In the other thread, a section of the combat example was given.  Here's the entire Conflict Example.  Fair use, criticism, yadda yadda, here it is.  It's extremely long for a post, I tried to break it up as much as possible to have it make sense.  This should be enough for people to make up their minds one way or another.

The remainder of this post is all from Torchbearer, pages 176-178.

Conflict Example
Our group got together to test the demo adventure and characters. Merrill, playing Varg, is the leader. Jared plays Gerald, Luke plays Beren, Joss plays Karolina, Megan plays Taika, Thor plays Ulrik and Dro is the game master.

Dro: Herding the rescued prisoners before you, you stumble back into the ruins of the cellar. You’re breathing hard from the desperate run. The sound of angry yips, chitters and screams is coming ever closer! The room appears as you left it, full of smashed debris from where the stairs collapsed when you came down here. In the dim light of your torches you can make out the exit from this death trap, 20 feet above your heads. What do you do?

Merrill: I scan the room, looking at the junk. Is there anything to use for a ladder?

Dro: Hmmm. Oh yes. Varg spots a rickety ladder hidden by the rubbish in the cellar. It was stored behind the stairs before they collapsed.

Merrill: Varg digs it out and sets up the ladder. “Let’s get out of here!”Dro: Okay. Ladder is set up. But! As you do, a pack of kobolds start to rush into the cellar. The prisoners you rescued are freaking out and running toward the ladder. But, it is too late! The kobolds will get them.

Joss: We’re going to have to hold the door until the prisoners can get out of here!

Thor: We could always try to negotiate. We give them back the prisoners and they let us go.

Megan: No way! After all we went through to rescue them?

Merrill: Our luck has to turn sometime. Dro, we’re going to stand our ground and buy the prisoners time to escape. Hopefully we can drive the kobolds off.

Dro: Sounds good. That’ll be a drive off conflict. Who’s your conflict captain?

Merrill: Karolina and Beren are our best fighters. Joss, you lead. Beren nearly got us killed in the last fight.

Luke: That was not my fault!

Dro: Okay. Joss, roll your Fighter and add your successes to your Health to determine your starting disposition. Everyone who has helped adds +1D if you have the Fighter skill.

Karolina has a Fighter skill of 4, so Joss grabs 4 six-sided dice. Varg doesn’t have the Fighter skill, so Merrill can’t help, but Jared, Luke, Megan and Thor all pass a die to Joss. Joss rolls 8 dice and gets 4, 3, 5, 1, 2, 6, 4, 6: 5 successes! However, Karolina is exhausted, so that’s a -1s penalty to the result. And worse, Beren is hungry and thirsty which knocks off another success, for a total of 3 successes.

Joss adds those 3 successes to her Health 4 to get the party’s starting disposition of 7. Joss then grabs 7 stones to represent the party’s disposition. She has one extra stone, which she passes to Merrill, hoping Varg the Apprentice has a trick or two up his sleeve.

Meanwhile, Dro checks the kobold stat block. Kobolds don’t have the drive off conflict listed as one of their core conflicts, but they do have Swarming as one of their Nature descriptors. Since they’re definitely swarming, Dro will roll Nature for the unlisted conflict and add the successes to their Nature rating.

He gathers 2 dice for the lead kobold’s Nature and 7 dice to represent the other kobolds’ help. Dro rolls 9 dice and gets 1, 1, 3, 6, 6, 5, 2, 5, 4: 5 successes! Dro adds those 5 successes to the lead kobold’s Nature 2 for a disposition of 7.Dro takes 7 stones and distributes them to his kobolds. Unfortunately, he only has 7 stones for his 8 kobolds. One of those kobolds won’t get into the conflict at all.

Dro: As the kobolds rush toward you, one of them produces what you might call a bomb from his little pouch. But then the bomb explodes in his hand before he can throw it. Through the smoke, you see a blackened form slumping to the ground.

Everyone looks confused.

Dro: Too many kobolds. He couldn’t help.

All: Oh! Cool!

Dro: What weapons will you use? The kobolds use slings.

