Quote from: CRKrueger;606157Short Version:

Storygame - No

RPG with (pretty heavy) Narrative mechanics, yes.

As we would classify them, Ben, I'd say it's about 50/50.

Jesus, thanks. An actual fucking answer. Hallelujah!

What are those pretty heavy narrative mechanics? How about a quote from the "what is role playing" section from the book?

Quote from: Benoist;606159Is the role of game master or referee standard, e.g. the word of the game master is law, you can modify the rules, the rules are infeoded to you, not the reverse, or is it constrained by specific actions GMs can and cannot do during the course of the game?

From the book:

THE GM's POWERS AND ABILITIES
For the player who participates as the GM, there are some additional powers and abilities that come with the job. Of course, they should stick to the rules as much as possible. Moreover, they should try their hardest to apply the rules impartially to all the players.
If the GM makes a mistake in the application of a rule, they should apologize immediately and use the correct rule from that point on. Don't try to "rewind time", as it were, and try to reapply the correct rule to the situation. Think of it like a referee's call in a sports game; it shouldn't be undone. What's past is past. Just make an effort to use the correct rule or judgment in the future.

1: RULE CHANGES AND CANCELLATION
The GM is allowed to change rules or decide to work around or outside of the rules at any time.

2: DECIDE HOW TO USE RULES TO RESOLVE A SITUATION
In situations where the rules don't clearly cover how to resolve a situation, the GM can decide which rules should be used or how to resolve that particular situation.
If the GM faces a situation where the rules don't apply at all or where the PCs what to do something not covered in the rules, please use the following criteria when thinking of a judgment:
Does it feel like it fits the atmosphere of the scene?
Does it sound cool?
Does it seem to fit inside the plans of the rest of the adventure?
Does it add to the fun of the players?

3: CANCELING THE EFFECT OF ANOTHER PLAYER'S ACTION
If the player decides to do something that completely counteracts the atmosphere of the game, the GM can say that it didn't happen, and have the player choose their action again. The GM should never have to use this power often with a focused group of enthusiastic players, but it is there as a sort of "emergency break", just in case.

4: DECIDING THE ACTIONS OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.
The GM can control the basic actions of the NPCs without making them roll dice. They simply succeed or fail at tasks as the GM decides.


From the Rules Lexicon:

Game Master or GM This is the person in the group who is in charge of the game. She is responsible for the flow of the game, setting the stage and creating scenes, and creating the adventure scenario in which the other players will play. She also creates conflicts for the characters, and describes what happens when the players react to those conflicts. The GM is also the referee and judge of the rules.

Player or PC
The rest of the participants in the game aside from the GM are players. Each player is in charge of a Player Character (PC), which they guide through role-play. Players who take part in a scene are called "acting players", and a player who takes the role of an important character for that scene is called the "scene player".

Player Character or PC
These are the heroes and characters that the players use to tell a story, as opposed to the background characters that the heroes meet, which are called NPCs.

Non-Player Character or NPC
These are the various story characters that the Game Master controls, such as townspeople, leaders, and villains. They interact with the PCs. Sometimes the players will take on the roles of these NPCs as well.

Quote from: Benoist;606159Is the purpose of this game world and/or genre emulation, immersion, or something else? Is it to immerse in the game world as your character, with the rules basically describing what your character can do in the world, or is it a game where you are the co-author of a story, with mechanics that allow you to influence the flow of the game outside of your character, e.g. narrative mechanics? Is the role of game master or referee standard, e.g. the word of the game master is law, you can modify the rules, the rules are infeoded to you, not the reverse, or is it constrained by specific actions GMs can and cannot do during the course of the game?

The players play their PCs and the rules govern the PCs action.

There are narrative mechanics in that bennies are awarded if the PC acts in accord with their Fates (much like in Storyteller's Nature, FATE's Aspects or Pendragon's Virtues).

There is also some genre emulation in that when the PC gains sufficient power, they become Asura (a Buddhist concept of a person fallen to the dark side).

Quote from: Benoist;606159Is it a regular RPG according to Pundit's landmarks?

Mr Pundit doesn't like it, if that's what you are asking.

