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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Other Games => Topic started by: Ratman_tf on May 29, 2020, 03:27:29 PM

Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 29, 2020, 03:27:29 PM


I sat out 8th, but I've pulled the trigger on getting into 9th when it comes out. I've decided on the Sisters of Battle for my new army.
I've got the 8th edition Codex en route, and just ordered my first Cannones HQ. I'm planning to assemble and paint one box worth of unit(s) per week.

Once upon a time, I would have collected an army and have it collecting dust in between maybe one or two games a year, but I'll be looking into the local game stores and clubs to find a regular group.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on May 29, 2020, 03:44:35 PM
I don't get heartburn over new editions, either. I get some of the distress - bought a rulebook <= 3 years ago, etc. But if I'm not ready to buy a new rulebook yet, I'll wait, or use a fellow player's copy.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on May 31, 2020, 07:39:43 PM
GW's corporate wimps couldn't turn on the YouTube comments. Lame.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on May 31, 2020, 07:47:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131841
GW's corporate wimps couldn't turn on the YouTube comments. Lame.

Why give a platform to those who have nothing constructive to say? They'll say it anyway, elsewhere.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on May 31, 2020, 08:42:15 PM
Because it reeks of corporate cowardice. Even though the Like/Dislike ratio is hugely supportive for them, they are too gutless to risk any criticism because they have CHOSEN to not trust the huge number of Likes would translate into support. AKA, they don't trust their fans to support them. That's pathetic.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on May 31, 2020, 09:18:26 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131847
Because it reeks of corporate cowardice. Even though the Like/Dislike ratio is hugely supportive for them, they are too gutless to risk any criticism because they have CHOSEN to not trust the huge number of Likes would translate into support. AKA, they don't trust their fans to support them. That's pathetic.

Or they know, from experience, that the loudest voices will be those who will never be satisfied, who will vent their venom everywhere, and who will drown out any supporting voices. Your typical Internet Hate Mob, in other words.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: David Johansen on June 01, 2020, 12:33:36 AM
It's like they know me or something :o
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on June 01, 2020, 04:38:36 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1131850
Or they know, from experience, that the loudest voices will be those who will never be satisfied, who will vent their venom everywhere, and who will drown out any supporting voices. Your typical Internet Hate Mob, in other words.

But they went full pander bear to the wahmens! Now they're missing out on those sweet, sweet kudos from a demographic who will never touch their game!

From a 40k fan perspective, I enjoyed the video but it was weird how unbalanced it was as a promo. AKA, 40k is (in theory) a balanced wargame where any faction could win any battle. I get why they showed the Imperium triumphant (as Spess Marines are beloved), but was a bit of nutpunch in regards to playing other armies.  I play Tyranids and Space Marines (used to play Orks) so I've seen the fan concerns about the flavor biases becoming rule biases at the table.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2020, 08:14:48 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131869
But they went full pander bear to the wahmens! Now they're missing out on those sweet, sweet kudos from a demographic who will never touch their game!

From a 40k fan perspective, I enjoyed the video but it was weird how unbalanced it was as a promo. AKA, 40k is (in theory) a balanced wargame where any faction could win any battle. I get why they showed the Imperium triumphant (as Spess Marines are beloved), but was a bit of nutpunch in regards to playing other armies.  I play Tyranids and Space Marines (used to play Orks) so I've seen the fan concerns about the flavor biases becoming rule biases at the table.

How long have you been playing? Because the Sisters of Battle have been the redheaded stepchild since, like, forever. They've been jobbing for most of the factions for a while. Heck, speaking as a die-hard Necron player I was happy to see the Sisters get some love for a change.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 01, 2020, 09:28:10 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1131869
But they went full pander bear to the wahmens! Now they're missing out on those sweet, sweet kudos from a demographic who will never touch their game!

From a 40k fan perspective, I enjoyed the video but it was weird how unbalanced it was as a promo. AKA, 40k is (in theory) a balanced wargame where any faction could win any battle. I get why they showed the Imperium triumphant (as Spess Marines are beloved), but was a bit of nutpunch in regards to playing other armies.  I play Tyranids and Space Marines (used to play Orks) so I've seen the fan concerns about the flavor biases becoming rule biases at the table.

I have my own disputes with their recent handling of the 40K property. "Pandering to a different demographic" is definitely on that list. But I'd rather see the Sisters of Battle get spotlight than see female Space Marines introduced. Sometimes, you have to live with an apparent lesser evil. And isn't that what the setting is all about in the first place? :cool:
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: strcondex18cha3 on June 01, 2020, 03:24:09 PM
But do they pander to those-who-almost-never-pay-nor-play?
40k seemed to be the sole big franchise to remain steadfast. Did this change?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 01, 2020, 04:09:42 PM
Quote from: strcondex18cha3;1131898
But do they pander to those-who-almost-never-pay-nor-play?
40k seemed to be the sole big franchise to remain steadfast. Did this change?

They are making some moves in that direction. Just today they announced a Warhammer Merchandise site. And they are moving toward a broader range of tone in their content, ranging from the old grimdark to kid-friendly stories.

The lure of Lifestyle Brand is harder and harder to resist.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 01, 2020, 11:24:22 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1131902
The lure of Lifestyle Brand is harder and harder to resist.

To be fair thats because consumers are becoming increasingly brand loyal and stupid.