Jared: Gerald is using a sling, too!

Joss: I’m wielding my spear.

Luke: Beren has Ronwald’s sword. I’ve got a lantern in my other hand, but I’m using the sword.

Megan: I’m using a dagger as my weapon.

Merrill: I’m casting Wizard’s Aegis.

Thor: I’m using my shield.

Dro nods and chooses his actions for the first round of the conflict. After Dro’s done, the players huddle for a quick discussion before choosing actions.

Jared: I bet he’s going to set up for a big hit. I say we start off with a Feint.

Thor: I don’t know man. I think they’ll do a suicide charge. If he Attacks, we’ll be screwed if we Feint. I think we should come out hard with an Attack and try to knock as many out of the conflict as quickly as we can.

Megan: Yeah! I say we Attack Attack Attack.

Joss listens to their advice, then decides on her own course, selecting Maneuver, Attack, Defend. She assigns Gerald the Maneuver, keeps the first Attack for Karolina and gives the Defend to Ulrik.

Once Joss has finished selecting actions, Dro reveals his first action: Maneuver.

Jared: See! We should have Feinted! We’re also Maneuvering.

Dro: Great. These are independent, and Maneuver uses Will in a drive off conflict. The kobolds rush you en masse, flinging stones with their slings to knock you down.

Jared: We left that cask of beer in the room they’re moving through, right? I fling a stone with all my might at one of the casks. Hopefully they’ll slip in the beer!

Megan: No, not the beer!

Thor: I’m helping!

After Gerald flings his stone, Ulrik braces himself behind his shield and blocks the doorway.

Luke: Beren grumbles, “Damned fools, all of you. Should have run. Could have collected ransom.” I toss debris into the path of the onrushing kobolds.

Merrill: I begin chanting like I’m casting a spell. I throw up my cloak. That should scare them off!

Megan: I stand beside Ulrik and kick them back if they get too close. I glare at Gerald about the beer.

Joss: I poke at any that she misses with my spear!

Jared grabs 5D for Gerald’s Health 5, and an additional 2D because he’s Maneuvering with a sling. Then Thor, Luke, Merrill, Megan and Joss each pass him a helping die, for a total of 12D. Jared rolls 6 successes.

Dro grabs 2D for the Nature of the kobold leading the action, +2D for its sling, and +6D for help from the other kobolds for a total of 10D. He manages a measly 5 successes.

Jared: Hmmm. We could disarm one of them, but there are so many. I spend one of our successes to impede them on their next roll (-1D) and another two successes to gain position on our next roll (+2D). Nothing I can do with the remaining two successes. I guess we manage to take up a position holding the door, and they’re slipping and sliding as the cask spills all over the floor!

Dro: Okay. I’m going to spend 3 successes to disarm your sling: It goes flying out of your hands and into the room with the kobolds. I’m going to spend the last success to impede you. You are a perfect target for a volley of sling stones…or something else. Heh. Your impede and gain position minus my impede, means you’re +1D to your next action and I’m -1D to the next action.

Jared: Can’t I use my armor to reduce that?

Dro: No, armor only works against Attack and Feint. Let’s go to action two. I’ve got an Attack.

Joss: I’m taking this action. We’re also Attacking.

Dro: Too bad they have slings or you could have thrown your spear here. They spread out and you hear, you might say, a whirling buzz before they unleash a deadly hail of stones at you.

Attack to Attack is independent. Attack uses Fighter in a drive off conflict.

Joss: Screw it! I go wading in with my spear. I’m going to spit them two at a time. Aaaaah! I’m using my Heart of Battle trait to help myself.

Megan: Me too. I start stabbing the little monsters with my dagger.

Thor: I’m going to hold the doorway so they can retreat to safety when they come to their senses!

Luke: I’ll cut down any that try to work their way around and surround Karolina and Taika. Beren keeps grumbling!

Merrill: Varg doesn’t have the Fighter skill, but I’m Skirmish-wise. I stand behind Ulrik and start shouting orders. “Everybody duck now!”

Dro: Jared, what about you? Are you helping?

