I have to give Monte Cook credit for his marketing skills. He wants $197 for his new rpg, we know almost nothing concrete about it, and he has already raised over $60,000 in a few hours. Also, he has sold one pledge for $5912.
Invisible Sun
https://www.google.com/search?q=invisible+sun+kickstarter&oq=invisible+&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i60l2j69i57j0j69i59.7244j0j4&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Gimmicky board game hybrid? Reminds me a lot of Fantasy Flight Game's take on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com), but at a much steeper price.
No page counts. No rule previews. Not even if the rulebooks are hard or softcover.
Quote from: Kravell;912979No page counts. No rule previews. Not even if the rulebooks are hard or softcover.
Over a year out with some pretty big promises, too.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;912978Gimmicky board game hybrid? Reminds me a lot of Fantasy Flight Game's take on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com), but at a much steeper price.
Hey! I love the Zweihander rpg (backing as Charlie D). I really hope it gets the commons license.
But will it have a small and vicious dog?
Quote from: Kravell;912981Hey! I love the Zweihander rpg (backing as Charlie D). I really hope it gets the commons license.
But will it have a small and vicious dog?
Like this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]292[/ATTACH]
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;912982Like this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]292[/ATTACH]
You need more of my money.
I wouldn't have a problem paying $197 for a deluxe RPG treatment. But this Invisible Sun isn't it.
I have multiple games that I have this kind of investment in, but, Invisible Sun looks like the kind of game that is not well suited to teh players I have. Also for me to slap down that kind of cash for a game I want to know more about what I am getting up front, like how does it play? This seems like it does a lot of things that games like Kult or Unknown Armies do, but in a differet way. I have Kult, and Majus, and OneDice Urban Fantasy when I want to scratch that "the world we know is an illusion" itch.
I am sure this is a quality game, but I'll pass.
I have to read a game's die mechanic first before I'll buy it.
I have dropped that much multiple times on deluxe versions of RPGs. In fact, right now I'm staring longingly at my Call of Cthulhu 7e slipcase with Investigator's Handbook, Keeper's Rulebook, Keeper's Screen, handouts, adventure, etc.
I don't know that I'd drop it on this particular RPG, but the price isn't the crazy thing, given a look at those components. OTOH, there's no way I have that much money for something like that so soon after GenCon. (Stares longingly at his Cthulhu Brittanica: London boxed set, so lean and sexy and packed with goodness.)
There really are a lot of mugs with too much disposable income in this world.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;912999I have to read a game's die mechanic first before I'll buy it.
I remember when Mentzer was pitching Cyborg Commando, and talked about his amazing die mechanic too.
Anyway, I dunno. Yes, I've plunked down that kind of money on D&D and a precious few other RPGs, but I'm not getting such a warm fuzzy feeling here, at least not as a game. As a financial investment? I have my doubts there, but crazier things have happened, and we're already in crazy land with the number of folks coughing up 4-figures for this not-yet-existing game.
That is just the price if you are doing the kickstarter. Kickstarter levels and cover prices are not necessarily the same thing. I don't think that is going to be the actual price of the game when it comes out. Is there any info on this. 197 for a kickstarter is too steep for me, but I'd like to grab a copy of the book if it is regular price when they do release it.
It seems to me that someone decided that you can capitalise on catering to a teenage fanbase 20 years after its time, in this case the White Wolf craze, as they will now be earning money to buy stuff.
I'm already a a backer at the $197 level. Waiting to see if the directed campaign materials will be worth spending the extra cash on.
This was an incredibly easy decision for me: Monte Cook has spent the past 16 years almost relentlessly producing stuff that I enjoy. His products have made up the significant majority of my total RPG playing time during that time period and have been responsible for creating many of my favorite gaming memories.
Maybe I'll get unlucky and this will end up being in the 5% of stuff he's produced that I don't enjoy. But based on his track record and what I've seen of what the game offers, I'm more than willing to sign up for this ride.
A collectable rpg with a random reward mechanism? I will never accept the CCG model in rpgs. Not for minis, and not for rules, not even as some kind of transmedia RPGAAS model experiment.
RPGAAS=Roleplaying Game As A Service
Quote from: Doom;913015As a financial investment? I have my doubts there, but crazier things have happened, and we're already in crazy land with the number of folks coughing up 4-figures for this not-yet-existing game.
Actually, as a financial investment it's close to a sure bet. These limited run luxury items by established creators almost always increase in value. Look at how much a used copy of Ptolus or Wilderlands of High Fantasy will run you today. If cash flow isn't a problem, you'd be smart to buy two copies, use one as a playing set, keep the other in shrink, and then five years later sell them both for a handsome profit.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913030A collectable rpg with a random reward mechanism? I will never accept the CCG model in rpgs. Not for minis, and not for rules, not even as some kind of transmedia RPGAAS model experiment.