Why should corporations ever respect their consumers when you can do everything short of directly telling them to not purchase their products and it will sell like hot-cakes?
Im very bothered by how people WANT to get attached to a corporate IP even after its owners have demonstrated a contempt for them.

There is this sick consumeristics dependancy shown by consumers to luxury consumable brands overall. Its like people are looking for reasons to like stuff.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 02, 2020, 08:32:21 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1131963
To be fair thats because consumers are becoming increasingly brand loyal and stupid.

Why should corporations ever respect their consumers when you can do everything short of directly telling them to not purchase their products and it will sell like hot-cakes?
Im very bothered by how people WANT to get attached to a corporate IP even after its owners have demonstrated a contempt for them.

There is this sick consumeristics dependancy shown by consumers to luxury consumable brands overall. Its like people are looking for reasons to like stuff.

Yes.

We have no other identity that we are allowed to be proud of, so we substitute brand loyalty. Products, athletic teams, fictional properties and factions therein, etc. And [BRAND] makes big money as a result.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 02, 2020, 08:41:08 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1131902
They are making some moves in that direction. Just today they announced a Warhammer Merchandise site. And they are moving toward a broader range of tone in their content, ranging from the old grimdark to kid-friendly stories.

The lure of Lifestyle Brand is harder and harder to resist.

True, but the kid-friendly stuff got mocked to hell and back. If it sold I'd be surprised as hell.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 02, 2020, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1132071
True, but the kid-friendly stuff got mocked to hell and back. If it sold I'd be surprised as hell.

They are trying, and they'll probably keep trying. Because of the lure of [BRAND] and the benefits to stock price.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 08:54:08 PM
They would release it after I amass a bunch of 8th edition minis and books.   But to be  honest, I am not mad or sad.  I think the trailer was well done, and the sisters have long been neglected as a faction from what I read and for the past 10 years I have followed GW as a company.  I think bringing the sisters minis and gear was a MUCH better call than female space marines.  GW has seemed smarter the past 3 years or so, and I think if the sisters sell, they will keep rolling them out.  If they are a bust, I do not think they will take a financial hit to pander.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 09, 2020, 09:48:26 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133347
I think bringing the sisters minis and gear was a MUCH better call than female space marines.

Completely agree. I'd never have anything to do with female Space Marines. I am absolutely interested in adding Sisters of Battle to my collection.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Arkansan on June 10, 2020, 11:51:44 AM
9th will probably be a miss for me. I'm having more fun doing the oldhammer bit playing Rogue Trader with the current mini's, staying on the edition treadmill just isn't appealing to me.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on June 10, 2020, 12:13:31 PM
Quote from: Arkansan;1133419
9th will probably be a miss for me. I'm having more fun doing the oldhammer bit playing Rogue Trader with the current mini's, staying on the edition treadmill just isn't appealing to me.

I'd kill (figuratively) to play 40K 1e. Sounds like much fun!
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Arkansan on June 10, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
I've only played one game so far, but it's actually been a pretty easy system to run. Other than the vehicle rules (which are a clusterfuck) everything is pretty straight forward. If one were so inclined the rule book is easy to find in pdf format. I've also found that people are pretty willing to give it a shot if you're willing to teach them and point out that they can use their existing 40k minis with it just fine.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on June 11, 2020, 04:06:02 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1133420
I'd kill (figuratively) to play 40K 1e. Sounds like much fun!

Totally worth it! We played the hell out of Rogue Trader when it came out. I've been wanting to play the pre-40k proto games that were published before Rogue Trader, but haven't had a chance.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Arkansan on June 11, 2020, 06:06:22 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1133560
Totally worth it! We played the hell out of Rogue Trader when it came out. I've been wanting to play the pre-40k proto games that were published before Rogue Trader, but haven't had a chance.

You can pick up a new copy of Laserburn and most of the supplements for relatively cheap. Setting wise it's the clear predecessor with a grimdark pseudo-feudal empire ruled by a figure head emperor and High Lords of Terra, inquisitors enforce imperial doctrine, rogue traders ply the fringes and vague alien threats loom. It was written by Bryan Ansell, and the weapon list was lifted straight in to 40k, though mechanically it's a percentile system. Interestingly Laserburn was polished up a bit and published in White Dwarf as Confrontation, a precursor to Necromunda. I've played a few games of it and it's pretty fun, though I wouldn't want to do more than maybe 10 figures a side.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shaddilac on July 05, 2020, 07:59:28 PM
I jumped back in at 6th after not playing since 2nd. Have seen so many changes so fast. Not sure about getting another version AGAIN. I will wait to see, not listen so much to the hate spewed online, nor the fanboying. I really enjoy 8th, I think it as a great system.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shaddilac on July 05, 2020, 08:02:47 PM
From what I have seen in MN is that Sisters sell. I have seen a lot of their armies at my LFGS.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2020, 03:47:47 AM
Quote from: Shaddilac;1138114
From what I have seen in MN is that Sisters sell. I have seen a lot of their armies at my LFGS.

The basic Battle Sisters Squad has been sold out. I've got one and another on order, but the main GW website has listed them as "Sold out" for quite a while.

Makes me kind of regret choosing sisters if everyone's going to be playing them. I Like to see all kinds of armies being played.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on July 06, 2020, 09:01:52 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138148
The basic Battle Sisters Squad has been sold out. I've got one and another on order, but the main GW website has listed them as "Sold out" for quite a while.

Makes me kind of regret choosing sisters if everyone's going to be playing them. I Like to see all kinds of armies being played.