Jared: I don’t know what to do. I lost my sling.

Dro: You can still help. You just have to tell me what you do. Nothing? Okay. Gerald isn’t helping on this one.

Joss grabs 4D for Karolina’s Fighter skill, +1D from her Heart of Battle trait, +1D from the Maneuver Jared led on the last action, +3D from the help offered by Megan, Thor and Luke, and +1D from Merrill’s I Am Wise. She rolls 10D in total for 6 successes, but subtracts -1s since she’s exhausted. Attacks are independent of other Attacks, thus Dro’s kobolds lose 5 points of disposition.

Dro grabs 2D for his lead kobold’s Nature, +6D from the help of the other kobolds and -1D from the results of the Maneuver on the last action. He rolls 7D for a rather improbable 6 successes. Since Attack against Attack is independent, the players’ team loses 6 points of disposition. They’re down to 1 point! Karolina has leather armor, so Joss rolls a die to see whether it deflected some of the damage. It comes up a 5, so it blunts the Attack by one success! That means the players’ team is down to 2 points, not 1.

Since Joss led the action, she discards her hit point stone first. They still need to discard five more stones. Thor was slated to have the next action, but Merrill tugs Thor’s sleeve.

Merrill: I’ve got this. Give me the last action.

Thor consents and everyone but Merrill discards their stones. Since she’s the last person standing, she takes over as conflict captain from Joss.

Dro: Stones go flying as you lay waste to kobold after kobold. But unfortunately, they lay waste to you, too! You all are struck down except for Varg, huddling behind Ulrik. My last action is Attack. The last two kobolds standing claw their way over their fallen brethren and leap at you.

Merrill: We’re Defending, so Attack versus Defend. Varg stands tall, flings back his cloak and summons his Wizard’s Aegis! It’s a glowing shield formed from the Chaos sigil. Also, Varg is a Loner. He always knew it would end this way, him alone against the darkness. I’m using the Loner trait to help myself. I also have a chrysoprase ring—it counts as spell supplies for this spell.

Wizard’s Aegis allows Merrill to substitute Arcanist for the Defend skill in kill, capture and drive off conflicts, so she grabs 4D for her Arcanist skill. She adds +1D for the Loner trait and +1D for the spell supplies for a total of 6D.

Dro takes 2D for the lead kobold’s Nature and +1D for help from the other remaining kobold for a total of 3D. He manages 2 success.

Merrill rolls her 6D and manages 3 successes for a margin of success of 1. However, Wizard’s Aegis grants +1s to tied and successful tests, so she nets 2 successes total.

The team’s disposition goes up from 2 to 4. She can now regroup. Since each player started with one hit point, she can drag two characters back into the conflict.

Dro: The kobolds come slavering toward you until they smash into your Wizard’s Aegis. There’s a horrible sizzle and they fall back screaming.

Merrill: Varg kicks a kobold off Ulrik and hauls him to his feet. And with a sigh he says to Beren, “All right old man, don’t screw this up again!”

Ulrik and Beren are back in the fight.

Dro: With the cover of the Aegis, Beren and Ulrik are able to pick themselves up. It’s a new round. What weapons are you using? The kobolds are switching to bombs! The kobolds are down to 2 points of disposition. You guys have 4.

Merrill: Wizard’s Aegis is working well for me. I’m sticking with it!

Luke: Beren’s going with Ronwald’s sword. It better not break like the last one.

Thor: I’m using my shield. Noting that both Merrill and Thor have chosen actions that favor Defends, Dro decides to try catching them out with a Feint Defend Attack.

Jared: Look at him. He’s smiling. I bet he’s leading with a Feint. You guys should Attack first. I’d Attack Feint Feint.

Thor: No way! If I were him, I would Attack and try to get a 0-0 tie. Maybe we should Maneuver first to protect against that. Maneuver Attack Attack?

Jared: You guys never listen to me!

Everyone laughs.

Merrill decides to risk a tie and picks Attack Attack Defend. She can’t take the first action since she was the last person to act, so she assigns the first action to Luke, the second action to Thor and keeps the Defend for herself.