RPGAAS=Roleplaying Game As A Service
Agreed
I like stuff that Monte has done. Not crazy about Numenera but lots of people like it, don't know. But here's what I do know. One hundred and ninety dollars for an RPG that gives no details of the system. Or as Kreuger says its a Roleplaying Game As A Service. Doesn't sound ideal. But more or less 2 hundo for a game. Fuck that. Yeah I've definitely spend more on games. But in way smaller chucks. 20-40 here and there. Thats way easier to swallow. 200, and no overview of the system? Pass.....
"no details of the system"
What does the "actual play" video show?
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913052"no details of the system"
What does the "actual play" video show?
Monte tells the character that they've found a castle with a crazy swirling fog around it. The players cast some spells. Monte draws a round card and puts it on a sun board. Looks like one roll was d10 6 or higher. One player determines the fog is a living spell and it is pissed. Game wraps.
Monte meets with one player at a coffee shop. They talk about the castle. Player says she may have been there before. He looks at an app on his phone. Says rolls for this encounter would be 5 or higher.
Back to the full game. One player can't make it; his character is back in the real world for a while. Other players don't know what to do. Player from coffee shop pulls off her face and interacts with the fog to get rid of it. They can now enter the castle.
So I see two d10 rolls against a 6 and a five, a round card draw that looked purely narrative, some spells talked about, and Monte looking at an app (which we don't see). Also, the plastic hand was not on the table, when it seemed like it should have been.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913052"no details of the system"
What does the "actual play" video show?
Quote from: Kravell;913057Monte tells the character that they've found a castle with a crazy swirling fog around it. The players cast some spells. Monte draws a round card and puts it on a sun board. Looks like one roll was d10 6 or higher. One player determines the fog is a living spell and it is pissed. Game wraps.
Monte meets with one player at a coffee shop. They talk about the castle. Player says she may have been there before. He looks at an app on his phone. Says rolls for this encounter would be 5 or higher.
Back to the full game. One player can't make it; his character is back in the real world for a while. Other players don't know what to do. Player from coffee shop pulls off her face and interacts with the fog to get rid of it. They can now enter the castle.
So I see two d10 rolls against a 6 and a five, a round card draw that looked purely narrative, some spells talked about, and Monte looking at an app (which we don't see). Also, the plastic hand was not on the table, when it seemed like it should have been.
I mean that all sounds pretty clear right?
Quote from: Ronin;913061I mean that all sounds pretty clear right?
pretty clear-ly not interesting enough to be worth a $200 buy in.
Ding ding
Quote from: Ronin;913061I mean that all sounds pretty clear right?
Quote from: Kravell;913057Monte tells the character that they've found a castle with a crazy swirling fog around it. The players cast some spells. Monte draws a round card and puts it on a sun board. Looks like one roll was d10 6 or higher. One player determines the fog is a living spell and it is pissed. Game wraps.
Monte meets with one player at a coffee shop. They talk about the castle. Player says she may have been there before. He looks at an app on his phone. Says rolls for this encounter would be 5 or higher.
Back to the full game. One player can't make it; his character is back in the real world for a while. Other players don't know what to do. Player from coffee shop pulls off her face and interacts with the fog to get rid of it. They can now enter the castle.
So I see two d10 rolls against a 6 and a five, a round card draw that looked purely narrative, some spells talked about, and Monte looking at an app (which we don't see). Also, the plastic hand was not on the table, when it seemed like it should have been.
Leave it to Monte Cook to make Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock look reasonable.
I'd pay $200 for a reprint of FASA Trek. That would be about it though.
Quote from: Celestial;913093I'd pay $200 for a reprint of FASA Trek. That would be about it though.
If it included the tactical simulator and the rpg, I'd be down with that.
Does the game have a collectible card element, or is it just an RPG that uses (Non-collectible) cards?
Monte is a smart cat, and I dig the Clive Barker-ish vibe of Invisible Sun, but after dropping fifty bucks each on The Driftwood Verses kickstarter and (The utterly exquisite and worth every penny) Maze of the Blue Medusa hardcover I gotta be a semi-responsible adult and declare "No more lavish RPG purchases for the rest of the year".
Don't get me wrong.
Justin Alexander is correct - Monte Cook delivers, and he delivers with high quality.
Unfortunately for me, what he delivers is not what I look for in a roleplaying game. His games and mechanics lately have too much of an OOC eye to third person storytelling about my character, in addition to roleplaying my character.
The settings however that his company are producing seem wildly inventive.
I do however hate the "random sun element" unless you pay for the add-on to get more, and the unique KS secrets, and the ongoing campaign on a subscription, and the app.
It looks absolutely fascinating, as a storytelling game, but when it comes to roleplaying, I'm a much simpler dude. I roleplay my character.
Man, I really wanted to excited about this, but... It's got a phone ap, plus some kind of collectable and/or semi-collectable cards (It's not clear), some kind of medallions, secret codes hidden in the books, the "Directed campaign" subscription... It's just seems like TOO MUCH. Like buying a whole new hobby rather than just a game.
Talking myself out of buying this wasn't terribly hard.
THIS IS NOT A WHOLE NEW WAY TO PLAY
I was doing this pervasively in 1992 in my Shadowrun campaign.
FFS, Monte, WTF?