They are the new hotness at the moment for a number of reasons. Give it time for the next new hotness to flare up.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Snark Knight on July 06, 2020, 04:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1132071
True, but the kid-friendly stuff got mocked to hell and back. If it sold I'd be surprised as hell.

My take is that the kid-friendly stuff is meant as a loss leader. They're not really marketing to kids, they're marketing to their parents, ideally ones who're already converted to the GW cult. If you've ever spent time in a GW store you'd probably seen those dads who really awkwardly try and get their kids interested in daddy's toy soldiers and this is probably part of that. What's the saying, first sniff of crack is free? I think they were literally giving out a free version of the books in stores. They get the kids interested, the parents buy them a box or several (especially if their parent is into it they'll be more than happy to) and chah-ching.

I probably won't be playing 9th though. It's shaping up to just be another 7th edition where they carry over all the bloat and imbalance from the previous edition and sell you the privilege as the best rulebook ever. People will fall away or play Age of Sigmar until 10th which will reset the clock and the paid shills will start telling us it's the best ever edition. I'm having too much fun playing other, far better written games to really care about GW at the moment although Titanicus is pretty fun (and relatively cheap) so I allow my inner GW consumer to pick up one or two things from that. Unfortunately the time I am allowed with these other games is always limited because of the cult like hold [The Brand] that is GW has over people and their willingness to always forgive them and buy their product come what may.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shaddilac on July 08, 2020, 10:06:46 PM
First, love you avi!
Second, my local shops have an occasional box, but have you ever worked with ministomp? Great sight, great guys, I have bought a number of things from him.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 03:27:00 PM
Quote from: Snark Knight;1138245
My take is that the kid-friendly stuff is meant as a loss leader. They're not really marketing to kids, they're marketing to their parents, ideally ones who're already converted to the GW cult. If you've ever spent time in a GW store you'd probably seen those dads who really awkwardly try and get their kids interested in daddy's toy soldiers and this is probably part of that. What's the saying, first sniff of crack is free? I think they were literally giving out a free version of the books in stores. They get the kids interested, the parents buy them a box or several (especially if their parent is into it they'll be more than happy to) and chah-ching.

I probably won't be playing 9th though. It's shaping up to just be another 7th edition where they carry over all the bloat and imbalance from the previous edition and sell you the privilege as the best rulebook ever. People will fall away or play Age of Sigmar until 10th which will reset the clock and the paid shills will start telling us it's the best ever edition. I'm having too much fun playing other, far better written games to really care about GW at the moment although Titanicus is pretty fun (and relatively cheap) so I allow my inner GW consumer to pick up one or two things from that. Unfortunately the time I am allowed with these other games is always limited because of the cult like hold [The Brand] that is GW has over people and their willingness to always forgive them and buy their product come what may.

  Care to share any of those better written games (At least table top war or skirmish)?  Our group plays some killteam and I and my son (I am the guy who sucked his son into playing with the toy soldiers) both have small armies, but I think you are right with the rules bloat.  I think we will stick to 8th, but I am entertaining other stuff as well.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: CRKrueger on July 11, 2020, 07:12:57 PM
It's been forever since the Sisters had new models.  They are literally the LAST army to get updated to plastics.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on July 11, 2020, 11:16:58 PM
What has GW done to the fluff to justify the Sisters fielding entire armies?

In the past, they were tasked with rooting out heresy inside the Imperium. It made them the big guns to back up the Inquisition or cultist insurgencies that threatened to overwhelm the Guard, because Power Armor + Bolters does the job. I believe it was Rogue Trader which had a great image of a Sister coming down upon cultists like the Shadow blazing away with two bolters.

They were a badass squad to field for Necromunda and they made perfect sense there. It was cool because you had 3-4 figures vs. 11-15 and the other player was questioning their odds. In the old fluff, it could have been a solo Sister wandering the Hive eliminating gangs.

I hope they didn't make them just Space Marines with Boobies, or worse Woke Marines.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: CRKrueger on July 11, 2020, 11:45:54 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1139229
What has GW done to the fluff to justify the Sisters fielding entire armies?

In the past, they were tasked with rooting out heresy inside the Imperium. It made them the big guns to back up the Inquisition or cultist insurgencies that threatened to overwhelm the Guard, because Power Armor + Bolters does the job. I believe it was Rogue Trader which had a great image of a Sister coming down upon cultists like the Shadow blazing away with two bolters.

They were a badass squad to field for Necromunda and they made perfect sense there. It was cool because you had 3-4 figures vs. 11-15 and the other player was questioning their odds. In the old fluff, it could have been a solo Sister wandering the Hive eliminating gangs.

I hope they didn't make them just Space Marines with Boobies, or worse Woke Marines.

No, they're still the same Sisters.  They've always been the soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy.  The Codex has plenty of Ministorum Units like Missionaries, Preachers, Crusaders, Assassins, etc.  Plus you can always add in Inquisition forces like you can for any Imperium Army.  The Sisters haven't gotten an upgrade to Astartes level, they're still human under the Power Armor.  I see no evidence of any SJW shenanigans except for the Repentia having more clothes, but that's got more to do with the parents of 12 year olds than anything else.  Remember, GW shops in England are practically Day Care Centers.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Snark Knight on July 17, 2020, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138688
Care to share any of those better written games (At least table top war or skirmish)?  Our group plays some killteam and I and my son (I am the guy who sucked his son into playing with the toy soldiers) both have small armies, but I think you are right with the rules bloat.  I think we will stick to 8th, but I am entertaining other stuff as well.

