Quote from: Premier;901256Other than the "Unofficial X Patch" mods, one thing I highly recommend is mods that remove levelling from magic items.

Magic item levelling is retarded and the spawn of Satan. If you're smart, adventurous or just lucky and manage to acquire one of numerous unique items relatively early on while you're still low-ish level, you get punished and get a weakened version of it, because you're not supposed to be too powerful.

It's bullshit and you should mod it out.

Or, you could actually wait until you're a guy with high level enough and only then embark on a quest to acquire the artifact(s) of power.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901541Or, you could actually wait until you're a guy with high level enough and only then embark on a quest to acquire the artifact(s) of power.

Which is ridiculous. One, if somebody like the OP is playing the game for the first time, they don't know what areas they have to studiously avoid in order to not get themselves saddled with a crippled version of the item - which is a bit of a problem in an open world game where the whole point is that you can go anywhere anytime. Two, the whole concept of "levelling with the player" is bad enough as it is. Now, you might say it's sort-of kind-of okay with monsters and generic loot, but when it affects unique artifacts, that's just retarded. To put it in p&p terms, how would you feel it your party went through White Plume Mountain only to learn that Blackrazor is now a non-soul-draining +2 sword, because the DM decided you're too low level to own the proper version?

And no, levelling is not a necessary evil. The Gothic games were perfectly good with an open gameworld withOUT bullshit "levelling with the hero" mechanics.

Quote from: Premier;901596Which is ridiculous. (...)

You're treating this game far more seriously than it deserves, bro.

I liked the sound of Jester's 'Batman' idea so I've been doing that. Staying out of the issues of the war, not picking sides, though I did join the Companions in Whiterun and am running errands for them... killing bandits and necromancers when I find them. I also did the first dragon quest and have killed 3 of those so far, mostly because I stumbled on them accidentally and, "Holy crap! Dragon!"
The look of the game is really growing on me. It's got a Runequest-ish vibe to it. Much different than looking at stills or watching someone else play it.
There's more variety to the landscape and towns that I'd thought. Loads of details... fish jumping upstream against rapids, wildlife and insects... all the various random events and people you come across.

Quote from: Premier;901596Which is ridiculous. One, if somebody like the OP is playing the game for the first time, they don't know what areas they have to studiously avoid in order to not get themselves saddled with a crippled version of the item - which is a bit of a problem in an open world game where the whole point is that you can go anywhere anytime. Two, the whole concept of "levelling with the player" is bad enough as it is. Now, you might say it's sort-of kind-of okay with monsters and generic loot, but when it affects unique artifacts, that's just retarded. To put it in p&p terms, how would you feel it your party went through White Plume Mountain only to learn that Blackrazor is now a non-soul-draining +2 sword, because the DM decided you're too low level to own the proper version?

And no, levelling is not a necessary evil. The Gothic games were perfectly good with an open gameworld withOUT bullshit "levelling with the hero" mechanics.

The "world leveling" serves no purpose at all in a video game. In a tabletop game, I can see the logic behind it, as death is a lot more final. In a video game, if you venture somewhere beyond you, then you die, go back to a save in a safer place and decide to not travel in that direction again until you have gotten a little tougher.

Morrowind was better for not having the leveling. Since then, they have been trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in videogames.

Quote from: Simlasa;901647It's got a Runequest-ish vibe to it.

I don't know if you are aware, but Ken Rolston, who was line developer for Runequest in the '90s, was the lead developer on both Morrowing and Oblivion, so it's not surprising that the Elder Scrolls series has a Runequest vibe.

And in my last post, I completely forgot to address its main point. I agree that its best to spend a little time playing before modding. I find with games like this, I often restart after a few days of play to refine my character concept anyway.

People have very different ideas of what makes for a good mod, so it is hard to simply go with other people's advice. The mods I want in a game vary from play to play as well. For example, I really like the Frostfall mod, which makes the cold a potentially deadly factor in the game. It makes journeys up mountains or up to the northern half of the map into epic journeys, but while that can be exciting, sometimes you just want to get on with the story without planning the logistics of a journey. When I played a khajit outsider who hated towns and lived mainly by hunting, having Frostfall on was awesome.