"Changing The Way RPGs Are Played": "Side scenes (http://invisiblesunrpg.com/corona/changingthewayrpgsareplayed/)"
EDIT:
Also, the "Directed Campaign" isn't a new thing, either. WEG tried something similar with Torg's Infiniverse campaign, where they would send individual groups custom adventure seeds, and module results would materially affect how the game world developed. Yeah, it's not identical to this, but it's not all that different, either.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913238THIS IS NOT A WHOLE NEW WAY TO PLAY
I was doing this pervasively in 1992 in my Shadowrun campaign.
FFS, Monte, WTF?
"Changing The Way RPGs Are Played": "Side scenes (http://invisiblesunrpg.com/corona/changingthewayrpgsareplayed/)"
EDIT:
Also, the "Directed Campaign" isn't a new thing, either. WEG tried something similar with Torg's Infiniverse campaign, where they would send individual groups custom adventure seeds, and module results would materially affect how the game world developed. Yeah, it's not identical to this, but it's not all that different, either.
I agree. In fact, the play example looks just like a regular play session for any RPG. Very few of the props are even used.
But Monte really seems to believe it and he really sells it. His marketing fu is strong with a few thousand people. And he will make it sell. It is amazing to watch him market.
I'm sure that in a past life Monte was a travelling salesman who purveyed patent medicines to the gullible.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;913253I'm sure that in a past life Monte was a travelling salesman who purveyed patent medicines to the gullible.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]293[/ATTACH] Monte, is this yours?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;913260[ATTACH=CONFIG]293[/ATTACH]
That looks like a fun evening
200 hundred dollars American is... a lot of Brazilian money. And that's before shipping and customs taxes. So, no.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913148The settings however that his company are producing seem wildly inventive.
Umm. I don't know, are they? What's Numenera got on dozens of other science fantasy settings? What's The Strange got on, say, GURPS Infinite Earths?
I've been a fan of Monte's work in the past (Arcana Unearthed/Evolved!) but nowadays the draw his stuff exerts on me is like 50% production values, 40% hype and 10% stuff I find really clever or useful.
That being said, I still want to give the Cypher System a shot.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913238THIS IS NOT A WHOLE NEW WAY TO PLAY
Aaron Allston called this "bluebooking" in a 1988 Champions sourcebook (Strike Force). We did it all the time. Yeah, older than dirt. Maybe he's setting up explicit systems around the concept? That I'd like to see.
Strange maybe not so much, Numenera I thought was pretty cool with the "Billion Years in the Future, so many Ages and Races have ruled Earth so one even knows what Human is anymore or cares" was pretty different actually. Gods of the Fall maybe not so much considering the rebirth of "God Games", Predation looked to be pretty cool and different twist on Time Travel and Dinosaurs, but Unmasked I thought was just a crazyass look at Supers.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913326Numenera I thought was pretty cool with the "Billion Years in the Future, so many Ages and Races have ruled Earth so one even knows what Human is anymore or cares" was pretty different actually.
I'll give you that it's a fascinating image, and put to good use in character creation and maybe in the bestiary — there _are_ sone good ideas in Numenera and I _want_ to like it — but I found the setting gazetteer underwhelming.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913326Gods of the Fall maybe not so much considering the rebirth of "God Games",
I'd actually love to look at this gazetter and see what I could steal for my Godbound game.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913326Predation looked to be pretty cool and different twist on Time Travel and Dinosaurs,
Yeah, I read this one's Kickstarter blurb. Isn't it kind of a one-trick pony? Feels like "Dinosaurs Are Awesome: The RPG"
Quote from: CRKrueger;913326but Unmasked I thought was just a crazyass look at Supers.
This one I don't recall, what is it like?
Nope. Ain't even lightly interested in the product, except I am interested in the marketing.
Gotta give Monte credit. He leapfrogged in price beyond the fancy KS boardgames and actually is making it work for him.
Quote from: Spinachcat;913350Nope. Ain't even lightly interested in the product, except I am interested in the marketing.
Gotta give Monte credit. He leapfrogged in price beyond the fancy KS boardgames and actually is making it work for him.
Yup. He definitely priced himself out of my range for sure. Nothing wrong with catering to an even higher level of the luxury market though I wonder how many backers are merely going to get it for the sake of collecting rather than actually playing it
Quote from: Harlock;913083Leave it to Monte Cook to make Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock look reasonable.
Good think I wasn't drinking anything when I read this.
Tom
Quote from: Kravell;913240I agree. In fact, the play example looks just like a regular play session for any RPG. Very few of the props are even used.
But Monte really seems to believe it and he really sells it. His marketing fu is strong with a few thousand people. And he will make it sell. It is amazing to watch him market.
Mindless drones, who worship Monte because of D&D 3.5 days.
It really does feel like scam, but everyone has a choice.
Btw. isn't it "other game" and not RPG by this communities standard?
I love Cypher system and there's no way I will ever be willing to pay that much for any RPG.
Quote from: Spinachcat;913350Nope. Ain't even lightly interested in the product, except I am interested in the marketing.
Gotta give Monte credit. He leapfrogged in price beyond the fancy KS boardgames and actually is making it work for him.