A Song of Ice & Fire by CMON - A surprisingly easy-to-learn, hard-to-master rank-and-file game with alternating activations. Surprisingly cheap to get started with as each faction's starter set (or the Stark vs Lannister boxset if you're playing those) includes the rulebook, dice, 2D terrain, rulers, etc that you'll need to play, as well as models that're almost enough to get you up to standard point matches (especially the Night's Watch box). It also introduces the Tactics Board which represents the "plots going on behind the scenes" where you claim one of several points on the board, which provide instantaneous effects in addition to what those characters do anyway. There's also a card game element with the Tactics Dead, though a few people dislike it for the more "Gotcha!" moments it provides, even though that's fitting to the narrative. The big downside is Asmodee's historically ability to keep things in stock. The models also come pre-assembled but whether that's a plus or minus is personal preference.

Kings of War - The replacement to Warhammer Fantasy for a lot of people. It's essentially the same game with much tighter balance, more streamlined rules without falling into the trap of casualisation. There's not much to really say about this as if you enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy, you'd enjoy this. Mantic's models aren't great but they are much cheaper than GW's offerings and are improving, as well as not restricting you to their stuff at events (though I guess that might only be relevant in the UK).

Star Wars: Legion - I've not played it myself but it seems to have replaced Warmahordes for the runner up to GW's crown, which considering the popularity of the IP (even these days) doesn't hurt. It suffers from the ASOI&F problem of Asmodee's atrocious unreliability of getting models to stores but it's more popular and although launches are a mess, you can usually pick up new stuff sooner rather than later. My understanding is that it's a fun, quite tight ruleset, but not without its issues (as with any wargame).
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on July 21, 2020, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: Snark Knight;1140367
A Song of Ice & Fire by CMON - A surprisingly easy-to-learn, hard-to-master rank-and-file game with alternating activations. Surprisingly cheap to get started with as each faction's starter set (or the Stark vs Lannister boxset if you're playing those) includes the rulebook, dice, 2D terrain, rulers, etc that you'll need to play, as well as models that're almost enough to get you up to standard point matches (especially the Night's Watch box). It also introduces the Tactics Board which represents the "plots going on behind the scenes" where you claim one of several points on the board, which provide instantaneous effects in addition to what those characters do anyway. There's also a card game element with the Tactics Dead, though a few people dislike it for the more "Gotcha!" moments it provides, even though that's fitting to the narrative. The big downside is Asmodee's historically ability to keep things in stock. The models also come pre-assembled but whether that's a plus or minus is personal preference.

Kings of War - The replacement to Warhammer Fantasy for a lot of people. It's essentially the same game with much tighter balance, more streamlined rules without falling into the trap of casualisation. There's not much to really say about this as if you enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy, you'd enjoy this. Mantic's models aren't great but they are much cheaper than GW's offerings and are improving, as well as not restricting you to their stuff at events (though I guess that might only be relevant in the UK).

Star Wars: Legion - I've not played it myself but it seems to have replaced Warmahordes for the runner up to GW's crown, which considering the popularity of the IP (even these days) doesn't hurt. It suffers from the ASOI&F problem of Asmodee's atrocious unreliability of getting models to stores but it's more popular and although launches are a mess, you can usually pick up new stuff sooner rather than later. My understanding is that it's a fun, quite tight ruleset, but not without its issues (as with any wargame).

 I like the one and the three, both games have nice models and I have read the rules are decent.  As for MANTIC, well I have tried to give them a couple of tries regarding their miniatures, but holy shit....they need to use models that plastic glue works on (maybe this has changed the past few years) because between Deadzone and a box of undead I picked up for RPG models, they made me want to break shit.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: CRKrueger on July 24, 2020, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1141045
I like the one and the three, both games have nice models and I have read the rules are decent.  As for MANTIC, well I have tried to give them a couple of tries regarding their miniatures, but holy shit....they need to use models that plastic glue works on (maybe this has changed the past few years) because between Deadzone and a box of undead I picked up for RPG models, they made me want to break shit.


I got a bunch of Marauders to use for Ork Boyz, my Testor's plastic glue worked just fine.  Maybe it was resin?  Plastic glue doesn't do anything to resin, you need cyanoacrylate -crazy glue.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on July 24, 2020, 12:39:47 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1141551
I got a bunch of Marauders to use for Ork Boyz, my Testor's plastic glue worked just fine.  Maybe it was resin?  Plastic glue doesn't do anything to resin, you need cyanoacrylate -crazy glue.

  Yeah they were resin.  And crazy glue it was.  Can not recommend.   It was a few years back though, no idea what they are making them out of now, if it is plastic I may give them another try.  But the first deadzone and the box of undead I had 6 years ago were pains in the ass.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Cigalazade on August 03, 2020, 07:02:14 PM
Some days I miss 40k, but the price per figure compared to historicals simply isn't worth it for me. Once in a while I'll pull out my Eldar and Space Marines to play a 5th edition game, that's about it. The rules bloat post 6th edition lost me as did the community obsession with metagaming and tournament play. Hope 9th gets people into wargaming in general, I guess.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Chivalric on August 04, 2020, 11:37:04 PM
Price per figure for historicals is amazing.