One mod that I always use is the Immersive Patrols mod. You get patrols of Imperials, Stormcloaks, Bandits, etc. that travel the roads. You'll even have opposing patrols encounter each other and fight. It makes the setting feel a lot more alive.

A friend of mine likes mods that add new lots of types of monsters and ups the frequency of them occurring. I find them a but much, especially as he uses immersive patrols as well. His game is a roiling storm of non-stop action. It's a case of different people wanting different things from the game.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901858The "world leveling" serves no purpose at all in a video game.

World leveling serves no purpose if you play linear-story games. It does, if you're playing a sandbox world and are allowed to develop quite an efficient character pretty soon. This way you don't have to leave "BEGINNER LANDS" and migrate to "MORE CHALLENGING TERRITORY" never to return. Skyrim belongs to the latter, and therefore world scalling serves its purpose, I think.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901877World leveling serves no purpose if you play linear-story games. It does, if you're playing a sandbox world and are allowed to develop quite an efficient character pretty soon. This way you don't have to leave "BEGINNER LANDS" and migrate to "MORE CHALLENGING TERRITORY" never to return. Skyrim belongs to the latter, and therefore world scalling serves its purpose, I think.

That's because either designers or players reject smooth progression curves. Everyone wants teh kewl powrz and teh lootz. If you're facing level 1 bandits as a level 1 PC, and level 10 bandits as a level 10 PC, what's the pount of leveling at all? I'd rather the sandbox have areas and challenges with distinct power levels, and very limited (if any) world leveling. When the game autosaves every time you open a door, what's the point of "shielding" the player character further with leveling?

For the record: I agree with you.

Quote from: The Butcher;901884If you're facing level 1 bandits as a level 1 PC, and level 10 bandits as a level 10 PC, what's the pount of leveling at all?

Difference in abilities. Lev 10 Bandit wielding a bow =/= 2 lev wizard + 5 lev archer + 1 lev village rapist + 2 lev warrior owning a knife, a 2-handed axe, a crossbow and 15 offensive spells.

That's the whole point of micromanagement. NPCs in cRPGs follow "straight" evolution. At lev 10 they stay what they are, only become more powerful. The player character is free to choose whatever skill set he wants, what in turn makes him extra strong against certain enemies and extra weak against other. At least in theory.

QuoteI'd rather the sandbox have areas and challenges with distinct power levels, and very limited (if any) world leveling.

I hear you.

QuoteWhen the game autosaves every time you open a door, what's the point of "shielding" the player character further with leveling?

Yo dawg, I've heard you like autosaves...



A reminder: Electronics are unreliable. Even in the 1st world countries you can expect power shortages, your PC/console exploding for no apparent reason, OS suddenly updating to Win10, drivers refusing to work and whatnot. Imagine losing 10-hours worth progress just like that...

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901905For the record: I agree with you.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901905Difference in abilities. Lev 10 Bandit wielding a bow =/= 2 lev wizard + 5 lev archer + 1 lev village rapist + 2 lev warrior owning a knife, a 2-handed axe, a crossbow and 15 offensive spells.

That's the whole point of micromanagement. NPCs in cRPGs follow "straight" evolution. At lev 10 they stay what they are, only become more powerful. The player character is free to choose whatever skill set he wants, what in turn makes him extra strong against certain enemies and extra weak against other. At least in theory.

Still, that's bullshit game design and makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective. If a bandit is as much of a threat at level 1 as it is at level 10, what's the point of leveling?

In D&D, a 10th level adventurer is more likely to storm the bandit-held abandoned castle and trounce oodles of bandits, their pet owlbear and of course the Bandit King and his lieutenants. A gang of 10th- or even 5th-level armed malcontents would probably be a scourge upon the land and a threat to the local lords.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901905I hear you.

Color me interested. Which should I try first?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901905Yo dawg, I've heard you like autosaves...

OK, that's useful, since I'm back to trying Skyrim.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901905A reminder: Electronics are unreliable. Even in the 1st world countries you can expect power shortages, your PC/console exploding for no apparent reason, OS suddenly updating to Win10, drivers refusing to work and whatnot. Imagine losing 10-hours worth progress just like that...

