Quote from: Jason Morningstar;403783You angry and/or confused guys should listen to the interview linked from the article. Julia's pretty articulate about her design goals and didn't create the game in a vacuum. And it's not like she lives on the moon; you can ask her questions directly. She's very nice and I'm sure she'd address your concerns thoughtfully.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would assume she's inarticulate, stupid or insane. I just don't think anyone thinks it's a very good idea. I absolutely do not see the attraction of playing this game in anyway shape or form. Just because it's an rpg and just because you can write an rpg about being a slave in america doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nor does that mean i'm ignorant to civil rights.

Quote from: Imperator;403908So what? If we find a regular guy that played Dogs in the Vineyard and has a blast, does that means that indie games are rad?

Clearly that guy is not regular by definition, since enjoying a roleplaying game of any sort = not ordinary person.

Huh, I read the article referred to in the OP twice, and didn't find one mention of the term indie.

You know what I think is in bad taste? A legitimate article about trivializing racial issues being leveraged and misrepresented in a trivial war against indie games. Really.

As a bit of a tangent, I was forced to participate in a similar game without my consent when I was in grade school thanks to a self righteous black teacher. Soon after I came to the conclusion that the worst bullies justify their abuse based on the victims of the past (and sometimes the color of their skin), and that the people in the same situation you are will do more to hold you back than your oppressors. Also, I was getting enough crap for simply being in the 'special education' class. Last thing I needed was a lesson on oppression.

There's an interview with Julia here about the game, with a link to a lengthy actual play session and presentation in an educational situation.

Quote from: jhkim;403901OK, so I get that you're offended by the game - but I'm not quite sure I get what it is that is offending.  If I could, I have a few questions for you or others - especially since I've been trying to find players for the game.  

First, are you saying that you would be fine with play slaves in antebellum America if I were using something like GURPS or Savage Worlds?  

Second, would it be just as offensive if it were a variant of the same system in a different setting - like playing slaves in ancient Rome such as Spartacus?

Did I miss the answers to these?

John, Steal Away Jordan doesn't need to be played as straight-up history. You can easily run it like a Charles W. Chesnutt story, with magic and fantastic elements. I know Julia's done this at conventions with more success than a straight historical setting. Adding a little distance might encourage people to try it out.

From that article, the author says.

QuoteI gave a short dress rehearsal presentation and demo in a Computer Science seminar class on operating systems. I opened by asking, "When you think of slave narratives, what comes to mind." A young man, a Morehouse student, sheepishly raised his hand. "Suffering, punishment, pain�." He said. Another student offered similarly dismal words.

"No one thinks, 'hero'?" I asked. The students replied with blank stares. I'll show 'em! I thought.

Yeah, I don't think hero either. Slavery was a monstrous system, and we are still dealing with the repercussions here in America today. Folks my age are but one generation removed from people who lived through segregation. Look at the nasty things people say about Obama. There just isn't enough distance from the past to make this era into an adventure game.

Look, I can see how some folks might play this and think they are gaining some insight into being a slave. It sounds rightfully presumptious to most of us, though. Is the GM going to use racial slurs when playing NPC's? To do the era justice he would have to, I mean if you want to portray the institution of slavery as it actually was. That would only be slightly dehumanising. And really it's such a small thing compared to the imaginary whippings and hobblings the PCs could recieve. Oh and having their dependant NPC's sold off. Sorry Johnny, your daughter got sold, you'll have to buy that disad off with XP...

Slavery in ancient Rome as a campaign premise? Sure. If theres gladitorial fights, I'm in. The difference is I don't know anyone whose parents or grandparents had a firehose turned on them by Romans for eating at the wrong restaurant. Context is everything.

And in truth, I'm not particularly offended by this game. But I think it is quite pretentious, and somewhat in bad taste. If you can't see why this game might be offensive to some, then I don't think playing it is really going to help you understand slavery in America much less the black experience.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;403919I don't think anyone in their right mind would assume she's inarticulate, stupid or insane. I just don't think anyone thinks it's a very good idea. I absolutely do not see the attraction of playing this game in anyway shape or form. Just because it's an rpg and just because you can write an rpg about being a slave in america doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nor does that mean i'm ignorant to civil rights.