As for 40k, the treadmill is real.  If you got back in with the launch of 8th, and played space marines (the most popular army) you are looking at:

rulebook
index imperium 1
codex space marines
chapter approved 2017
chapter approved 2018
chapter approved 2019
vigilus book
one or more psychic awakening books
codex space marines 2
a chapter specific supplement/codex

And with 9th, another rulebook, a new book with points changes, and coming in October, another Codex: Space Marines to start the cycle all over.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Cigalazade on August 05, 2020, 12:59:58 AM
Quote from: Chivalric;1143352
Price per figure for historicals is amazing.

As for 40k, the treadmill is real.  If you got back in with the launch of 8th, and played space marines (the most popular army) you are looking at:

rulebook
index imperium 1
codex space marines
chapter approved 2017
chapter approved 2018
chapter approved 2019
vigilus book
one or more psychic awakening books
codex space marines 2
a chapter specific supplement/codex

And with 9th, another rulebook, a new book with points changes, and coming in October, another Codex: Space Marines to start the cycle all over.

Despite the price of all of this, I think that is precisely why the "GW hobby" appeals to so many because it gives a lot of structure. Historicals have a lot less structure because there are rules and figure manufacturers, and for the most party they stay separate. Warlord Games and FoW have similar business models to GW in terms of being a one stop shop for rules and figures..but even their prices are fairly reasonable. GW's diehard fans also have a habit of rationalizing the clear price gouging they engage in, something I've seen in few other fandoms. "You're paying for the IP, design, etc" seems like a good excuse if you have no other exposure to other wargames. Mantic/Kings of War has to create its own line of miniatures and their prices are relatively reasonable. If people want to spend the money on GW (their miniature lines are fantastic quality), by all means do it, but the constant defense of the company itself has always struck me as very odd.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 05, 2020, 08:43:53 AM
Quote from: Cigalazade;1143357
Despite the price of all of this, I think that is precisely why the "GW hobby" appeals to so many because it gives a lot of structure. Historicals have a lot less structure because there are rules and figure manufacturers, and for the most party they stay separate. Warlord Games and FoW have similar business models to GW in terms of being a one stop shop for rules and figures..but even their prices are fairly reasonable. GW's diehard fans also have a habit of rationalizing the clear price gouging they engage in, something I've seen in few other fandoms. "You're paying for the IP, design, etc" seems like a good excuse if you have no other exposure to other wargames. Mantic/Kings of War has to create its own line of miniatures and their prices are relatively reasonable. If people want to spend the money on GW (their miniature lines are fantastic quality), by all means do it, but the constant defense of the company itself has always struck me as very odd.

The setting and lore. That's why. The depth and richness of the 40K setting rivals or exceeds the old Star Wars EU, or any other media property.

Yes, 40K shamelessly rips off anything and everything else, staying just within IP laws in doing so. That has only added to the richness.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 06, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
What's seriously chapping my ass right now is the paucity of any kits at all. I've found myself looking at third-party knockoff sites because neither Forge World nor GW have any models beyond basic bitch ass stuff.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 06, 2020, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143533
What's seriously chapping my ass right now is the paucity of any kits at all. I've found myself looking at third-party knockoff sites because neither Forge World nor GW have any models beyond basic bitch ass stuff.

I've made the case elsewhere - the major downside to the richness of the setting is that there are too many factions for even adequate model support if any at all. Couple that with sales-driven product management and IP paranoia, and many factions languish with minimal support. Better to bite the bullet, take the fanrage hit, and write factions out of the setting. And I say that knowing that some of my favorite factions are among the top candidates for elimination.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2020, 04:28:41 PM
Is the Covid lockdowns partly responsible? I managed to get a box of Battle Sisters but the supply has finally dried up.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on August 06, 2020, 05:31:34 PM
Quote from: Cigalazade;1143104
Some days I miss 40k, but the price per figure compared to historicals simply isn't worth it for me. Once in a while I'll pull out my Eldar and Space Marines to play a 5th edition game, that's about it. The rules bloat post 6th edition lost me as did the community obsession with metagaming and tournament play. Hope 9th gets people into wargaming in general, I guess.


 Do you have any rule sets you prefer?  I have a box of Perry miniatures I got to get a mix of infantry for RPGs and the cost versus quality, sold me pretty well.  I almost got the Hail Caesar starter set numerous times walking by it at my FLGS.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: hedgehobbit on August 06, 2020, 11:27:03 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1143543
And I say that knowing that some of my favorite factions are among the top candidates for elimination.
They already wrote out my two favorite factions; Squats and Slann.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Cigalazade on August 07, 2020, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1143583
Do you have any rule sets you prefer?  I have a box of Perry miniatures I got to get a mix of infantry for RPGs and the cost versus quality, sold me pretty well.  I almost got the Hail Caesar starter set numerous times walking by it at my FLGS.