I can't imagine going 2 hours, let alone 10 hours, without at least one autosave in Skyrim under the defaults.

Also, living with an less than totally reliable electrical network taught me to get a no-break.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901877World leveling serves no purpose if you play linear-story games. It does, if you're playing a sandbox world and are allowed to develop quite an efficient character pretty soon. This way you don't have to leave "BEGINNER LANDS" and migrate to "MORE CHALLENGING TERRITORY" never to return. Skyrim belongs to the latter, and therefore world scalling serves its purpose, I think.

Morrowind was open world, didn't have world-leveling, and didn't have the problem you describe. A single city in Morrowind could have NPCs of widely varying deadliness. The area around that city probably has dungeons of varying difficult as well. You didn't need to abandon a region forever to find deeper challenges.

Quote from: The Butcher;901916Still, that's bullshit game design and makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective. If a bandit is as much of a threat at level 1 as it is at level 10, what's the point of leveling?

- NPCs' leveling? For the world to not become populated by local equivalent of Tarrasques only, while keeping it a bit challenging no matter where you go.
- PC's leveling? Versatility. Each time you level up, you can choose to become a little better at something, but not at all at once. Also, since certain quests/things depend on your level/skill (as in: they become available only when you're experienced enough), you kind of dictate which parts of the story become available sooner or later.

QuoteIn D&D, a 10th level adventurer is more likely to storm the bandit-held abandoned castle and trounce oodles of bandits, their pet owlbear and of course the Bandit King and his lieutenants. A gang of 10th- or even 5th-level armed malcontents would probably be a scourge upon the land and a threat to the local lords.

Skyrim features a set of procedures following blindly certain logic. This can't replace the GM, who is able to quickly adjust any aspect of the game according to players' actions and expectations. The effect will be flawed on many occasions, especially from the perspective of an old veteran of TTRPGs, like yourself.

On the other hand, Skyrim doesn't require real people to run and deliver you fun as best as it can. It also won't ever argue with you if you decide to run around butt naked, murdering people, stealing their stuff and other things you secretly wished to accomplish in real world, or even during a session, but you were afraid to do for various reasons.

Quid pro quo, I guess.

QuoteColor me interested. Which should I try first?

Definitely Avernum. Don't mind its gfx, the game is definitely worth it.

QuoteOK, that's useful, since I'm back to trying Skyrim.

These mods might pick your interest - they change the way the leveling works.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/43971/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/55291/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68571/?

QuoteI can't imagine going 2 hours, let alone 10 hours, without at least one autosave in Skyrim under the defaults.

Also, living with an less than totally reliable electrical network taught me to get a no-break.

UPSes aren't that reliable either and won't fix other things I spoke about...

Point is: Autosave is an useful feature, and if it bothers you, you can disable it at all.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901935Morrowind was open world, didn't have world-leveling, and didn't have the problem you describe. A single city in Morrowind could have NPCs of widely varying deadliness. The area around that city probably has dungeons of varying difficult as well. You didn't need to abandon a region forever to find deeper challenges.

There are no problems, merely differences in an approach.

Morrowind followed its own logic, Oblivion introduced a little different solutions, Skyrim does things in its own way. Each game delivers its own, unique experience. I don't perceive any as better than any other.

Quote from: The Butcher;901916Still, that's bullshit game design and makes no sense from a worldbuilding perspective. If a bandit is as much of a threat at level 1 as it is at level 10, what's the point of leveling?

That's an issue I always had with 'levels'. I don't want my PC to reach a point where it can't be overpowered by a large enough pack of wild dogs or ragged bandits.
In WOW it always seemed dumb to me when crossing into higher lvl territories and suddenly EVERYTHING was high level... including the farmers and local wildlife.
Something I liked in Skyrim was stumbling across a dragon, taking it down without too much trouble... but right next to it was some flying wizard guy who burst out of his tomb and ruined me... I looked him up and he's about lvl 50. If that's how the game's sandbox is arranged I like it... high and low lvl stuff intermixed, not apportioned off in demarcated 'zones'.

I should admit that the leveling is handled much better in Skyrim than it was in Oblivion. I really like Skyrim, so I don't want to come off as overly negative. Most of my bile on the issue is still left over from Oblivion.