Do you see any potential for narrative-type mechanics in WFRP? Cubicle 7 has said they're basing WFRP 4e on the 1e/2e rulesets i.e. a traditional percentile system. Recently the release date was moved back 6 months to implement new rules ideas, but no system details have been mentioned yet. With D&D5e having added peripheral roleplay mechanics, and The One Ring having "semi-narrative" travel rules, I wonder if something similar might make its way into WFRP 4e? What kinds of "storygamey" rules might be appropriate for grim and gritty fantasy?
Last year, several fan-writers were discussing possibilities for a "storygame-themed" issue of a WFRP fanzine, but we didn't progress much beyond the initial stages before C7 announced their WFRP licence. Ideas ranged from collaborative setting creation sub-systems, to systems for player-introduced NPCs or locations. It seems like narrative mechanics should be fairly easy to bolt onto a traditional system optionally and case-by-case. I believe some groups were even using WFRP 3e's symbol dice as "story-dice" for which the players were allowed to narrate the various symbol outcomes themselves.
Since this seems to be about story game play, I am putting this in the Other Games forum.
Fair enough, I don't expect 4e will be a storygame in the Forge sense of the term, but it seems many trad RPGs have storygame elements these days.
I don't find TOR very storygamey, the journey and downtime rules don't seem that radical to me.
Quote from: Voros;1014587I don't find TOR very storygamey, the journey and downtime rules don't seem that radical to me.
Agreed, I've only played TOR twice, but in my experience it's a traditional RPG. The journey rules put some task narration in the players' hands, and Hope is just a roleplay mechanic like Inspiration in D&D5e. I haven't tried the downtime rules.
Meanwhile, WFRP seems somewhat proto-storygamey at its roots IMO. The career system requires players to collaborate on character backgrounds & narratives, XP is awarded for story objectives, and Fate Points often trigger some kind of deus ex machina. After 30 years of playing WFRP I can see potential benefits for collaborative background-generation mechanics to explain e.g. why a Noble is adventuring with a Rat Catcher. Downtime mechanics would also be useful, but possibly a can of worms considering the variety of possible occupations. WFRP PCs tend to wander off on solo adventures during their downtime.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1014162Fair enough, I don't expect 4e will be a storygame in the Forge sense of the term, but it seems many trad RPGs have storygame elements these days.
The thread appears to be about narrative mechanics and 'storygamey rules' being used in non-story games, so that goes into the Other Games subforum. It isn't about 4E or 5E being other games topics (those normally go in the regular RPG forum). But since we are talking about story gaming traditional RPGs, it goes here.
What narrative mechanics are in D&D 5e?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1014787The thread appears to be about narrative mechanics and 'storygamey rules' being used in non-story games, so that goes into the Other Games subforum. It isn't about 4E or 5E being other games topics (those normally go in the regular RPG forum). But since we are talking about story gaming traditional RPGs, it goes here.
That's fine, I'm sure people who care about this topic will notice the thread eventually. :) We probably won't develop fan-systems for narrative WFRP until we see what 4e is doing first, and that's still months away.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1014796What narrative mechanics are in D&D 5e?
Inspiration would count IMO, because if the player writes background on their character sheet the GM is supposed to add it to the gameworld.
As has been pointed out before many 'storygame' mechanics appear in older 'trad' games like Toon, Ghostbusters, James Bond, etc. Hardly surprising as narrative games and storygames didn't come out of nowhere but are inspired by previous game designs.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1014803Inspiration would count IMO, because if the player writes background on their character sheet the GM is supposed to add it to the gameworld.
Yeah...that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Quote from: Ulairi;1015000Yeah...that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
How is it dumb? If the GM hasn't added setting elements that link to a players Ideals, Bonds and Flaws then they can't gain any Inspiration. Are you proposing that GMs write the players' Ideals, Bonds and Flaws for them?
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1015006How is it dumb? If the GM hasn't added setting elements that link to a players Ideals, Bonds and Flaws then they can't gain any Inspiration. Are you proposing that GMs write the players' Ideals, Bonds and Flaws for them?
S'ok Arnulfe, people here have a habit of denying or being plain blind to narrative mechanics or story game influence as such, especially in otherwise traditional games (and will deny using traditional to mean 'without OOC narrative mechanics' as well). It's a peculiarity that other sites where such things are discussed honestly don't share. :D
Frankly, I think a good old-fashioned, non-OSR RPG without any narrative mechanics or extreme tactical combat is just what the doctor ordered. The field is light these days, especially with big name or budget titles.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1015037S'ok Arnulfe, people here have a habit of denying or being plain blind to narrative mechanics or story game influence as such, especially in otherwise traditional games (and will deny using traditional to mean 'without OOC narrative mechanics' as well). It's a peculiarity that other sites where such things are discussed honestly don't share. :D
Is that why there's a mod policy of quarantining narrative RPG threads? I haven't been around the forums much recently so I might've missed some related flamewars. I thought the anti-Swine movement was old news.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1015037Frankly, I think a good old-fashioned, non-OSR RPG without any narrative mechanics or extreme tactical combat is just what the doctor ordered. The field is light these days, especially with big name or budget titles.
How do you handle diverse party compositions in WFRP? In some of my games the players have embraced the narrative challenge - in others they've needed help. WFRP 3e used Party Cards but I believe that's the only solution that's ever been offered.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1015055Is that why there's a mod policy of quarantining narrative RPG threads? I haven't been around the forums much recently so I might've missed some related flamewars. I thought the anti-Swine movement was old news.
