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Author Topic: Wasteland 3 *sigh*  (Read 672 times)

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2020, 09:32:20 AM »
Ah, the Sophie's Choice dilemma! Very thespy. Just what we look forward to in an adventure.
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Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2020, 07:49:26 PM »
TheSheeep - if this game is not really written extremely antagonistically to conservatives, why the Gipper town where they mock Reagan, capitalism, Christianity incessantly and trot out the old right wing = Fascists canard? And of course, the robot faction has a communist utopia. It must all be in my head. I'm merely imagining the antagonism.  ::)


Back to game terms unrelated to the prejudices of the writers. if you go against the "Gipper" faction, why isn't there an option to talk down the peons after you kill their leader and dismantle their "god"? Nope, you are forced to kill every single one of them or you can't finish the quest. Stupid, sloppy. The RPG aspects are extremely railroaded here.

TheSHEEEP

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2020, 01:00:32 AM »
TheSheeep - if this game is not really written extremely antagonistically to conservatives, why the Gipper town where they mock Reagan, capitalism, Christianity incessantly and trot out the old right wing = Fascists canard? And of course, the robot faction has a communist utopia. It must all be in my head. I'm merely imagining the antagonism.  ::) 

Reagan, capitalism and Christianity are all perfectly mockable (I'd say all things are perfectly mockable). I don't see the problem here, as long as it isn't the only thing they do in the game.
Which they don't, as "robot communist utopia" (I wouldn't really call that a utopia, but whatever) is a mock in itself.


So, yeah, it really is all in your head. You're choosing to interpret what you see in the fashion that is most offensive to you.
They must have done that to shove it to those conservatives, right?! Those darn liberals!!!! *foaming* ::)
My suggestion would be to not do that, but you do you I guess.


[/size]
Back to game terms unrelated to the prejudices of the writers. if you go against the "Gipper" faction, why isn't there an option to talk down the peons after you kill their leader and dismantle their "god"? Nope, you are forced to kill every single one of them or you can't finish the quest. Stupid, sloppy. The RPG aspects are extremely railroaded here.
Yeah, that sucked. And I found there are a few cases like that. Very unfortunate and definitely shaves some % off the rating IMO.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2020, 11:08:45 AM »
Reagan, capitalism and Christianity are all perfectly mockable (I'd say all things are perfectly mockable). I don't see the problem here, as long as it isn't the only thing they do in the game.
Well, I'm only 10th level but so far that's the only thing they are doing in the game. The point for me isn't so much who they are mocking but, rather, how current year (or, really, 2018) this game feels. You've got all cops are bad, all refugees are good, rich people don't like refugees because they don't want to share, and a charismatic leader that loves the flag and America so he's obviously evil. Heck the guys name is literally "The Patriarch". All you need is a mission about trans rights and the game would have 100% of all 2018 clich├ęs.


As I said before, that wouldn't be so bad if the actual gameplay was decent or the writing was good.

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2020, 11:35:31 AM »
Reagan, capitalism and Christianity are all perfectly mockable (I'd say all things are perfectly mockable). I don't see the problem here, as long as it isn't the only thing they do in the game.
Which they don't, as "robot communist utopia" (I wouldn't really call that a utopia, but whatever) is a mock in itself.

They don't do it particularly well. Reagan was not a Fascist. They love to pretend he was an idiot when he was the best President of the last 60+ years. Capitalism is the worst of all economic systems except every other one which has been tried. And the same people that mock traditional religion often replace it with the religions of secular humanism, socialism, and big government progression. It's also tedious to bear the constant hypocrisy of people who bash capitalism but live making money off capitalism.

And how is the robot utopia a mock? The robots are more "humane" than the humans. No wonder everyone sides with them when everyone else is completely psychotic.


My suggestion would be to not do that, but you do you I guess.
You are free to ignore the antagonism to traditional values that is everywhere in our culture. This game has it way more than the level that was in Wasteland 1 or 2. When idiots are literally burning, looting, murdering daily to tear down capitalism, traditionalism, and the West, I really don't need it in my video games. I funded it for $39 back in 2016 before TDS really took off. Now, I certainly wouldn't pay $60 for it today.



