One thing a new player should know is that people cheat in this game especially in competitive events.  People like to pretend it isn't happening but it is.  Watch out for dice shenanigans like rolling a bunch of dice near unrolled dice or picking up a pile of rolled dice so quickly you can't count the results.  If your opponent has an army you have never seen, make sure your opponent has their codex on hand.  If they don't, be suspicious.  If the tournament rules require that people have their codex (and they often do), get a judge.  Not bringing a codex while playing a little seen army like Dark Eldar or Sisters of Battle that most players aren't familiar with is a common cheating tactic and people generally suffer no consequences even if they are caught blatantly lying about their army.  I have seen a Dark Eldar player who had been playing them regularly for months get caught blatantly lying about his army's rules in the second game of a three game tournament and get away with it with no consequences at all.  He just shrugged and claimed it was a mistake even though that was obviously bullshit.  He actually told a new player that all Dark Eldar weapons are lance weapons including his basic infantry weapons.  When his second opponent was suspicious, he had coincidentally forgotten his codex. If that was an honest mistake, he's an illiterate moron.  it wasn't a mistake.  He was blatantly cheating and got caught.  Nothing happened to him either.  He went on to get second place.

Never, ever leave your miniatures unattended in a public venue.  These things are expensive and, sooner or later, they will disappear on you.  Measuring tapes and side cutters also have a way of disappearing.  Some of that may well be honest mistakes because everyone tends to have the same few brands but some of it isn't and your  $15 side cutters are gone either way.

Most players aren't like this.  Enough players are that you should keep things like this in mind.  Every hobby has bad apples, including this one.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277One thing a new player should know is that people cheat in this game especially in competitive events...

Honestly, for the first couple of years I recommend staying away from tournaments unless it's a small 'newbie' tournament with low points and restrictions (1000 point, no flyer, no super-heavies, etc).  Tournaments are honestly discouraging, because the average guy doesn't realize that a lot of tournament competitors are REALLY good and spend hours trying to get a build that counters anything.  In blind tournaments, it's not as bad.  But in smaller ones where you can change your list (rare), you're going to get flattened.  These people may be playing a 2000 point game, but they have 10,000 points of models with them.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277...If that was an honest mistake, he's an illiterate moron.  it wasn't a mistake.  He was blatantly cheating and got caught.  Nothing happened to him either.  He went on to get second place.

You say this like it's lazy and spineless judges, but in everything from 40k to even M:tG and other games there are tournament hosts that will rig it in favor of their friends.  Mainly because one of the judges wants a portion of the prize.

Having the Codex is a requirement if you're going to play against me.  I don't care if you have a reference document- but I expect to be able to see the codex and read the rule for myself.  Also, if you have the cash- buy nearly every codex you can.  Any of the free PDF's on Forge World, too.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277Never, ever leave your miniatures unattended in a public venue.  These things are expensive and, sooner or later, they will disappear on you.  Measuring tapes and side cutters also have a way of disappearing.  Some of that may well be honest mistakes because everyone tends to have the same few brands but some of it isn't and your  $15 side cutters are gone either way.

This is quite common when there's kids around, but mostly the ones around 13 years old or so.  Don't get me wrong, I don't hate kids.  I just hate being around kids in a gaming store.  Not only are they little disease farms that touch everything, but many geeks forget they've got to do 'parenting' when they go into a gaming store, and they just let the little dismounts run about and do what they want. Little kids see little plastic toys, not expensive and painstakingly painted models.  In one particular store, I watched a guy look all over for a model and after a bit- some random dude walks over with his slobbering kid crying- he hands back a wet, chewed-up Ork missing arms and all kinds of stuff and hands it back.  His response was, "My son had this, I'm sorry, but you need to keep a better eye on your stuff".  This shit.  This exact shit.

Some adult gamers will steal shit, too.  Which is quite honestly sad and pathetic- it's a fun hobby, but if you've got to steal to play it you probably need to look into a cheaper hobby.  A town near my first duty station had such a problem with stealing that the dude had to put Warhammer 40k models in cabinets behind him like it was a gun store.  Guys would come in while he was working alone, and ask questions about books in the other end of the store- and another dude would stuff the boxes into his jacket and pants.  Fortunately, the community was cool enough that he always had one 'lurker' in the store that he'd let read through books and paint models that helped him keep an eye on the place (this was the store where the dude stole my dice, and that 'lurker' was a lifesaver).