Quote from: Frundsberg;606164From the book:

Cool. Thanks Frundsberg. Is there a "what is role playing?" section in the book? Could you quote the definition of role playing one can find there? Thanks.

Quote from: Benoist;606166Cool. Thanks Frundsberg. Is there a "what is role playing?" section in the book? Could you quote the definition of role playing one can find there? Thanks.

Of course:

WHAT IS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?
A role-playing game is a form of creative entertainment that you engage in with your friends. It's an ancient form of entertainment given new form. Behind all of the gloss, dice, and rules this game simply comes down to telling stories with your friends.
Together with a group of friends, you will create a tale. The story will have a backdrop, the world of Tenra. It will have unique and interesting characters, which you will role- play: You will pretend to be those characters, guiding their actions and speaking through them. Using some rules and a little creativity, a story will develop. There will be crises and climaxes, and the characters will change as you pass from chapter to chapter in the story.

Quote from: Skywalker;606165Mr Pundit doesn't like it, if that's what you are asking.

No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm talking about the game theory landmarks posted by the Pundit in the design and dev forum. Is this game violating any of the landmarks? Does it define itself as a narrative game, for instance?

Quote from: Frundsberg;606167Of course:

WHAT IS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?
A role-playing game is a form of creative entertainment that you engage in with your friends. It's an ancient form of entertainment given new form. Behind all of the gloss, dice, and rules this game simply comes down to telling stories with your friends.
Together with a group of friends, you will create a tale. The story will have a backdrop, the world of Tenra. It will have unique and interesting characters, which you will role- play: You will pretend to be those characters, guiding their actions and speaking through them. Using some rules and a little creativity, a story will develop. There will be crises and climaxes, and the characters will change as you pass from chapter to chapter in the story.

Awesome. Thanks again, Frundsberg. This is very helpful.

That confirms that TBZ is not for me.

Quote from: Benoist;606168Does it define itself as a narrative game, for instance?

It defines itself as an RPG:

QuoteWHAT IS THIS BOOK?
This book takes us behind the scenes of Tenra, a “Hyper-Asian” setting of fantasy, swords, technology and magic introduced in the world guide. Th is book is a tool for you and your friends to use to create thrilling tales within the world of Tenra. It is a tabletop role-playing game: A rulebook, informational resource and play guide. Th is book and some friends are all you require to play the game.

Quote from: Benoist;606154Fuck you. It's a serious question.



It's neither here nor there. I don't give a shit whether they give names to games like we do or not. My questions are still unanswered: is it what we here call a regular RPG? Does it involve narrative mechanics? Is the goal of this game to tell a story? Is there a "what is role playing" pitch in the book, and could you please quote it here? Thank you.

You can not give a shit however much you want,but facts still over ride you - the game is what the original authors define it as, not what you want it to be. If you want to rant about Storygame RPGs, then create a new one about DITV or Sorcerer, which are defined by their own authors as Storygame RPGs.  The creators define and control the conversation and the product identity, not you. And to the folks at F.E.A.R., TBZ is a Hyper-Asian fantasy TRPG. You desperatly want TBZ's round peg to fit into your chamber of square hole ammunition.

Also, any storygame RPG elements in TBZ aren't terribly different from what was found in games like MSH:RPG or anything that uses a luck or karma point mechanics.  Karma in TBZ is more like XP than anything else, for example.

Question answered - non sequitur, zero set.  Moving on!

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;606171You can not give a shit however much you want,but facts still over ride you - the game is what the original authors define it as, not what you want it to be. If you want to rant about Storygame RPGs, then create a new one about DITV or Sorcerer, which are defined by their own authors as Storygame RPGs.  The creators define and control the conversation and the product identity, not you. And to the folks at F.E.A.R., TBZ is a Hyper-Asian fantasy TRPG. You desperatly want TBZ's round peg to fit into your chamber of square hole ammunition.

Also, any storygame RPG elements in TBZ aren't terribly different from what was found in games like MSH:RPG or anything that uses a luck or karma point mechanics.  Karma in TBZ is more like XP than anything else, for example.

Question answered - non sequitur, zero set.  Moving on!

Well, I'll just repeat myself: FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE.