I agree.
Snake-oil.
Quote from: CRKrueger;913030A collectable rpg with a random reward mechanism? I will never accept the CCG model in rpgs. Not for minis, and not for rules, not even as some kind of transmedia RPGAAS model experiment.
Agreed. I have never been interested in CCGs and the model makes no sense at all for the type of RPGs I enjoy.
I went back and looked at Monte's first kickstarter for Numenera. He used his name twice in the description. Then he was very earnest and humble in the updates.
Most importantly he delivered the huge finished product. I can see why some people want to give him money.
But he still isn't going to change how people roleplay. That sounds like pure marketing hype. I wish he would just say what the characters will be doing and the mechanics behind it.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;913367Yup. He definitely priced himself out of my range for sure. Nothing wrong with catering to an even higher level of the luxury market though I wonder how many backers are merely going to get it for the sake of collecting rather than actually playing it
I would not be surprised if more copies are purchased for colectibility than for play.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913238THIS IS NOT A WHOLE NEW WAY TO PLAY
I was doing this pervasively in 1992 in my Shadowrun campaign.
FFS, Monte, WTF?
"Changing The Way RPGs Are Played": "Side scenes (http://invisiblesunrpg.com/corona/changingthewayrpgsareplayed/)"
After reading the blurb and reading the solo gaming thread, I'm wondering about what he means by this:
"is game facilitates and encourages players to take (and resolve) actions away from the game table, either alone or as a group."
How can one resolve any actions alone unless he means GM + 1 player. The closest thing that comes to mind is blue booking/journaling, and what he says about one of his players seems to be in line with that:
"A lot later on, as an adult, I ran another D&D campaign. This time, I noticed one of the players was very quiet. She didn't seem engaged, and thus didn't say much at the table. One night, after a game, I approached her and asked if she was enjoying herself. I fully expected to learn that she wasn't into it. Instead, I got a half-hour discussion of what her character felt about the events of the game, the NPCs they'd met, the other PCs, and so on. In other words, what I didn't realize was that she had this whole rich inner life of thoughts and opinions, but had not expressed them at the table because she was not a big talker in groups of people. She was very much enjoying the game, but in a very different way from the other players. In fact, she was probably spending more time away from the table thinking about her character and the events going on than anyone else."
Maybe he's found an interesting way to expand these activities, who knows. Worth $197? Not for me, but I won't begrudge anyone who wants to pay up.
Didn't Monte retire from writing RPGs a decade ago...three or four times?
Slightly more seriously, I think that he does do a good job of delivering on his promises, but I'm rather amazed at the degree of success he's had at turning his name into a brand. In the RPG community, that's quite rare, or at least it seems that way.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;913443How can one resolve any actions alone unless he means GM + 1 player. The closest thing that comes to mind is blue booking/journaling, and what he says about one of his players seems to be in line with that:
Perhaps the phone app has some sort of resolution system.
Quote from: Harlock;913448Perhaps the phone app has some sort of resolution system.
An integrated notes system, to keep track of campaign events, would seem to be requisite.
Quote from: DavetheLost;913428I would not be surprised if more copies are purchased for colectibility than for play.
That's probably true for more RPG items than people around here would like to admit, especially the big and costly ones. I love Frog God Games' stuff, but how many copies of the Slumbering Tsar or Sword of Air have ever seen play at the table? Same with Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Frankly, I doubt commercial RPG publishers are big enough these days to survive without collectors. Even the big boys like Paizo rely on a very large percentage of customers who buy and read but don't play. The historical wargaming hobby recognized this long ago, and nobody seems to mind the customer base is about equally divided between collectors, solo players, and active players. They need all groups to keep the games viable.
I will admit to buying into the recent Mutant Crawl Classics KS more as a collector than a potential GM. Grimtooth's Complete and Cthulhu Wars much the same. Although I do hope to actually play the latter someday.
My group from college would have played this, and I would have tried to buy it then. We played the hell out of Kult which seems in some ways similar. Also a fair bit of White Wolf. But, today that group is dispersed, and I have other games that do what this one seems to do.
I still reqd RPGs for fun, even if I don't intend to play them.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;913367Yup. He definitely priced himself out of my range for sure. Nothing wrong with catering to an even higher level of the luxury market though I wonder how many backers are merely going to get it for the sake of collecting rather than actually playing it
There probably are quite a few. I'd be wary of picking this as an investment though. Depending on how the app works, it might be rendered unusable at some point.
Quote from: Haffrung;913518That's probably true for more RPG items than people around here would like to admit, especially the big and costly ones. I love Frog God Games' stuff, but how many copies of the Slumbering Tsar or Sword of Air have ever seen play at the table? Same with Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Frankly, I doubt commercial RPG publishers are big enough these days to survive without collectors. Even the big boys like Paizo rely on a very large percentage of customers who buy and read but don't play. The historical wargaming hobby recognized this long ago, and nobody seems to mind the customer base is about equally divided between collectors, solo players, and active players. They need all groups to keep the games viable.