Warlord Games' rules are a bit generic for some but easy to get into, most of them (except for Bolt Action) are based on Warmaster by Rick Priestly so the easiest for people coming from GW. Other rules it depends what era you want to play. Lion Rampant and Art De La Guerre are popular for ancients to early 1400s. Pike and Shotte by Warlord is what I play for renaissance and works well enough, they just don't support it much. Baroque and Furioso are other rulesets for the period. Black Powder is fairly popular for doing 18th-19th century but there are other, more conflict specific rules out there although it's not something I do much of so I'm not sure what else to recommend for that. WWII has a lot of options but Bolt Action, Flames of War, and Battlegroup are all played a lot.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: oggsmash on August 07, 2020, 10:41:30 AM
Quote from: Cigalazade;1143663
Warlord Games' rules are a bit generic for some but easy to get into, most of them (except for Bolt Action) are based on Warmaster by Rick Priestly so the easiest for people coming from GW. Other rules it depends what era you want to play. Lion Rampant and Art De La Guerre are popular for ancients to early 1400s. Pike and Shotte by Warlord is what I play for renaissance and works well enough, they just don't support it much. Baroque and Furioso are other rulesets for the period. Black Powder is fairly popular for doing 18th-19th century but there are other, more conflict specific rules out there although it's not something I do much of so I'm not sure what else to recommend for that. WWII has a lot of options but Bolt Action, Flames of War, and Battlegroup are all played a lot.

  Yeah ancient I was thinking, I enjoy Roman history.  Do you have any experience with Konflict '47?   Seems to have a Dust Tactics vibe as to background (I like the Dust look, but the rules seemed meh, and since it went under once and I have no idea how the comeback under new company is going) and I am a sucker for the weird tossed in with the historical.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Cigalazade on August 11, 2020, 03:49:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1143667
Yeah ancient I was thinking, I enjoy Roman history.  Do you have any experience with Konflict '47?   Seems to have a Dust Tactics vibe as to background (I like the Dust look, but the rules seemed meh, and since it went under once and I have no idea how the comeback under new company is going) and I am a sucker for the weird tossed in with the historical.

I have not played K47 but some Bolt Action people like it. Not sure how much Warlord supports it, Bolt Action and Black Powder get most of the attention in that regard.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 11, 2020, 04:13:52 PM
There are a lot of fantasy and historical miniatures games out there. Apart from established franchises (e. g . Star Wars), is anybody mounting serious competition to 40K?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1144358
There are a lot of fantasy and historical miniatures games out there. Apart from established franchises (e. g . Star Wars), is anybody mounting serious competition to 40K?

Warmachine gave them a run for their money. (https://spikeybits.com/2016/03/warhammer-dethroned-top-5-miniature-games.html) The established franchise, Star Wars seems to be the big contender now.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/43733/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-spring-2019

Nozlur's is on there, but it's just a miniatures line to support D&D, not wargaming especially.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 11, 2020, 05:24:15 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144379
Warmachine gave them a run for their money. (https://spikeybits.com/2016/03/warhammer-dethroned-top-5-miniature-games.html) The established franchise, Star Wars seems to be the big contender now.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/43733/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-spring-2019

Nozlur's is on there, but it's just a miniatures line to support D&D, not wargaming especially.

I thought Warmachine was fantasy?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2020, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1144381
I thought Warmachine was fantasy?

Kinda sorta. More steampunk fantasy, but a lot of the Hordes (Sister game, same rules, totally compatible in official tournaments) factions go lighter on the steampunk and stronger into the fantasy.

Did you mean only fantasy games?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 11, 2020, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144417
Kinda sorta. More steampunk fantasy, but a lot of the Hordes (Sister game, same rules, totally compatible in official tournaments) factions go lighter on the steampunk and stronger into the fantasy.

Did you mean only fantasy games?

For Warmachine, I thought it was only fantasy. Your explanation clarifies that for me.

Is anyone challenging 40K in its own arena of future science fantasy?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 12, 2020, 03:26:06 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1144438
For Warmachine, I thought it was only fantasy. Your explanation clarifies that for me.

Is anyone challenging 40K in its own arena of future science fantasy?

I would say no.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 08:40:07 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144475
I would say no.

That's my impression as well.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 13, 2020, 03:03:35 PM
So looking at the latest round of changes posted on Warhammer Community...

Hm.

Heavy bolter damage jumps to 2.
Flamer/heavy flamer range increases to 12".
Meltas now deal +2 damage at half range.
Power swords gain +1 Strength modifier.
Space Marine chainswords now have AP -1.
Supercharged plasma weapons overheat only on an UNMODIFIED roll of 1.
Necron synaptic disintegrator (Deathmark rifle) becomes Heavy 1, Range 36", Strength 5, AP -2, Damage 1, ignores Look Out Sir! rule and deals an extra mortal wound on any unmodified to wound roll of 6.
Necron rod of covenant (Triarch Praetorian weapon) now deals 2 damage as opposed to 1.
Supposedly both Deathmarks and Praetorians will be getting a statline buff.
All Space Marine infantry (Primaris or standard) now have 2 wounds. First Company Terminators jump to 3 wounds.

I'm not sold on the Space Marine wound buff, but that being said, if weaponry is becoming deadlier it might not be an issue. The poor Praetorians definitely needed some love; since they can't access Dynasty traits, the only Triarch unit you ever saw was the Stalker.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on August 13, 2020, 03:18:45 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144738
So looking at the latest round of changes posted on Warhammer Community...

Hm.

Heavy bolter damage jumps to 2.
Flamer/heavy flamer range increases to 12".
Meltas now deal +2 damage at half range.
Power swords gain +1 Strength modifier.
Space Marine chainswords now have AP -1.
Supercharged plasma weapons overheat only on an UNMODIFIED roll of 1.
Necron synaptic disintegrator (Deathmark rifle) becomes Heavy 1, Range 36", Strength 5, AP -2, Damage 1, ignores Look Out Sir! rule and deals an extra mortal wound on any unmodified to wound roll of 6.
Necron rod of covenant (Triarch Praetorian weapon) now deals 2 damage as opposed to 1.
Supposedly both Deathmarks and Praetorians will be getting a statline buff.
All Space Marine infantry (Primaris or standard) now have 2 wounds. First Company Terminators jump to 3 wounds.