YOU do not get to redefine anything, ESPECIALLY not Role Playing Games on this board. Believe it or not, I was actually asking out of interest, to see whether it'd be worth my time to have a look at TBZ. But your fucking childish attitude regarding the role playing games versus story games divide, which is real, since these two type of games simply don't have the same object and purpose, is simply put fucking ridiculous. Thanks for being such a butthurt bitch about it, douchebag!

So you can indeed move on now, and go fuck yourself.

Quote from: Skywalker;606170It defines itself as an RPG:

Thank you. I see that now. The part where they define role playing as creating a tale and spinning a story really turns me off, however. Now that doesn't stop some RPGs using the same rhetoric to actually be traditional RPGs, like say Vampire, but that's the kind of pitch that really makes me cringe right off the bat.

Although I've just my word to back it, I'd like to say that my playing group's a very traditional one, with a strong dislike for anything "storytelly", and they are all having a lot of fun with this game. Without changing, omitting or house ruling anything.

Quote from: Benoist;606179Thank you. I see that now. The part where they define role playing as creating a tale and spinning a story really turns me off, however. Now that doesn't stop some RPGs using the same rhetoric to actually be traditional RPGs, like say Vampire, but that's the kind of pitch that really makes me cringe right off the bat.

Well, it also speaks about GM authority and the part about "unique and interesting characters, which you will role- play: You will pretend to be those characters, guiding their actions and speaking through them". Dunno if it helps. I guess that because I'm enjoying this game so much, I'd like everyone to enjoy it too.

Quote from: Frundsberg;606182Although I've just my word to back it, I'd like to say that my playing group's a very traditional one, with a strong dislike for anything "storytelly", and they are all having a lot of fun with this game. Without changing, omitting or house ruling anything.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat.  It's got loads of kewl powers, it's got sweet giant robots and mecha and cyborgs, and you can explicitly play a dude whose armor is made out of a parasitic worm or who is Vampire Hunter D.  It reminds me of RIFTS more than anything storygamey.

If Benoist doesn't think he'll like it, that's cool, because he knows he and his group, but honestly, I have no interest in fringe game design where people are more intereted in a "story" than a "character," and the only thing possibly contentious about TBZ is the karma system's determination that if you go over 108, you become a demon. And even that's functionally a power-cap, like Taint from Aberrant or Essence/Humanity in Shadowrun and Cyberpunk.

Wow, I haven't used any bad words. I must have touched a truth nerve.

The writers at F.E.A.R. don't give two farts less about the OSR or Storygame RPG movements here, and the movements certainly did not exist when the game was written (2000 or so I believe). So, again, they define what their game is, not you.  I feel that you're hanging tightly onto this because you have a thing against Kitkowski, who runs storygames.net and is a proponent of some views that differ from yours. Your view is non an analytical one, but a political one. I'm sure that taste is a strong part of this too, but I sense that you'd enjoy seeing a Kitkowski project fail because of how you feel about him and his in the larger hobby, not based on the merits or failings of TBZ. I'm not defining what TBZ is about, F.E.A.R. did that when they wrote their game.


Anyway, that doesn't matter. I'll happily buy you the PDF when the game is released if you would do a review of the game here.  $30 is worth getting your view of TBZ and seeing how a proponent of a particular view of the OSR movement and your view of traditional gaming.  You down with that, Benoist?

Quote from: Future Villain Band;606185Yeah, I'm in the same boat.  It's got loads of kewl powers, it's got sweet giant robots and mecha and cyborgs, and you can explicitly play a dude whose armor is made out of a parasitic worm or who is Vampire Hunter D.  It reminds me of RIFTS more than anything storygamey.

If Benoist doesn't think he'll like it, that's cool, because he knows he and his group, but honestly, I have no interest in fringe game design where people are more intereted in a "story" than a "character," and the only thing possibly contentious about TBZ is the karma system's determination that if you go over 108, you become a demon. And even that's functionally a power-cap, like Taint from Aberrant or Essence/Humanity in Shadowrun and Cyberpunk.

FVB, what about the scene framing mechanics and the Passion/Relationship mechanics, or the emotion matrix? I can see where some uber-hardcore Trad gaming folks might find that questionable.