It's been this way for a long time. When I was in gaming retail 20 years ago, there was a sizable number of regulars who never actually played anything. When I played D&D thirty years ago there were plenty of kids who got a Red Box for Christmas and never did anything with it.
Quote from: Baulderstone;913586When I played D&D thirty years ago there were plenty of kids who got a Red Box for Christmas and never did anything with it.
Track those little tykes down and tell them to put those dadgum things up on eBay. I could use a few more mint copies!
Quote from: Harlock;913590Track those little tykes down and tell them to put those dadgum things up on eBay. I could use a few more mint copies!
I already took one of them for myself. I started with the Moldvay B/X Purple Box. A few years later I was visiting a kid across the street and he had a Red Box sitting in his closet, still in the shrink wrap. He'd gotten it for a gift and had no interest in it, so I happily took it off his hands and spent an afternoon playing the solo adventure. I still have them, boxes intact and all. I have the Moldvay Expert book, but the box was flattened many years ago.
Ironically, my sturdier AD&D hardbacks were ruined in a basement flood.
I just re-acquired a copy of C&S 2e at a con last weekend. Box is a bit battered but the contents including the original character sheet are still in almost pristine condition. Played the hell out of C&S 1e & 2e back in the day, even wrote for third edition. But our games and especially the sort of games I play nowadays often don't get any players who are so involved in the game that they'd pay 30-40 dollars for a rule book. It's mostly down to the GM to buy the material and the players reluctantly agree to play according to the amount of effort the GM put's into his elevator speech about the game setting and that's tempered by the likelihood of having to learn a new system.
Players generally seem to be stuck in a rut where the game system they first learned is almost the only one they'll play unless it's really, really simple and some won't even play any sort of narrative system as they have to think rather than hit the target even social interaction is 'I roll Charm or Charisma' rather than speak actual words in character.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913464An integrated notes system, to keep track of campaign events, would seem to be requisite.
It would also have to track "rolls" made by the players and discretely share them with the GM's app.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;913640I just re-acquired a copy of C&S 2e at a con last weekend. Box is a bit battered but the contents including the original character sheet are still in almost pristine condition. Played the hell out of C&S 1e & 2e back in the day, even wrote for third edition. But our games and especially the sort of games I play nowadays often don't get any players who are so involved in the game that they'd pay 30-40 dollars for a rule book. It's mostly down to the GM to buy the material and the players reluctantly agree to play according to the amount of effort the GM put's into his elevator speech about the game setting and that's tempered by the likelihood of having to learn a new system.
Players generally seem to be stuck in a rut where the game system they first learned is almost the only one they'll play unless it's really, really simple and some won't even play any sort of narrative system as they have to think rather than hit the target even social interaction is 'I roll Charm or Charisma' rather than speak actual words in character.
My players will "play" any game I set in front of them. But they won't RTFM and certainly won't buy the book. They also pretty much want to murderhobo their way through everything with no engagement with the setting. One of my players could probably get by with one stat for all his characters "Punch Stuff in the Face". I don't need to shell out two hundred bucks for that!
When Empire of the Petal Throne was released by TSR in 1975, it was $25 (it was also rather extravagantly put together compared to the other TSR products of the day). That's the equivalent of $121; so this is not unprecedented. Hell, the core set for Descent is $100 +/- and all the recent editions of Space Hulk have been well over a hundred bucks (granted the last two are not role-playing games but there we are).
I'm in for $197. I've spent a lot more than that on most game lines that I play. Heck, I'm about to start running Horror on the Orient Express next month, an adventure that I spent more than $100 for.
I can buy an entry-level shotgun for that money. Fuck no. No TRPG is worth more than double-digits, and not more than low ones- not when I can just take D&D and mod it to fit.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;913787I can buy an entry-level shotgun for that money. Fuck no. No TRPG is worth more than double-digits, and not more than low ones- not when I can just take D&D and mod it to fit.
I like you. I want an entry level shotgun as a home defense tool. My bird gun is my Grandaddy's Sweet Sixteen.
And sort of on topic - So after Mike Mearls moves on from D&D, do you think he too will follow the Monte Cook path and start publishing his own games under his own brand? I know Monte built up his rep well after his work on Mystara and subsequent titular appearance on 3rd edition. I just wonder if it might be a viable path for Mr. Mearls.
Quote from: Harlock;913824I know Monte built up his rep well after his work on Mystara and subsequent titular appearance on 3rd edition.
I think you mean
Planescape; insofar as I'm aware, the only Mystara product Monte Cook ever worked on was the
Glantri: Kingdom of Magic boxed set, and he shared that credit with Bruce Heard (who's a much bigger name where Mystara was concerned). Even then, 3E was what really got Monte's name out there (that and being one of the very first guys to put out third-party OGL content via PDFs).
Quote from: Alzrius;913825I think you mean Planescape; insofar as I'm aware, the only Mystara product Monte Cook ever worked on was the Glantri: Kingdom of Magic boxed set, and he shared that credit with Bruce Heard (who's a much bigger name where Mystara was concerned). Even then, 3E was what really got Monte's name out there (that and being one of the very first guys to put out third-party OGL content via PDFs).