Quote from: yosemitemike;917277Most players aren't like this.  Enough players are that you should keep things like this in mind.  Every hobby has bad apples, including this one.

Yeah, it's not unheard of.  Most players are really cool people, and just want an honest and fun game.  Fortunately, the hobby is small enough that scumbags earn the reputation quickly.  If you see a guy no one's ever playing with, he's probably 'that guy'.  Truth be told, though- I ran into more unhinged people in my other interests to say that wargaming is a lot friendlier.

Quote from: Crüesader;917288You say this like it's lazy and spineless judges, but in everything from 40k to even M:tG and other games there are tournament hosts that will rig it in favor of their friends.  Mainly because one of the judges wants a portion of the prize.

Having the Codex is a requirement if you're going to play against me.  I don't care if you have a reference document- but I expect to be able to see the codex and read the rule for myself.  Also, if you have the cash- buy nearly every codex you can.  Any of the free PDF's on Forge World, too.

I think that any player who shows up at a tournament without his codex should simply be disqualified on the spot.  Maybe that's why they didn't want me to be a judge.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917301I think that any player who shows up at a tournament without his codex should simply be disqualified on the spot.  Maybe that's why they didn't want me to be a judge.

You're the exact guy I want to be a judge.  The rule is supposed to be 'must bring all required gaming materials'.  That includes Codex, dice, measuring tools, army list points in hard copy, templates, and models.  Even with my group, people bring their own materials.  

Call me weird, but handling other peoples' items... I've seen too many dirty neckfats in my time to feel comfortable doing this.  I dislike being sick, because it means I cannot go to work (hospital), and I lose money.  If I show up sick, I lose my job.  There's a reason I carry hand sanitizer around with me.  I've seen an entire installation get shut down and quarantined because of too many sick people (Camp Johnson/Camp Lejeune in spring 2001), and it's generally tied back to one guy that didn't wash his hands (or himself).

Quote from: Crüesader;917288(this was the store where the dude stole my dice, and that 'lurker' was a lifesaver).

definitely lurkers as you call them are a good thing if they are honest in any store where you have a lot of expensive stuff laying around they can save the owner a lot of money.

Quote from: Crüesader;917288Yeah, it's not unheard of.  Most players are really cool people, and just want an honest and fun game.  Fortunately, the hobby is small enough that scumbags earn the reputation quickly.  If you see a guy no one's ever playing with, he's probably 'that guy'.  Truth be told, though- I ran into more unhinged people in my other interests to say that wargaming is a lot friendlier.

yep no mater what game you play or hobby you are in there are ass holes.

Quote from: kosmos1214;917307yep no mater what game you play or hobby you are in there are ass holes.

I've seen grown men get into fistfights over fantasy football.  Trust me, our little hobby has more 'weirdos' than outright assholes, but we've certainly got enough to notice.

Quote from: Crüesader;917303You're the exact guy I want to be a judge.  The rule is supposed to be 'must bring all required gaming materials'.  That includes Codex, dice, measuring tools, army list points in hard copy, templates, and models.  Even with my group, people bring their own materials.  

I also think that people who don't have a printed army list with points cost for everything including gear options should simply be disqualified.  Fudging army lists is another very common method of cheating and very difficult to catch unless the person has a hard copy list to check.  

Fudging army lists is another common way of cheating.  One thing that always baffled me was the number of people who thought it as acceptable to bring a list that was over on points.  Why do people think it's acceptable to come to an X point tournament game with a list that has more than X points in it?  It's cheating.  People look at me like I have gone mad when I say that.  It's only 20 points over in a 1,500 point game!  That means you are just cheating a little instead of a lot.  They would look at lists, see they were over points and just go on even though the list always had multiple gear options that could be just crossed out to make it under points.  I never understood it.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917314I also think that people who don't have a printed army list with points cost for everything including gear options should simply be disqualified.  Fudging army lists is another very common method of cheating and very difficult to catch unless the person has a hard copy list to check.  

Fudging army lists is another common way of cheating.  One thing that always baffled me was the number of people who thought it as acceptable to bring a list that was over on points.  Why do people think it's acceptable to come to an X point tournament game with a list that has more than X points in it?  It's cheating.  People look at me like I have gone mad when I say that.  It's only 20 points over in a 1,500 point game!  That means you are just cheating a little instead of a lot.  They would look at lists, see they were over points and just go on even though the list always had multiple gear options that could be just crossed out to make it under points.  I never understood it.

