Quote from: soviet;607961Well, I think this is part of the dance that goes on here. 'Storygames' are railed against in the vaguest possible terms and sent off to Other Games forum as 'not proper roleplaying'. When there is a discussion about how storygames do terrible thing X, or don't do awesome thing Y, and someone says 'Well hang on, in fact Dogs/BW/Sorcerer/etc hardly touches X and has loads of Y', the response is 'sure, that game is not really a storygame per se'. But when it comes to where that game is allowed to be discussed, or how much of a communist subversive that game's author and players are, suddenly the label is applied blindly again and with full force. It's a way of maintaining the war without having to deal with any facts.

(Not saying that you are doing any of this BTW Crabbyapples!)

I will concede that I am probably not the best person to try to positively define storygames; what with me not actually liking storygames.

It would be absolutely great if storygamers were to make a concerted effort to define storygames, as its own unique and separate hobby, outside the RPG hobby, the way RPGs did with Wargames.

Unfortunately, storygamers seem to prefer to intentionally try to avoid any strict definitions so as to continue to attempt to subvert the RPG hobby instead of doing what they ought to, and trying to make it on their own.

Now, I may not be the best person to give a good definition of what a storygame is; nor would I care, since I don't enjoy storygames; but I'm a very good person to define what is NOT an RPG.

Is burning wheel a storygame? I've probably called it that out of laziness and lack of a better term; but ultimately, that's not for me to judge.
On the other hand, its various mechanical violations of the landmarks make it NOT an RPG.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;608207100%

That number does not mean what you think it means.

Quote from: CRKrueger;608210You specifically said "Storygame RPGs", do you think all Storygames are always RPGs or are you drawing a distinction between "Storygame RPGs" and "Storygames"?

Hmm. I'm not deliberately trying to draw a distinction in my terminology, no. I can see that there is a spectrum, with stuff like Burning Wheel and Dogs on the one side and weirder edge stuff like Fiasco and My Life With Master on the other. And for the record, I don't give a shit about the latter kind of game, they interest me not at all. If you want to say that Universalis isn't an RPG, I don't really care one way or the other.

What I see happening is that vague criticisms of 'storygames' are made that only really apply to the more extreme side of the spectrum. But these criticisms - and resulting policy changes about thread movements etc - are then sort of blindly applied to the more middle of the road storygames as well, such as BW, where they don't really apply. It's those middle of the road storygames that people actually play.

It may well be that a third category would be useful. Traditional RPGs like AD&D, storygame RPGs like Burning Wheel, and sort of purestrain hyper storygames like Fiasco. Although I think to the vast majority of people the term 'storygame' already includes stuff like BW and Dogs, so it may be too late to redefine it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;608210Either a very specious argument used for deliberate misrepresentation (as twofish frequently used it) or as I think you are using it, points to the key difference between our viewpoints.  If you think roleplaying or not is something you can tell by watching what is going on, you're completely missing the point.  Roleplaying is an internal activity.  What I say, doesn't matter.  Whether my decisions are occuring from the POV of my character or me is something only I know, as that thought process is occurring in my brain alone.

Take for example the earlier conversation between FVB and myself where he was saying if his character was captured by gangbangers, he would consider it a dick move for them to kill his character because that wouldn't make for a very good story.  Roleplaying is a state of mind, and the state of mind behind that statement by FVB is not roleplaying, sorry.  

Either I'm doing something because my character would do it, or I have another motive, tactical, narrative, or socially based.  Any single game is not binary RPG or STG, however, every single decision is.  I'm either making the decision from the POV of the character or I'm adding in other factors.  If the core structures of the game, the base engine of the mechanics forces you to constantly consider things from outside the POV of your character, then it's really hard to see how you can logically consider it a RPG, even if it does contain roleplaying.

I don't agree that full immersion in the character is the only way to roleplay. And I think roleplaying *is* something that you can tell by watching. Some people are method actors (DeNiro), other people are consciously playing a role. It's still roleplaying.

Quote from: CRKrueger;608210Even if you contend that any amount of roleplaying means the game should be considered an RPG, then there should be a qualifier to designate what other non-rpg factors go into the game mechanics.  In other words, a Tactical RPG, Narrative RPG, Literary RPG, whatever the hell you want to come up with but not just "RPG".

I'm not really saying that any amount of roleplaying makes something an RPG. That's where we start talking about whether Monopoly is an RPG when you give the shoe a motivation and talk in a funny voice. Off the cuff, I would say that something is an RPG when roleplaying represents at least half of the experience (as a minimum). But before we could agree on that, we'd first have to agree on what roleplaying is. Is combat roleplaying? Is combat in D&D 4e roleplaying? And so on.