Dro: Heh heh! You guys should have listened to Jared for once. I’m Feinting.

Jared: See!

Luke: Oh? Hmmm. What’s this?

Luke reveals his Attack. The players cheer! Dro scowls.

Dro: Fine. The kobolds pick themselves up and back away from you feigning terror. You notice a tiny trail of smoke from the lit bomb they hid in the debris, hoping to lure you right into it.

Luke: Ha! Beren kicks the bomb at them and then plunges forward, chopping at them with his sword. He mutters, “Eat it, little blood suckers.” I use my sword die for Attack. Oh…but I’m Scarred! My knee tweaks a bit as I kick the bomb and I’m hobbling by the time I get to them. I use my Scarred trait against myself for a check.

Thor: I get on Beren’s left side with my shield ready. Hopefully I can keep that crazy dwarf from taking a bomb to the face.

Merrill: If you screw this up with that stupid trait, I’ll kill you!

Attack beats Feint, so Dro doesn’t get to roll anything. Luke grabs 4D for his Fighter skill, +1D for his sword, -1D for using Scarred against himself. Thor passes him +1D for help. Luke rolls his 5D and gets 2 successes! It’s enough to knock the kobolds out of the fight.

While the kobolds have been successfully driven off, the players lost 3 of their initial 7 hit points—about half. They owe Dro a compromise.

Dro: You win. They are driven off—running into the cold room. But as soon as they disappear you hear them squeal in terror. The sound frightens your escapees who rush up the ladder and pull it up after them. As you turn to curse them out, you see a shadow of something large with many legs coming through the cold room…

All: Agh! Run!

QuoteDro: As the kobolds rush toward you, one of them produces what you might call a bomb from his little pouch. But then the bomb explodes in his hand before he can throw it. Through the smoke, you see a blackened form slumping to the ground.

[Everyone looks confused.]

Dro: Too many kobolds. He couldn’t help.

That's a... unique... take on things. Certainly coming from a POV of 'the creature is important in this one encounter only, doesn't matter how we describe it giving +0 dice".

Quote from: CRKrueger;701525Dro: Sounds good. That'll be a drive off conflict. Who's your conflict captain?

Conflict captain sounds like something out of kindergarten.

QuoteMeanwhile, Dro checks the kobold stat block. Kobolds don't have the drive off conflict listed as one of their core conflicts, but they do have Swarming as one of their Nature descriptors. Since they're definitely swarming, Dro will roll Nature for the unlisted conflict and add the successes to their Nature rating.

Back in the day, kobolds just had hit points.

QuoteHe gathers 2 dice for the lead kobold's Nature and 7 dice to represent the other kobolds' help. Dro rolls 9 dice and gets 1, 1, 3, 6, 6, 5, 2, 5, 4: 5 successes! Dro adds those 5 successes to the lead kobold's Nature 2 for a disposition of 7.Dro takes 7 stones and distributes them to his kobolds. Unfortunately, he only has 7 stones for his 8 kobolds. One of those kobolds won't get into the conflict at all.

What?  I don't understand this at all.  So you distribute your total hit points among every enemy combatant?

This is one of the reasons that the system is bad already: there are eight kobolds, but the encounter doesn't actually have eight kobolds.  It has a pool of hit points to whack at.

QuoteDro: As the kobolds rush toward you, one of them produces what you might call a bomb from his little pouch. But then the bomb explodes in his hand before he can throw it. Through the smoke, you see a blackened form slumping to the ground.

Everyone looks confused.

Dro: Too many kobolds. He couldn't help.

All: Oh! Cool!

Again, we see here a dissociation between the game mechanics and what happens itself.  The game mechanics come first, and then an explanation of what is happening is used to justify it.  It should be the other way around: character first, metagame second.

QuoteJoss listens to their advice, then decides on her own course, selecting Maneuver, Attack, Defend. She assigns Gerald the Maneuver, keeps the first Attack for Karolina and gives the Defend to Ulrik.

The character needs to decide what happens, not the "conflict captain."  This system is based around the metagame.  It feels like in those old school JRPGs where you have one leader and the party trails behind him.