I'm not sold on the Space Marine wound buff, but that being said, if weaponry is becoming deadlier it might not be an issue. The poor Praetorians definitely needed some love; since they can't access Dynasty traits, the only Triarch unit you ever saw was the Stalker.

The SM wound buff differentiates them further from Guardsmen, at the very least. And the points increase means that SM will be a smaller, even hardier force than they used to be, especially relative to Guard and other horde factions.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 13, 2020, 04:08:44 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144738
So looking at the latest round of changes posted on Warhammer Community...

Hm.

Heavy bolter damage jumps to 2.
Flamer/heavy flamer range increases to 12".
Meltas now deal +2 damage at half range.
Power swords gain +1 Strength modifier.
Space Marine chainswords now have AP -1.
Supercharged plasma weapons overheat only on an UNMODIFIED roll of 1.
Necron synaptic disintegrator (Deathmark rifle) becomes Heavy 1, Range 36", Strength 5, AP -2, Damage 1, ignores Look Out Sir! rule and deals an extra mortal wound on any unmodified to wound roll of 6.
Necron rod of covenant (Triarch Praetorian weapon) now deals 2 damage as opposed to 1.
Supposedly both Deathmarks and Praetorians will be getting a statline buff.
All Space Marine infantry (Primaris or standard) now have 2 wounds. First Company Terminators jump to 3 wounds.

I'm not sold on the Space Marine wound buff, but that being said, if weaponry is becoming deadlier it might not be an issue. The poor Praetorians definitely needed some love; since they can't access Dynasty traits, the only Triarch unit you ever saw was the Stalker.

I'm not fond of the idea of squads having multiple wound models to track. And if it does lead to the meta leaning into mulitiple damage weapons, then they're just creating a treadmill where the "lesser" weapons get left behind.

And what's that they're saying about meltas getting more shots?
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 14, 2020, 08:08:39 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144745
I'm not fond of the idea of squads having multiple wound models to track. And if it does lead to the meta leaning into mulitiple damage weapons, then they're just creating a treadmill where the "lesser" weapons get left behind.

And what's that they're saying about meltas getting more shots?

Missed that. Multi-meltas go to Heavy 2.

Oddly, because of the way the wound allocation rules work, it's not that hard to track. Each attack is allocated to a model (and you resolve each attack one at a time, no assigning all the attacks to one poor schmuck). If the model already has wounds the attack MUST be allocated to that model.

So if you have ten Marines (2 wounds), and they suddenly come under fire from a Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with an enmitic exterminator (Heavy 3d3, Dmg 1). Let's say the Lokhust fires six times and hits five. The Necron player then starts rolling for wounds (Str 7 vs T 4 for Marines, so 3+). He's lucky and racks up 4 wounds, which have to be saved at 4+ (the weapon is AP-1).  Marine player only saves half the wounds, so 2 damage has to be applied. Because of the aforementioned allocation, all the damage (2) gets dealt to one unlucky Marine.

Now, let's change the scenario a bit. The Destroyer in this case is using a heavy gauss cannon, because he's confused and thinks the Marines are actually a tank. He puts a single Heavy shot into them. I don't know if heavy gauss is a blast weapon yet, but we'll assume it's not for now. One poor Marine eats a Str 9 AP-4 shot and takes 5 damage. However, this is standard damage, NOT mortal wounds, so the overflow damage doesn't hit the rest of the squad (that poor Marine's geneseed is a writeoff though).

There is an exception to the 'overflow damage is lost' rule though, and that's mortal wounds. Normal damage is applied first, but then mortal wounds, and mortal wounds WILL overflow and hit other members of the unit.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 14, 2020, 01:47:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144843
Missed that. Multi-meltas go to Heavy 2.

Oddly, because of the way the wound allocation rules work, it's not that hard to track. Each attack is allocated to a model (and you resolve each attack one at a time, no assigning all the attacks to one poor schmuck). If the model already has wounds the attack MUST be allocated to that model.

So if you have ten Marines (2 wounds), and they suddenly come under fire from a Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with an enmitic exterminator (Heavy 3d3, Dmg 1). Let's say the Lokhust fires six times and hits five. The Necron player then starts rolling for wounds (Str 7 vs T 4 for Marines, so 3+). He's lucky and racks up 4 wounds, which have to be saved at 4+ (the weapon is AP-1).  Marine player only saves half the wounds, so 2 damage has to be applied. Because of the aforementioned allocation, all the damage (2) gets dealt to one unlucky Marine.

Now, let's change the scenario a bit. The Destroyer in this case is using a heavy gauss cannon, because he's confused and thinks the Marines are actually a tank. He puts a single Heavy shot into them. I don't know if heavy gauss is a blast weapon yet, but we'll assume it's not for now. One poor Marine eats a Str 9 AP-4 shot and takes 5 damage. However, this is standard damage, NOT mortal wounds, so the overflow damage doesn't hit the rest of the squad (that poor Marine's geneseed is a writeoff though).

There is an exception to the 'overflow damage is lost' rule though, and that's mortal wounds. Normal damage is applied first, but then mortal wounds, and mortal wounds WILL overflow and hit other members of the unit.