Nope. Glantri is to what I was referring. It was one of his earlier works that I remembered, probably because I am such a fan of the setting and BECMI. I was using it merely to say, he's come a long way.
Also, I have about $2300 in Dwarven Forge and probably an equal amount of miniatures* so I'm in no position to call anyone's bluff on spending (or charging) $197 for an RPG.
(*and at least, with the Dwarven Forge, I'm considered a piker...)
It seems to me he's trying hard to find what the upper bound is for what whales are willing to pay for his name.
I don't disparage him for it. It's a totally valid tactic for how to earn a living trying to find who will pay you the most for you labor. It wont be me but I begrudge him for trying.
Quote from: Harlock;913824I like you. I want an entry level shotgun as a home defense tool. My bird gun is my Grandaddy's Sweet Sixteen.
The Mossberg Maverick 88 is a good choice for a decent quality, simple, reliable home defense shotgun.
[Totally off-topic gun video (of all things) removed. Admin]
Quote from: Bunch;913931It seems to me he's trying hard to find what the upper bound is for what whales are willing to pay for his name.
I don't disparage him for it. It's a totally valid tactic for how to earn a living trying to find who will pay you the most for you labor. It wont be me but I begrudge him for trying.
There's nothing wrong with what he is doing. He's not trying to trick people out of their money. People are freely choosing to pay that. It's a voluntary exchange people are choosing to participate in. If that's what they want to do with their money, that's their business.
Quote from: yosemitemike;913935The Mossberg Maverick 88 is a good choice for a decent quality, simple, reliable home defense shotgun.
[Totally off-topic gun video (of all things) removed. Admin]
There's nothing wrong with what he is doing. He's not trying to trick people out of their money. People are freely choosing to pay that. It's a voluntary exchange people are choosing to participate in. If that's what they want to do with their money, that's their business.
Yeah sorry didnt mean to imply he was being deceptive in any way.
Just for comparison, how much was the Kingdom Death Kickstarter pledge (for the actual base game)?
Say what you will about the controversial art: the rules are pretty damn awesome and I'd gladly have paid nearly 200$ for all that stuff.
Quote from: Bunch;913984Yeah sorry didnt mean to imply he was being deceptive in any way.
I was agreeing with you.
Quote from: yosemitemike;913935The Mossberg Maverick 88 is a good choice for a decent quality, simple, reliable home defense shotgun.
It's junk. There's a reason why there's a ton of them at gun shows. Remington 870 is far superior. For ony a few bucks more. But whatever back on topic.
Quote from: yosemitemike;913935There's nothing wrong with what he is doing. He's not trying to trick people out of their money. People are freely choosing to pay that. It's a voluntary exchange people are choosing to participate in. If that's what they want to do with their money, that's their business.
I agree with this statement. I have to say on my part. It's too much money, and perhaps to new fangled/all over the place. God I feel like an old grognard after saying that. Fuck maybe I am. Son of a .........
It seems a bit steep for just a core game, but in terms of production value it may well be worth the money. I have spent more on Kickstarted games, but not for just a core game. What I've seen of this particular game doesn't appeal to me, but to each his own.
I dropped that on SJG's Ogre Designer's Edition KS. Almost 100 times what I payed for my first copy, $2.95 all those years ago. And from what I understand that beast was selling very very close to production cost when all was said and done. I don't know but that MCG may be in a similar situation with Invisible Sun. High production value, limited run, niche game.
Okay, I missed one, Villains and Vigilantes in a new boxed edition with, you guessed it, miniatures.
Edit* Though really, one inch busts of the character's heads would be most appropriate. V&V always assumed table top play and included counter sheets in most of its adventures, with one inch portraits of the characters.
Expensive and overpriced are not interchangeable terms. Some people in the hobby seem incapable of grasping this.
I haven't decided yet if Invisible Sun is expensive or overpriced. It is priced at more than what I want to pay for what it appears to offer me. I would probably be willing to pay fifty for a full pdf only version. It is intriguing, just not two-hundred dollars worth.
The problem with overpriced and worth is they are purely subjective. You could claim a game gives you more minis for x money, or has thicker pages, or compare color vs. black and white, or production cost vs. retail cost, but after every possible hard dollar and cent fact has been gathered, people will still buy it or not depending on its subjective worth to them.
Nostalgia is expensive, and maybe overpriced also.
So, was looking at this Kickstarter today. A friend had sent me the link since the write-up reminded him of elements of my old Mage and Kult campaigns. Honestly, it looks very pretty, but I have games that cover this territory already. Also I never seem to enjoy running other people's campaigns. I inevitably put my on spin on the events, so the directed campaign doesn't really interest me. It's pretty much a pass for me.
One thing that struck me as interesting about Invisible Sun was the deck of cards. They looked awfully similar to the cards used in the game Everway. The scant description of their use also seems reminiscent of that. Was Cook involved in Everway?
Also, I'm a child of the 80s so now I have that damn Police song stuck in my head.