QuoteJared: Hmmm. We could disarm one of them, but there are so many. I spend one of our successes to impede them on their next roll (-1D) and another two successes to gain position on our next roll (+2D). Nothing I can do with the remaining two successes. I guess we manage to take up a position holding the door, and they're slipping and sliding as the cask spills all over the floor!

Dro: Okay. I'm going to spend 3 successes to disarm your sling: It goes flying out of your hands and into the room with the kobolds. I'm going to spend the last success to impede you. You are a perfect target for a volley of sling stones...or something else. Heh. Your impede and gain position minus my impede, means you're +1D to your next action and I'm -1D to the next action.

All metagame.  The player never said, "I'm going to try to disarm a kobold."  The player never said, "I'm going to try to gain an advantageous position on them."  Once again we have a post-hoc justification for the mechanical outcome that barely considers what is occurring within the world.

QuoteMerrill: I've got this. Give me the last action.

Thor consents and everyone but Merrill discards their stones. Since she's the last person standing, she takes over as conflict captain from Joss.

What.

QuoteThe team's disposition goes up from 2 to 4. She can now regroup. Since each player started with one hit point, she can drag two characters back into the conflict.

The rest of this is...I don't know, it's not good.  It's a system written to enforce certain behaviors among the players and the DMs.  It feels like Crane had some bad D&D groups when he was younger and he wanted to force everyone to work together, and he had to force them into this tiny square box to make the game "safe" to play.

Looks like a bunch of people having fun.

Quote from: Noclue;701575Looks like a bunch of people having fun.

So does Morris Dancing. Doesn't mean I'm signing up.

And speaking of which...

Quoteand he had to force them into this tiny square box to make the game "safe" to play.

...all this reminds me of the Story Games Official Anthem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjPau5QYtYs

Pretty sure that footage is from an actual Burning Wheel game.

Sounds like just another game for the list of games which Aren't For Me.

It's a big list. It won't get lonely.

Seems like a rather fiddly system.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;701543The character needs to decide what happens, not the "conflict captain."  This system is based around the metagame.  It feels like in those old school JRPGs where you have one leader and the party trails behind him.

The "conflict captain" sounds like the caller role taken to the nth degree.

I'll say it again, that combat example seems ridiculous; with it getting that fiddly, I'd say I couldn't be bothered.

Quote from: K Peterson;701625Seems like a rather fiddly system.


The "conflict captain" sounds like the caller role taken to the nth degree.

It also gives credence to the view that it's an almighty piss-take by people who aren't qualified to do one with more subtlety.

This would have made a really great board game, instead of trying to shoehorn it into an rpg mold for whatever reason.

Also, lol @ 'Conflict Captain'

Quote from: dragoner;701640I'll say it again, that combat example seems ridiculous; with it getting that fiddly, I'd say I couldn't be bothered.

Many games would look like that, if you went into the full thought process for any mechanics decision... and for an example of the mehcanics of play, that's exactly the right way of doing it, by-the-book, straight-down-the-line. Examples of play should match up to the game rules, and not take shortcuts; anyone playing the game can learn their own shortcuts themselves.

If you (The designer) don't want your mechanics of play to look so complicated, cut out the rules that make an example look complicated. If you're not happy with your design, refine it. Iterate.

...Evidently, the Torchbearer folks are happy with the design of their system. And that's fine.

Quote from: One Horse Town;701645It also gives credence to the view that it's an almighty piss-take by people who aren't qualified to do one with more subtlety.

It's not.

Quote from: dragoner;701640I'll say it again, that combat example seems ridiculous; with it getting that fiddly, I'd say I couldn't be bothered.

Dog's breakfast comes to mind.  I fail to see how the system being demonstrated is superior, or even equal to the main fantasy RPG's.  What is the draw?

Quote from: Arduin;701656Dog's breakfast comes to mind.  I fail to see how the system being demonstrated is superior, or even equal to the main fantasy RPG's.  What is the draw?

Games have to be superior to one another? There's a one true way?