Yeah. The would allocation makes it not so bad. Both changes still run the risk of the meta running towards Heavy Bolters. I was planning to run all HB's in my Retributor squads anyway. :D
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 31, 2020, 09:38:37 AM
Been working on assembling some more Necrons. I picked up half an Indomitus set and a couple Doomsday Arks.

The 'snap together' design GW used for the Indomitus models works very well -- except when it -doesn't-. Pegs and holes can be tighter than ... well, I'll just stop right there. You get the idea. I found it was worth it to shave the peg with my X-acto knife a touch before a couple assemblies.

That being said, the new Skorpekh Destroyers are frightening things, and the Plasmancer looks suitably ominous (his pose has him pointing with a finger as if to say, 'You. Yeah, you. You're boned, boy.').
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 31, 2020, 09:30:44 PM
Part of me really wants to get into the game for the adeptus mechanicus, but fuck that shit is ludicrously expensive and from what I read shit can eange wildly in power per edition.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Spinachcat on September 01, 2020, 04:41:32 AM
You can save lots of money buying "used" Warhammer figs. Lots of people buy boxes, barely assemble any, then put the box on eBay for half price (or less). I've also gotten great deals by buying whole armies in bulk and then selling off pieces back on eBay. I can't assemble or paint figs (no talent plus no patience), so I buy my minis painted and I often pay the same as a new unassembled box.
Title: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2020, 06:11:07 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1147135
You can save lots of money buying "used" Warhammer figs. Lots of people buy boxes, barely assemble any, then put the box on eBay for half price (or less). I've also gotten great deals by buying whole armies in bulk and then selling off pieces back on eBay. I can't assemble or paint figs (no talent plus no patience), so I buy my minis painted and I often pay the same as a new unassembled box.

No kidding. I already found deals up to 20% off or more. How the heck does that work?
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on September 02, 2020, 11:32:49 AM
Part of me really wants to get into the game for the adeptus mechanicus, but fuck that shit is ludicrously expensive and from what I read shit can eange wildly in power per edition.


1. It's not called "plastic crack" for nothing.  8)
2. GW is trying to dampen the power swings. Trying. That said, most of the complaints come when GW takes away someone's "easy button" and they have to actually learn to play.
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 02, 2020, 11:56:01 AM
When I started reading the 9th ed manual and it has a manual for the manual i admit im getting cold feet.
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: RandyB on September 02, 2020, 01:11:51 PM
When I started reading the 9th ed manual and it has a manual for the manual i admit im getting cold feet.


Unfortunately, 40K has a particularly nasty strain of Rules Lawyers, making that necessary.
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 02, 2020, 02:01:26 PM

Unfortunately, 40K has a particularly nasty strain of Rules Lawyers, making that necessary.


Not sure what competitive minis game doesn’t. Still have better layouts. But what scares me off the most us what I heard about the complacent playerbase. Whenever a playerbase is in a state of dependancy to a company thats a bad sign.
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 28, 2020, 04:37:34 PM
So they're rolling out some of the changes to Necrons on Warhammer Community. I already foresee some anger forthcoming.


Because they changed Reanimation Protocols AGAIN.


Originally, 'We'll Be Back!' (WBB) kicked in once and any failures meant those models were removed. Then 5th edition rolled around, and the newly named Reanimation Protocols (RP) now kicked in every turn as long as the unit was still in play. If a blob of Necron warriors 20 strong lost seven models, it could reanimate three the next turn, and then (assuming it took no casualties) could still reanimate the other four on subsequent turns. Since prior WBB rolls were on a 4+, the new RP rolls were now on a 5+ but it was a pretty good trade off in my opinion, as a unit left to its own devices might just reconstruct itself!


The writeup is kind of incoherent, probably to prevent Necron players from realizing this is a nerf to RP. Essentially, you roll for the wounds taken (which isn't the problem here) and for every 5+, you 'reanimate' one wound (which makes me think this is a ham-handed attempt to make it equivalent to the old Feel No Pain rules). While this is pretty simple for Necron Warriors, it nerfs multi-wound units (such as Destroyers) slightly as they have to 'reanimate' enough wounds to comprise a full model. No 'roll 5+ to get back a three-wound unit', you have to make three 5+ rolls to get him back up.


The bad news is that this only happens after an enemy's shooting/fighting phase, and it only occurs once, which seems to obviate the way it ran originally. And you cannot modify the RP roll by more than +1/-1, so it can't be any better than a 4+.


If anyone has any counter-arguments, I'm listening.
Title: Re: Warhammer 40K Ninth edition
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 07, 2020, 09:05:03 AM
Stuff dropping regarding the new codexes (Spess Mehreens and Necrons).

Necrons get some nice new tricks and toys. Quantum Shielding gets... I'm not even sure it's a nerf, I'll have to see how it plays out. It goes from 'roll a d6, if you roll under the damage dealt, you take no damage at all', to 'regardless of weapon strength, target can only be wounded at best on a 4+, and they have a 5+ invulnerable in addition to standard armor save'. Which makes busting out the tank-killer weapons on some Necron vehicles to be less than efficient.

My guess about multi-wound models was correct. Living metal is popping up in a lot more statblocks. C'tan shards can't take more than three damage in a phase. Void Dragon is bad enough, but Nightbringer is a melee monster with settings of 'mulch infantry' and 'shred armor'.

Monolith gets buffs, moves to Lord of War slot. Lokhust Destroyers (the old Destroyer models) move to Heavy Support. Spyders move to Elite (okaaaay...).