I have no objections to subdividing RPGs into different categories, although I think it will be very difficult to get people to agree as to where the dividing lines are.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;608210Different enough so that if I love or hate narrative mechanics I actually have enough information to know wtf I'm buying?

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. What do you mean by narrative mechanics?

Quote from: RPGPundit;608213I will concede that I am probably not the best person to try to positively define storygames; what with me not actually liking storygames.

It would be absolutely great if storygamers were to make a concerted effort to define storygames, as its own unique and separate hobby, outside the RPG hobby, the way RPGs did with Wargames.

Unfortunately, storygamers seem to prefer to intentionally try to avoid any strict definitions so as to continue to attempt to subvert the RPG hobby instead of doing what they ought to, and trying to make it on their own.

Now, I may not be the best person to give a good definition of what a storygame is; nor would I care, since I don't enjoy storygames; but I'm a very good person to define what is NOT an RPG.

Is burning wheel a storygame? I've probably called it that out of laziness and lack of a better term; but ultimately, that's not for me to judge.
On the other hand, its various mechanical violations of the landmarks make it NOT an RPG.

RPGPundit

There's no conspiracy. People who like storygames aren't deliberately trying to ride the coat-tails of RPGs in some clever act of trickery. Firstly, fucking hell, if they were going to do that, they would surely pick a more successful medium to get in with. Where's the mileage in pretending to be an RPG when you're not?

It may be that some of the hardcore storygames.com people, playing Fiasco in a cafe and stroking their purple goatees, don't consider themselves roleplayers. I don't know, you'd have to ask them. But then I'm not sure they are describing themselves as such either.

I describe myself as a roleplayer. I play storygames (principally, Other Worlds). I also play traditional RPGs (principally, various editions of D&D). I'm not lying. I'm not trying to trick anyone. That's what I am.

I describe the game I wrote (Other Worlds) as an RPG. And I would describe some games I admire (Burning Wheel, etc) as RPGs too. Storygame RPGs, sure, but still RPGs. That's how I play them, that's how other people play them. I'm not lying, I'm not trying to trick anyone, that's what I think they are.

It's a disagreement over terminology, not a secret masterplan.

What exactly makes Burning Wheel or Other Worlds not an RPG?

QuoteWhere's the mileage in pretending to be an RPG when you're not?

Because they'd sell all of twenty copies if they didn't.

You really think Fiasco would have become the surprise viral hit it has if it hadn't been repeatedly billed as a proper RPG?

Quote from: J Arcane;608247Because they'd sell all of twenty copies if they didn't.

You really think Fiasco would have become the surprise viral hit it has if it hadn't been repeatedly billed as a proper RPG?

Are you saying that most people who've bought Fiasco as though it were an RPG now regret their purchase and feel tricked/ripped off?

(I haven't bought or read it, BTW, I have no idea if it's good or not).

Surely if you're going to piggyback on another hobby to get extra sales, roleplaying games are the worst one to choose? If you wrote Fiasco and wanted to do that wouldn't you pretend it was a CCG without the cards, a boardgame without a board, or a computer game without a computer, some bullshit just like that? Or just sell it as a party game like Murder or something?

Quote from: soviet;608253Are you saying that most people who've bought Fiasco as though it were an RPG now regret their purchase and feel tricked/ripped off?

(I haven't bought or read it, BTW, I have no idea if it's good or not).

Surely if you're going to piggyback on another hobby to get extra sales, roleplaying games are the worst one to choose? If you wrote Fiasco and wanted to do that wouldn't you pretend it was a CCG without the cards, a boardgame without a board, or a computer game without a computer, some bullshit just like that? Or just sell it as a party game like Murder or something?

It doesn't look enough like those other things to sell the comparison.

You yourself said it. To you, at the table, playing a game like Fiasco even looks like any other RPG.

Quote from: J Arcane;608254It doesn't look enough like those other things to sell the comparison.

You yourself said it. To you, at the table, playing a game like Fiasco even looks like any other RPG.

I didn't say that. I've never read, played, or owned Fiasco. I don't give a shit about Fiasco. I am talking about middle of the road storygames such as Burning Wheel.

Quote from: RPGPundit;608213Now, I may not be the best person to give a good definition of what a storygame is; nor would I care, since I don't enjoy storygames; but I'm a very good person to define what is NOT an RPG.

on what basis is TBZ not an rpg?

Quote from: J Arcane;608247Because they'd sell all of twenty copies if they didn't.

You really think Fiasco would have become the surprise viral hit it has if it hadn't been repeatedly billed as a proper RPG?