Yeah, my friend is writing a program for this, though whether he finishes it or not is anyone's guess.  I always check mine, and use a spreadsheet with formulas for it.  I have a binder for my stuff with one of those little calculators in the inside cover, and I always offer to let the player check my numbers through the codex if he wants.  I'm usually always under points- the closest I've gotten is 4 away from the total.  Most of the time it's 5 points, sometimes 10 because I'm an idiot that forgets Meltabombs exist.  

For a friendly game, I can tolerate like 5 points over.  It's a casual game, and I don't mind.  If playing for a tournament, yeah- the points total is there for a second.  

If the guy miscalculated, I can see that.  But blatantly making a list that's over points cost is cheating at worst, disrespecting other players at best.  At the last ones I went to, it would be just like you said- there'd be a couple of guys scratching out things on their list.  

I also dislike the 'counts as' rule sometimes.  My buddy that's making the list said one guy's sergeant weargear went from Combi-Melta to Combi-Plas in one turn.  There's a reason that the rule 'must be represented on the model' is there.  It's to show that you have what you're claiming he has, and give a reference.

(shrug) I only ever game with friends.That's true of wargames as well as RPGs. Friends first, gaming comes second. Hence no horror stories, no worries about cheating, just sit around, drink a few beers, and have fun pushing about toy soldiers.

If you want gaming tournament horror stories, Magic wins hands down. Damn, I've heard crazy stories - especially back in the day when prices for rares were outrageous.

If people want to cheat, they will. Another benefit of having a home crew or a FLGS regulars who you trust. But in all my years of playing Warhammer, I've mostly encountered honest players who just want to have fun. Some can get rules wanky (like RPGers), but in general, its been a good experience.

Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

Yeah.  There's a dude I knew that played for years (according to him).  He was constantly confusing 'Fearless' with 'And The Shall Know No Fear'.  He honestly thought they were the same thing.  I didn't get pissy with him, I just sat down and showed it to him.  Come to find out, it wasn't his misinterpretation... it was another player that he learned that from.  Whether the other player was lying or just didn't read the rules is beyond me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

I take absurdity to a whole new level and have a second sheet for individual unit point cost and page # of the Codex.  I didn't make it for this exact purpose, but I realized it was useful for this.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864If you want gaming tournament horror stories, Magic wins hands down. Damn, I've heard crazy stories - especially back in the day when prices for rares were outrageous.

The more money there is at stake, the more people will try to cheat.  There's much more money at stake in Magic than in 40k.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864Also, honest mistakes do happen. Not everybody has perfect reading comprehension, and I've seen plenty of rules that should have been written with more clarity, or should have taken into account other conflicting rules.

Some players have a track record of regularly making mistakes that are always in their favor.  I have seen a guy interpret a rule one way in one game and then the opposite way in the next game in the same tournament depending on what benefited him.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917864But yeah, always bring the current Codex for your army with a detailed printout of your figs and points. It's basic etiquette. Yet again, the magical rule of "don't be a douche nozzle" solves 99% of gaming problems.

Too bad douche nozzles don't care about that rule.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917881Some players have a track record of regularly making mistakes that are always in their favor.  I have seen a guy interpret a rule one way in one game and then the opposite way in the next game in the same tournament depending on what benefited him.

"Fool me once, I'm mad. Fool me twice, How could you. Fool me thrice, you're officially that guy, alright?"
- JonTron

Nothing ever seems to happen to That Guy too.  A couple of us brought this to the judge's attention.  He shrugged it off as an honest mistake and did nothing.  I don't know how interpreting the same rule in two different ways in two consecutive games in a way that gives you an advantage can reasonably be called an honest mistake but there you go.

My favorite That Guy story was a That Guy at a con who had these troops that could deploy anywhere on the board so long as it wasn't within 2" of an enemy model, he would use it for HUEG RAEP in show after show.  Well the rule was that if he deployed off the board, for purposes of the game his force was considered "lost".  Well he stated his movement, that he was going to deploy directly behind his opponent's Kroot force...well, the Kroot player had enough troops, and the way Kroot work (or worked at the time) was that single models could be up to 2" from each other and still not face morale problems.

So the Kroot player deployed exactly on the table edge of his side, which means that the guy with the teleporting unit by default had to deploy off the board, and thus lost.  The GW game judges were quite happy as this guy had been fucking everyone left right and center with this BS in match after match, until Mr. Kroot stopped him.