Quote from: Skywalker;668392CRK's observations in another thread has me thinking about this some more.

It seems more obvious that what has happened here is that a group of new games, story-games, initially caused offense a few years ago. I think that this was a relatively well understood sentiment. However, in order to try and separate the offending group beyond any argument, it saw every RPG that led to that group or is somehow related to that group also being separated, even if its not part of that group. Much like cutting away healthy tissue around a tumour due to its proximity, rather than it being tumorous.
 
The problem is that this collateral separation is being done inconsistently as the reason for the separation doesn't readily apply to them and the sentiment is less well understood. This result will be that "RPGs" end up, for a good number of people, being a lesser subset of its previous self.

I don't think Storygames caused offense, I think a certain group of people caused offense.  This site was set up in response to that offense.  Pundit's motives are not necessarily mine.

I don't hold any antipathy towards Vince Baker.  I think he's got some fairly obvious issues, but who doesn't.  I think he is a good game designer, however, the games he designs are not those in which I can play and get what I want out of roleplaying.

You say all of narrative games get lumped in with Edwards, well anyone who doesn't prefer narrative mechanics gets lumped in with Pundit.

It seems like there is a fear of accepting a distinction between games that have OOC narrative control mechanics and those that do not because once that distinction is accepted it will...what?  Grant victory to Pundit? Lead to a Pogrom?  I don't get the fear, but it's there and leads otherwise rational posters to respond with a lot of venom to simple discussions of term definitions.

There's such a backlog of anger and vitriol around the topic it's hard to get at it without starting a war, especially since both sides have their terrorists throwing bombs.

Quote from: Piestrio;668401That's not what "retroactive" means.

They did retroactively label bands "Emo" in the late '90s, but that applies to music.

Quote from: Rum Cove;668402All The One Ring threads appear to be in the main (RPG) forum (as of this writing).

I haven't seen one for a long while and the mods stated that it was not viewed as a traditional RPG.

Quote from: Rum Cove;668395That seems to be a straightforward separation.  A player has control over their character ONLY.  Anything outside of that places it in the Other

I'd be fine with that division.

Quote from: Piestrio;668401That's not what "retroactive" means.

If The One Ring came out in 2003, it would not have been called a story-game. That's the retroactive element.

Quote from: Skywalker;668408If The One Ring came out in 2003, it would not have been called a story-game. That's the retroactive element.

That's an odd definition.

EDIT: And either way its not called a "story game" by most folks or here in Amy 'official' manner.

Quote from: Skywalker;668406I haven't seen one for a long while and the mods stated that it was not viewed as a traditional RPG.

What was the offending mechanic(s)?

I say, post anywhere and give the mods headaches in cleaning it up if they want to be juvenile about it all.

Quote from: CRKrueger;668404I don't think Storygames caused offense, I think a certain group of people caused offense.  This site was set up in response to that offense.  Pundit's motives are not necessarily mine.

I agree that designers and fans of story-games caused offence, and it is important context for what is happening here. However, I think there was a genuinely large number of RPGers who struggled and didn't like the approach story-games take as well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;668404You say all of narrative games get lumped in with Edwards, well anyone who doesn't prefer narrative mechanics gets lumped in with Pundit.

I honestly don't think that is the case. But it if is, then I agree that its wrong.

Quote from: CRKrueger;668404It seems like there is a fear of accepting a distinction between games that have OOC narrative control mechanics and those that do not because once that distinction is accepted it will...what?  

Is Pundit accepting that distinction though? Should FATE be considered game without OOC narrative control mechanics?

As people have said, if the distinction was consistent and clear (and avoided the inflammatory language distortion), there would be much less issue. At this moment, its not.

Bring on a Simulation RPG forum, Narrative RPG forum and a Tactical RPG forum.

Quote from: Piestrio;668396Such as?

Car wars is the first example to come to mind.

Quote from: Rum Cove;668411What was the offending mechanic(s)?

I honestly don't know. I am guessing the way the asymmetrical tactical elements in the combat system engage the player on some level or, maybe, the trait system.

Quote from: TristramEvans;668413Car wars is the first example to come to mind.

Car wars is an RPG?

Car wars is a story game?

What?

Quote from: Andy Day;668265Good day,

I'm new to this forum. Since arrival I have heard the use of the term "storytelling game," often preceded and followed by colorful adjectives. What exactly is a "storytelling game?" And why is it so disliked herein?

Cheers!

There are lots of mechanics in 'games'.

Some of these mechanics give the player control over the environment/story. So a mechanic that lets the player introduce an NPC ally into a scene, or allows the PC to know more about the location or to find something in the locational the party find themselves.

These mechanics can be labelled 'storygame Mechanics' or 'narrative mechnics'. They are generally pretty clear an unambiguous because they alter the game world beyond the skill of the PC in character. They are in effect an Out of Character Effects.

Now the tricky bit. Lots of games use these mechanics, from character generation options that let you set allies, to hero points that let you find a clue or reroll a failure to allowing you to state what the effect of your failed skill attempt was. Some use a lot and some use very few. They have been about nearly as long as there have been RPGs.
The question is, is there a line after which an RPG becomes a StoryGame because it has a preponderance of these mechanics? The Answer is probably yes but where that line precisely sits is contentious and some with an almost religious aspect to some folks on this site. The concept of how much shit does there have to be in your sandwich for it to be considered a shit sandwich has been mooted. The usual answer is actually more often 'as much shit as I think is acceptable but you have to agree with me or you are a ' as opposed to 'none'.

Same is true of Tactical combat rules that push a game from RPG towards tactical skirmish territory but since the demise of 4e that has gotten less attention here and rpgs with lots of tactical combat rules were never pushed to the Othergames ghetto, though car wars would end up there because it has zero RPG mechanics at all.

Quote from: Piestrio;668416Car wars is an RPG?

Car wars is a story game?

What?

Car Wars started in 80 as a tactical mini-game supplement for rpgs about a post-apocalyptic future where players played the drivers of souped-up battle vehicles Ala Death Race 5000. The setting was later developed into an RPG by Steve Jackson games, and car wars became autoduel for a short time, getting a few GURPs-like source books before its popularity waned in the 90s. Pundit has since shunted it off to 'other games' presumably in response to me pointing out that the game was similar in respects to of&d, in that it focuses its rules on the combat elements and role playing is handled free form.

Quote from: Brad;668374So my real question is, why do I need 400 pages of rules to explain how to play "let's tell a story together"? If you're going to use that level of detail, aren't you really taking something away from the most important part of the game: the narrative aspect?

I'm not sure which game you're discussing?

Quote from: TristramEvans;668421Pundit has since shunted it off to 'other games' presumably in response to me pointing out that the game was similar in respects to of&d, in that it focuses its rules on the combat elements and role playing is handled free form.

That says more about the RPGPundit than it does the game.