It has to be pretty heavy on the narrative to get moved these days. But since this thread is specifically about that, it makes sense.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1015055How do you handle diverse party compositions in WFRP? In some of my games the players have embraced the narrative challenge - in others they've needed help. WFRP 3e used Party Cards but I believe that's the only solution that's ever been offered.
That's a good question, will be back later when I have more time.
I wouldn't bet on it having narrative rules, no. By the sparse interviews I've seen from the authors, they want to go back to roots of 1st/2nd editions and d100.
But I do think there is a big chance they come up with a simplified/streamlined take on those rules, yes. This seems a tendency these days.
Quote from: Itachi;1015170I wouldn't bet on it having narrative rules, no. By the sparse interviews I've seen from the authors, they want to go back to roots of 1st/2nd editions and d100.
But I do think there is a big chance they come up with a simplified/streamlined take on those rules, yes. This seems a tendency these days.
Yes, as mentioned in the OP it's been confirmed that the system will be traditional d100. However, the launch was also delayed 6 months for additional new mechanics.
Do you use the XP awards listed in the modules for completing pre-defined plot objectives? That system seems a little outdated now IMO, or at least the definition of "doing the right thing" ought to be more flexible for XP purposes.
When I think narrative games, I am thinking RPGs where the GM's input is secondary to the player's input. AKA, the player's create and the GM responds.
If there is even a GM.
Quote from: Voros;1014954As has been pointed out before many 'storygame' mechanics appear in older 'trad' games like Toon, Ghostbusters, James Bond, etc. Hardly surprising as narrative games and storygames didn't come out of nowhere but are inspired by previous game designs.
Agreed.
There are plenty of OOC-ish mechanics in various pre-2000 RPGs.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1015186When I think narrative games, I am thinking RPGs where the GM's input is secondary to the player's input. AKA, the player's create and the GM responds.
For purposes of this thread, you can redefine narrative mechanics as those which give players input into the story, or assist with the story-creation process (for players or GMs).
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1015055Is that why there's a mod policy of quarantining narrative RPG threads? I haven't been around the forums much recently so I might've missed some related flamewars. I thought the anti-Swine movement was old news.
.
I honestly don't have an axe to grind on this subject, but moving story game discussions to the Other Games subforum has been the policy for as long as I can remember. Not sure when it started. If you disagree with it, I suggest saying so in the help desk or contacting Pundit directly if you think this case went too far. But this looks pretty text book to me.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1015205I honestly don't have an axe to grind on this subject, but moving story game discussions to the Other Games subforum has been the policy for as long as I can remember. Not sure when it started. If you disagree with it, I suggest saying so in the help desk or contacting Pundit directly if you think this case went too far. But this looks pretty text book to me.
That's fine; I wouldn't classify this as a storygame thread personally, but if the site policy is all-or-nothing then so be it. I'm more interested in good ideas from WFRPers than quibbling over semantics.
The biggest question for WFRP 4e I think is what will be their approach to magic?
Quote from: Voros;1015227The biggest question for WFRP 4e I think is what will be their approach to magic?
One of the Liber Fanatica writers was working on a system that allowed players to customize their spell effects, as per Ars Magica. Something like that might be more RPG-friendly than simply porting over battlefield spells from WFB.
Sounds cool. I think most prefer 2e magic correct? At least the old school WFRP players and GMs. I'd like something a little less D&D myself, I've read the 1e rule set but not 2e yet.
Quote from: Voros;1014954As has been pointed out before many 'storygame' mechanics appear in older 'trad' games like Toon, Ghostbusters, James Bond, etc. Hardly surprising as narrative games and storygames didn't come out of nowhere but are inspired by previous game designs.
Sometimes the procedures used in trad RPGs are essentially narrative systems too. Players don't always recognise narrative procedures as "mechanics" per se, because they emerged from gameplay experience rather than a rulebook.
For example, probably half of the
Call of Cthulhu players that I've gamed with generate a "backup PC" to run if/when their character dies or goes mad. Backup PCs are treated as "minor NPCs with shared player/GM agency" until replacement. This ensures they're already integrated with the story, and don't just materialize out of nowhere when the original PC dies. From my perspective, this is a narrative mechanic.
When I originally started playing
Burning Wheel, I realized that most of the Artha mechanics were just codifications of roleplay processes that were already natural to me in trad gaming. I recall several years ago in an RPGnet thread, the designer was confused that as a player I wasn't approaching BW differently from a trad RPG. Ironically, the parts of BW that
didn't feel intuitive to me were task-res systems like positioning and scripted combat.
Quote from: Voros;1015420Sounds cool. I think most prefer 2e magic correct? At least the old school WFRP players and GMs. I'd like something a little less D&D myself, I've read the 1e rule set but not 2e yet.
My impression is that people prefer the danger associated with 2e magic, but many prefer the 1e wizard classes over the College system. In my opinion, the College system could be retained while making the actual wizard classes cooler. The spells in all editions are "meh" because they were just lifted from the current WFB edition. WFRP 3e had some good ideas about channelling to build up a temporary "power reserve" that's used like 1e Magic Points.
Quote from: Voros;1015227The biggest question for WFRP 4e I think is what will be their approach to magic?
Color Magic 4tehwin!! :D
I am probably in the minority, but I really enjoyed color magic in Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1015527I am probably in the minority, but I really enjoyed color magic in Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
I very much doubt that you are in the minority.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;1014803Inspiration would count IMO, because if the player writes background on their character sheet the GM is supposed to add it to the gameworld.
um... Thats not how inspiration or backgrounds work in 5e D&D.
Quote from: Omega;1016075um... Thats not how inspiration or backgrounds work in 5e D&D.
How does your GM use them?