TheSHEEEP

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2020, 11:55:42 AM »
Reagan, capitalism and Christianity are all perfectly mockable (I'd say all things are perfectly mockable). I don't see the problem here, as long as it isn't the only thing they do in the game.
and a charismatic leader that loves the flag and America so he's obviously evil. Heck the guys name is literally "The Patriarch".
I don't want to spoil anything, but IMO by the end of the game you get a much clearer picture of Buchanan and that is definitely none of evil (IMO more one of someone who had some lapses in judgement, did some bad things to do good).
Besides, you can join the guy and get "his" ending - they wouldn't have done that if his faction was considered pure evil. And - no plot spoilers - his ending isn't evil at all (IMO it is much more sensible than the alternatives).


They do have "pure evil" factions and those you (afaik) cannot join.


You are really interpreting too much into it here.
Though I agree they do paint The Patriarch as fairly vile early on - which might be on purpose to later find out he's not that bad, hard to tell.
Also, choosing that faction name was practically begging people to jump to the same conclusions you did, not very clever on their (the dev's) part.


They don't do it particularly well. Reagan was not a Fascist. They love to pretend he was an idiot when he was the best President of the last 60+ years. Capitalism is the worst of all economic systems except every other one which has been tried. And the same people that mock traditional religion often replace it with the religions of secular humanism, socialism, and big government progression. It's also tedious to bear the constant hypocrisy of people who bash capitalism but live making money off capitalism.
That tangent was so big, I had to call NASA to get you back to Earth...
Sorry, man, but you're coming off as a bit too much of a broken record to me to continue getting deeper into this with you.

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2020, 12:05:57 PM »

That tangent was so big, I had to call NASA to get you back to Earth...
Sorry, man, but you're coming off as a bit too much of a broken record to me to continue getting deeper into this with you.
Guess you didn't read any of the flavor text of the gipper faction NPC's or the story books you find or anything huh?


My argument is simply this: I don't want politics in my video games. If you have to put politics in the game, try to be balanced and poke both sides. (not likely to happen and didn't happen here)


In other gameplay silliness, what the heck is a medical dart? And how do the enemies throw them through walls?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 11:48:12 PM by Hawkwing7423 »

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2020, 09:45:50 AM »
I'm almost done with the game and in the end did not care for it very much.

* Basically everyone in the game is very evil, there is no subtlety. Do you help this monster or that monster or just kill 'em all?
* The combat system is atrocious and there isn't a real stealth system. The way they do initiative is either all enemies move first or all friendlies move first. At the end of the game, that means you win if you move first and lose if they move first.
* Skill checks are pass/fail, rather than based on chance and skill. Maybe they wanted to limit save scumming because their load times are so awful.

I won't be funding any future Kickstarters like this again.

Hoping for the best from Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous next year, because this experience was intensely disappointing.

TheSHEEEP

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2020, 01:53:37 PM »
There isn't a real stealth system.
True, but I don't see why the game would need one. Not every game needs to have a full blown stealth system - in fact it is better to have no stealth at all than crappy stealth (and let's be honest, most stealth systems suck). IIRC, WL2 didn't have anything. And WL3 at least allows you to avoid the enemies for a bit to disable some turrets or put yourself into a better position.
If they had put in a real stat-based stealth system, you'd basically be forced to put both Nerd Stuff and Mechanics on your stealth character, making them mostly useless for everything else.

The way they do initiative is either all enemies move first or all friendlies move first. At the end of the game, that means you win if you move first and lose if they move first.
Unfortunately true.
These faction-turns are a balance breaker in every game that has them. Really idiotic.
No idea why game devs these days often don't go for the tried and true rolled initiative + bonus solution - always worked in the past and would work here.
There'd also be simple ways to make even faction-turns work by making the first round less important.
It's a mystery...

* Skill checks are pass/fail, rather than based on chance and skill. Maybe they wanted to limit save scumming because their load times are so awful.
Skill checks should be pass/fail - everything else would just be too easily abused and broken. No such thing as a working chance-based skill check that doesn't end with the player always winning the check (if there is a reload) if the results are actually important to the player. The cost of a reload is practically zero (well, except for this game...).
You can either do something like pick a lock (even if it might take a few tries, but that's outside of the scope of most game's simulations) or you can't, there is no in-between.

And yes, the loading times are truly atrocious.
Typical Unity paired with devs who don't know how to implement asset loading / caching in their games.
"Just load every scene with all assets in it from scratch all the time! What could possibly go wrong?!" ugh...

