mac instead of trip hop. It would have just felt weirdly pandering.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 12:16:56 PM by Blankman »

tenbones

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« Reply #191 on: August 27, 2020, 10:33:28 AM »
Let us think of the 10% of the population that is totally not represented in D&D...

Left-handed people.

Not once is there positive representation of left-handed people NOT ONCE. No left-handed wheel-chair brakes on Combat Wheelchairs. WTF? It's like we don't exist. Left-handed scissors in the Village Hommlet? NONE!!!! Why no left-handed writing system in D&D? No left-handed bard representation with their lutes strung backwards!

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« Reply #192 on: August 27, 2020, 11:00:39 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;1146666
Let us think of the 10% of the population that is totally not represented in D&D...

Left-handed people.

Not once is there positive representation of left-handed people NOT ONCE. No left-handed wheel-chair brakes on Combat Wheelchairs. WTF? It's like we don't exist. Left-handed scissors in the Village Hommlet? NONE!!!! Why no left-handed writing system in D&D? No left-handed bard representation with their lutes strung backwards!

Left handed people have a well-known advantage in melee combat. Where is that advantage in the rules!!!!!

Disclaimer: I am strongly right-handed.

Omega

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« Reply #193 on: August 27, 2020, 12:21:56 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1146666
Let us think of the 10% of the population that is totally not represented in D&D...

Left-handed people.

Not once is there positive representation of left-handed people NOT ONCE. No left-handed wheel-chair brakes on Combat Wheelchairs. WTF? It's like we don't exist. Left-handed scissors in the Village Hommlet? NONE!!!! Why no left-handed writing system in D&D? No left-handed bard representation with their lutes strung backwards!

If its any consolation. Star Frontiers has handedness, and ambidexterity.

Joking aside.

What these cultists glibly cover up is the little fact that you can play about anything in D&D and most other RPGs as long as you are creative and the DM OKs it.

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« Reply #194 on: August 27, 2020, 12:50:07 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1146679
If its any consolation. Star Frontiers has handedness, and ambidexterity.

Joking aside.

What these cultists glibly cover up is the little fact that you can play about anything in D&D and most other RPGs as long as you are creative and the DM OKs it.


...and we never needed the publishers permission OR 'guidance' to do so.
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