I'm a huge Cypher fan and love Numenera, The Strange and Gods of the Fall, so I was excited about IS. They would've had my money if the KS wasn't a fiddly fucking mess with moronic prestige awards based on third party social media. Secrets are fine, but give them to me to hand out. Don't obfuscate the important aspects of the game because it's "Ermegerd! Kewl!". It's not. It's annoying. I've asked simple questions repeatedly and have yet to receive anything more than, "Soon...". Fuck that.
If I can get it next November, I probably will. There is no reason to buy it now. You get jack and shit extra for the base pledge. Very cool looking game...abysmal KS.
Quote from: jux;913405Mindless drones, who worship Monte because of D&D 3.5 days.
What I don't get is why Tweet isn't treated with the same reverence? I mean, he probably had a lot more to do with the actually GOOD ideas in 3e, based on everything he produced before and after vs. what Cook has produced.
Quote from: RPGPundit;915630What I don't get is why Tweet isn't treated with the same reverence? I mean, he probably had a lot more to do with the actually GOOD ideas in 3e, based on everything he produced before and after vs. what Cook has produced.
Wondered that too. But Tweet for some reason allways rubbed me the wrong way. I think some of his magazine articles were good. But his RPG writing to me at least allways comes off... not right. Unlike Cook though he doesnt seem to be cashing in on his name (or at least as much). And more riding on the merits of his work. (what little I've seen) Which I respect.
How about he actually writes and produces the game, and then we decide if it's worth it?
I realise this is all free market capitalist and therefore unfashionable these days where everyone just appeals to our sense of charity, but I'm old-fashioned, what can I say.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;915671How about he actually writes and produces the game, and then we decide if it's worth it?
I realise this is all free market capitalist and therefore unfashionable these days where everyone just appeals to our sense of charity, but I'm old-fashioned, what can I say.
There's nothing uncapitalistic about making your customers take the investment risk. It's just really clever, ruthless free market practice.
Quote from: RPGPundit;915630What I don't get is why Tweet isn't treated with the same reverence? I mean, he probably had a lot more to do with the actually GOOD ideas in 3e, based on everything he produced before and after vs. what Cook has produced.
Too much of a Storygames designer. ;)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;915671How about he actually writes and produces the game, and then we decide if it's worth it?
I realise this is all free market capitalist and therefore unfashionable these days where everyone just appeals to our sense of charity, but I'm old-fashioned, what can I say.
For me what MCG have already said about the game and how they are putting out information on the game world are a real turn off. The cost is not that much more than the slipcase for Call of Cthulhu 7e, $129.99. D&D 5e has an MSRP of $149.85 for the three core books, plus $14.95 for the GM screen. So IS is priced about market standard for a high end RPG. It does offer a pretty good lot of stuff in the box.
It's just being presented in an elitist and deliberately obfuscatory manner that putting many of us off.
Quote from: DavetheLost;915685It's just being presented in an elitist and deliberately obfuscatory manner that putting many of us off.
I actually agree with Dave here.
I listened to an interview with Monte (on the Tome Show) to figure out what the hell this was about.
And frankly, it does sound cool. The basic concept is "reality is a magic-Matrix, and you are the neos of the setting". Which works for me.
The idea of rules that recognize the reality that not all gaming groups can play week-in week-out Friday 6-12 is good. Making the ideas of smaller sessions with a subset of players a fun and do-able gaming experience is good.
Nonetheless, I'm not sure I can commit. With any luck, Monte will churn out some rules ideas that make it to the larger gaming world, but given the Cypher System (which is a serious meh in my book), and I don't get the immediate impression this would displace anything in my current gaming palette, I'm less certain than I'd like to be that the cost is worth it for me.
Quote from: Ronin;915694I actually agree with Dave here.
You sound surprised.
I shall try to be less agreeable in future. ;)
Quote from: yosemitemike;914553Expensive and overpriced are not interchangeable terms. Some people in the hobby seem incapable of grasping this.
Hang on, are you trying to tell me that anyone who charges more than I'd pay for a game product isn't necessarily a deceptive, greedy fuck who is trying to shit all over the little guy?
Quote from: Omega;915665Unlike Cook though he doesnt seem to be cashing in on his name (or at least as much). And more riding on the merits of his work. (what little I've seen) Which I respect.
You can't make a living in the creative economy without making a name for yourself. You are your brand. That's just reality. And why do you think Cook has a name to begin with? Presumably it's because he has a lot of happy customers who enjoy his work. And good for him. Not many people can earn a full-time living at RPGs, and we should appreciate whenever someone can, even if they make products we don't like.
The amount of resentment in this hobby never fails to astound me. Such a night and day difference with the boardgaming hobby, where hobbyists support designers and publishers and don't have a problem with them trying to make money.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;915695The basic concept is "reality is a magic-Matrix, and you are the neos of the setting".
Again, that kinda sounds a bit like Kult... though I assume it's not dark and full of horrors.
I was surprised when I did the price check on CoC 7 and D&D 5e, just picking two games at how close they came to IS in price. You could easilly drop the same and more on FFG Star Wars, or The One Ring from C7. How much was John Wick asking for 7th Sea?