I won't be funding any future Kickstarters like this again.
I wouldn't, either.
Backing KS of companies that should really have the funds themselves just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
KS should be reserved for indies.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 01:55:49 PM by TheSHEEEP »

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2020, 02:40:30 PM »
True, but I don't see why the game would need one. Not every game needs to have a full blown stealth system - in fact it is better to have no stealth at all than crappy stealth (and let's be honest, most stealth systems suck). IIRC, WL2 didn't have anything. And WL3 at least allows you to avoid the enemies for a bit to disable some turrets or put yourself into a better position.
If they had put in a real stat-based stealth system, you'd basically be forced to put both Nerd Stuff and Mechanics on your stealth character, making them mostly useless for everything else.
In one of the last fights they set up turrets that could be disabled. But you could never reach those until you were already in combat. Made no sense to me.

For my post-apocalyptic RPG fix, I just have to wait till the Trudograd expansion is finished for Atom RPG. I enjoyed the first part quite a bit.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2020, 02:42:43 PM »
Skill checks should be pass/fail - everything else would just be too easily abused and broken.
Skill checks in this game are just level gating. If you are walking around and find a door that needs Lockpicking 7, you just go to your Lockpicking character and bump their skill up to 7 so you can pass. Same if you find a weapon that needs a specific skill level. Since you have 6 character, it's trivially easy to divide all the skills amongst those 6 character so that you've got one character maxing out each skill. So far, I haven't found any reason to switch characters out although I only have 1 NPC (the Marshal) that's not in my team.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2020, 02:56:36 PM »
In one of the last fights they set up turrets that could be disabled. But you could never reach those until you were already in combat. Made no sense to me.
I think I've only been able to disable a turret before combat one time. Usually combat's are set up such that there is a map funnel, such as a door or bridge, preventing you from doing any sort of flanking attack or sneaking behind anyone. I've fought most of my battles in the hallway outside the doors as rushing into a room is suicide. You just wait back and pick them off one at a time as they charge towards you.

This is especially useful when you have the truck. Start with all your guys hiding behind the truck and trigger the combat at max range with your sniper. Then, as the enemy rushes up to attack you, because the range on their weapons is so ridiculously short, just run them over with the truck. Then back the truck up and wait for the next guy to charge.

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2020, 06:13:10 PM »
This is especially useful when you have the truck. Start with all your guys hiding behind the truck and trigger the combat at max range with your sniper. Then, as the enemy rushes up to attack you, because the range on their weapons is so ridiculously short, just run them over with the truck. Then back the truck up and wait for the next guy to charge.
Totally agree, except there is one fight where you can't control the ground at all nor use the truck. There are a few skill ways to make life much easier in that fight.

TheSHEEEP

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Re: Wasteland 3 *sigh*
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2020, 05:50:57 AM »
Skill checks should be pass/fail - everything else would just be too easily abused and broken.
Skill checks in this game are just level gating. If you are walking around and find a door that needs Lockpicking 7, you just go to your Lockpicking character and bump their skill up to 7 so you can pass. Same if you find a weapon that needs a specific skill level. Since you have 6 character, it's trivially easy to divide all the skills amongst those 6 character so that you've got one character maxing out each skill. So far, I haven't found any reason to switch characters out although I only have 1 NPC (the Marshal) that's not in my team.
Yes, it's level gating. And level gating (at least for these things) is a good thing - nothing wrong with it.
If you find a door that needs a skill level you don't have (yet), you can return to it later once you have the skill (if you can return, that is). Makes sense - your character improved so now they can do it. Btw. this also highlights the game's lack of a permanent journal for the player or custom map markers - I'm pretty sure I forgot about many checks I couldn't do the first time around by the time I could have gone back to do them.
Also, when it comes to lockpicking doors, you can simply smash the door in most cases (making the thing a bit moot to begin with, the noise doesn't even alert anyone).

And yes, you are absolutely right about being able to max out everything in a team - one of the very deserved criticisms of the game.
They should have kept the team size at 4 or 5 (and of course adjusted encounters for that).

However, in my first run, I didn't know about that and spread my skills way too broadly among characters (4-5 skills per char instead of 3.5) so I ended up not being able to do a whole lot the first few levels until I started focusing more.

Btw... the patch to significantly reduce loading times just came out - VERY noticeable, at least for me. When loading times used to be ~40 seconds every time, now it seems more like 10-15 seconds.
Good on them! I just wish the game had been released in that state :/
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 05:53:32 AM by TheSHEEEP »