"Roleplaying", in the sense of the hobby we all participate in, isn't that big a draw. Fiasco has probably done well due to how well it emulates the comedy-of-group-collapse genre (Or however you classify Coen Brothers movies), and due to people enjoying playing it... being on Wheaton's youtube thing probably helped, too.

I haven't played it.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;608258on what basis is TBZ not an rpg?

Well, this thread is in the "Other Games" forum, for a start. And the word "story" is in the book. Listen, just don't mention "story".

I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.

Well, call it a roleplaying game or story game, TBZ is fun as hell.

One thing I've noticed: death is consensual. Failure is not. A bad series of dice rolls will still screw you over, but the player decides the way that the combat failure goes: either you're unconscious for like a day and wake back up again, or you toss all your chips in the pot, fail anyway, and die.

The example I like to use is Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride: you can take a near-lethal wound, go down, and stay down, and then you're done. That's it. Out of the fight. Or you can check off your dead box, get back up, and try to keep going, and if you go down THAT time, then you're gone. It's not that hard for the game master to set up the battles so that players are forced to check off their dead boxes and burn lots of karma to win.

I do wonder, however, how much of this was actually in the rules, and how much of it is revisionism and wishful thinking on the translator's part. He's pretty much admitted that at least two mechanics (Kongohki Overdrive and Strategy) were changed from the original Japanese. I wonder how much of the game master hints and the other side material comes from Andy K, too. And there were a couple of pieces of advice that I simply rebelled against and had to say, "No. That's not how it works."

Either way, the game works for me.

Themocaw

Quote from: RPGPundit;608213I will concede that I am probably not the best person to try to positively define storygames; what with me not actually liking storygames.

It would be absolutely great if storygamers were to make a concerted effort to define storygames, as its own unique and separate hobby, outside the RPG hobby, the way RPGs did with Wargames.

Unfortunately, storygamers seem to prefer to intentionally try to avoid any strict definitions so as to continue to attempt to subvert the RPG hobby instead of doing what they ought to, and trying to make it on their own.

Now, I may not be the best person to give a good definition of what a storygame is; nor would I care, since I don't enjoy storygames; but I'm a very good person to define what is NOT an RPG.

Is burning wheel a storygame? I've probably called it that out of laziness and lack of a better term; but ultimately, that's not for me to judge.
On the other hand, its various mechanical violations of the landmarks make it NOT an RPG.

Storygames are defined as the games you don't like. Well that's refreshingly honest, although I cannot be the only one who appreciates the irony in your stance being so similar to Ron Edwards on Simulationism.

Quote from: themocaw;608351I do wonder, however, how much of this was actually in the rules, and how much of it is revisionism and wishful thinking on the translator's part. He's pretty much admitted that at least two mechanics (Kongohki Overdrive and Strategy) were changed from the original Japanese. I wonder how much of the game master hints and the other side material comes from Andy K, too. And there were a couple of pieces of advice that I simply rebelled against and had to say, "No. That's not how it works."

Don't take this the wrong way but I would like to see people actually get the Japanese version and compare the two instead of spreading disingenuous cowardly bullshit.

Kitkowski changed what he said he changed. The onus is on you to provide proof that he's lying.

On a more gaming and less theory/personal agenda related note, I'll probably be running TBZ this weekend for one of my groups.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;608465On a more gaming and less theory/personal agenda related note, I'll probably be running TBZ this weekend for one of my groups.

4th session this weekend:

My players are rallying allies to overthrow the Tachibana usurper. So far they have secured the help of the Inami pirates (who hate the new Regent even more than his predecessor), the South Court, Mutsu provincial lords and a King of tengus. Before launching an assault, they also want to restore a Great Yoroi gone astray and use it to create havoc.

Quote from: vytzka;608369Don't take this the wrong way but I would like to see people actually get the Japanese version and compare the two instead of spreading disingenuous cowardly bullshit.

Kitkowski changed what he said he changed. The onus is on you to provide proof that he's lying.

If I read Japanese, I would. As it is, I only have his word at the moment that his translation is accurate. And he's already made one rather glaring error in the Aiuchi rules.

I'm not accusing him of maliciously lying. I don't believe he has any reason to. But I do wonder if certain turns of phrase or word choice were influenced by his personal tastes in roleplaying games. And I do say roleplaying games: Dead Box and consensual death aside, Tenra Bansho Zero feels like pure roleplaying game.

Sudden insight: Is the Dead Box mechanic a cultural artifact based on the samurai ethos towards death? A "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain" type thing?

All of that is secondary. What I know is that I love Tenra Bansho Zero and look forward to playing it again soon enough.