I know I dropped $200 on Ogre designer's edition. That on a box full of cardboard.
There are board games I look at the price on and scratch my head. But having maps and counters and boxes printed is not cheap. Never mind the tooling to make the plastic figures that are so popular these days.
$200 for IS may be more than I want to pay, but that has more to do with spending money on a game I likely won't play.
I think another difference at least with 5e. Is that you don't feel the full brunt of the cost all at once. 50 here, another 50 a couple months later, and etc. It makes it more palatable.
Quote from: RPGPundit;915630What I don't get is why Tweet isn't treated with the same reverence? I mean, he probably had a lot more to do with the actually GOOD ideas in 3e, based on everything he produced before and after vs. what Cook has produced.
1. d20 World of Darkness
2. Ptolus and lots of 3e material
3. Cook is just a way cooler name than Tweet, even after Twitter came out.
4. Monte makes him sound British, therefore smarter. Glasses help.
5. Cook looks semi-normal, Tweet looks like the type of gamer you avoid at a FLGS.
6. Tweet's Rick Rubin, everyone has heard of his name, everyone in the industry wants to work with him. 99% of people who love his work wouldn't recognize him sitting across from them. Monte Cook is Eminem, his name is on the direct covers of a lot more product, and his controversies against The Man (WotC) and The Soccer Moms (SJW stuff) give him street cred.
7. Monte bangs a hot sex-positive feminist. Tweet, who knows, could be a basement dweller.
8. Tweet gets together with a bunch of other people (his name lower billing) on a 4e knockoff called a "Loveletter to D&D". Cook makes a cardboard Hellraiser Cube and stuffs a game inside.
9. Monte aggressively markets his stuff. I only know Tweet's still around because I haven't seen anything announcing otherwise.
Quote from: Rincewind1;915678There's nothing uncapitalistic about making your customers take the investment risk. It's just really clever, ruthless free market practice.
In normal business, investors will get a share of the profit, if any.
Of course, there are variations where the guy begging for money just takes it and runs, and the USA has been an innovator in fraudulent practices for decades, so it shouldn't surprise us that kickstarters come from there, too.
1. make the product
2. sell the product
3. use the money earned to increase amount and variety of things produced
in that order. That's capitalism.
Quote from: Rincewind1;915678There's nothing uncapitalistic about making your customers take the investment risk. It's just really clever, ruthless free market practice.
No one is making anyone do anything.
Quote from: yosemitemike;915775No one is making anyone do anything.
Very true. We are free to buy in or not buy in at what ever level we can afford. I very much doubt that MCG will send a representative aaround to your house to make you pledge the Kickstarter or play the game.
I actually want to like IS. However I have some sharp criticsm of the way it seem sto be presented. A presentation which puts me off. Just because we are not all Monte Cook fanboys basking in the privilage of the Invisible Sun does not mean we hate him and wish him ill. We just don't like this KS.
The $200 price point seems too high - it's not so much the expense, because I've spent way more than that on multiple lines. But for a single box set, I think that price requires cramming stuff in just to make it super deluxe. I can see a box set for $100-$120, though - that's about right for several slim books, aids, dice and one or two spiffy doodahs.
Does no one get it!!! Your not just paying $200 for a boxed set! Your paying $200 for a boxed set which by means of levitation and magic opens and presents its gaming contents, upon your table!
As others mentioned, I would liked to have seen more in the Kickstarter presentation before deciding to back it. $200 is a bit steep for me, but I may have, if more information about the mechanics was provided.
Edit: On a side note good for him.
I wouldn't mind the price tag if the game was worth it, but stuff like "This game has *OFFICIAL SECRETS* that you can only get by sending Monte lots and lots of money" killed the deal right then and there for me.
The moment I buy an RPG the campaign becomes mine, which means it's more than likely going to diverge from its initial state much less whatever other crap the original author intended as follow-ups. If there's important info I need it before the start so I can properly incorporate it.
It's mildly interesting as a collector, though, but I'll pass anyway. The September's collector's money is going to be allocated to Petersen's "The Gods War" and boy is that going to be expensive.
Quote from: Omega;915665Wondered that too. But Tweet for some reason allways rubbed me the wrong way. I think some of his magazine articles were good. But his RPG writing to me at least allways comes off... not right. Unlike Cook though he doesnt seem to be cashing in on his name (or at least as much). And more riding on the merits of his work. (what little I've seen) Which I respect.
For me it's just the opposite. Most of the system-writing Cook has done over the years I found pretty awful (only CoC D20 as an exception) whereas most things Tweet did have been great, even things that had no right being great (like Over the Edge, Everway, or the tiny Omega World D20 game).
Quote from: DavetheLost;915685The cost is not that much more than the slipcase for Call of Cthulhu 7e, $129.99. D&D 5e has an MSRP of $149.85 for the three core books, plus $14.95 for the GM screen..
5e is still going on WOTCs Amazon store for 80$ for the core books. The GM screen is made by someone else. You can though count the Adventurers Guide to FR. Though its got very little rules in it. Another 28$.