I'm with GW on this one. I don't even care that a "normal guy" didn't like it. I just know I think it sounds mind-numbingly boring and perhaps even irritating. Don't know about anyone else, but I know I don't need somebody preaching at me in some game... well, about anything really. I'm perfectly capable of learning anything I want to know about slavery or any other historical topic by researching and reading about it.

Quote from: SgtSpaceWizard;403961Yeah, I don't think hero either. Slavery was a monstrous system, and we are still dealing with the repercussions here in America today. Folks my age are but one generation removed from people who lived through segregation. Look at the nasty things people say about Obama. There just isn't enough distance from the past to make this era into an adventure game.

Look, I can see how some folks might play this and think they are gaining some insight into being a slave. It sounds rightfully presumptious to most of us, though. Is the GM going to use racial slurs when playing NPC's? To do the era justice he would have to, I mean if you want to portray the institution of slavery as it actually was. That would only be slightly dehumanising. And really it's such a small thing compared to the imaginary whippings and hobblings the PCs could recieve. Oh and having their dependant NPC's sold off. Sorry Johnny, your daughter got sold, you'll have to buy that disad off with XP...

Slavery in ancient Rome as a campaign premise? Sure. If theres gladitorial fights, I'm in. The difference is I don't know anyone whose parents or grandparents had a firehose turned on them by Romans for eating at the wrong restaurant. Context is everything.

And in truth, I'm not particularly offended by this game. But I think it is quite pretentious, and somewhat in bad taste. If you can't see why this game might be offensive to some, then I don't think playing it is really going to help you understand slavery in America much less the black experience.

Great post.  :hatsoff:

Quote from: jhkim;403901OK, so I get that you're offended by the game

I'm not particularly offended by the game, i'm offended by the choices behind its design. Come on John, i haven't been shy in coming forward about what i think of certain Forge system matters proponents (this answer can go for Jason too).

Quote- but I'm not quite sure I get what it is that is offending.

What else can you run using this game? Anything other than slavery campaigns, where things such as Worth are relevant to your feelings of wretchedness? Thought not.

QuoteFirst, are you saying that you would be fine with play slaves in antebellum America if I were using something like GURPS or Savage Worlds?  

Knock yourself out if that's your thing. Then again those systems can be used for a million different things.

QuoteSecond, would it be just as offensive if it were a variant of the same system in a different setting - like playing slaves in ancient Rome such as Spartacus?

If you want misery tourism, it doesn't matter what clothes you dress it in.

Hey, I have an anecdote as possibly the only person who has read Steal Away Jordan in this thread and certainly the only person who has played it.

I feel like I've got a good handle on American slavery as a social and economic system, I've read and appreciated slave narratives and abolitionist writings and Shelby Foote and Charles Chesnutt. One time I had a conversation about the Klan with Morrris Dees. I'm an educated guy with a strong interest in history.

So I sit down to play, and we're making characters. I decide I'll play a slave. "My guy's name is Bill..." I say, and the GM interrupts me.

"That's not how it works," he says, "you don't pick a name. I do. Your guy's name is Caesar."

This is, like, the first rule in the game, the first really basic lesson in institutional slavery. It was actively dehumanizing, and I felt it like a kick in the ribs. On an intellectual level I knew that's how it worked, of course I'd read all about it, but this wasn't reading, and in that moment everything I'd read and thought about slavery took on a different color.

So that was cool.

Right, but is it fun, or something you would consider a "game", because it seems more like an educational tool or a performance-based exercise.

I'm honestly curious.  I carry no judgments about the game other than I don't think it interests me much, or would be something I would enjoy.

I don't get what's fun about it, honestly.

That was beautiful. *sniffle*

Are you lost, Jason?

Yeah, I hear you guys. Fun is a loaded term. It's like "indie game" in that way - it means eight different things and is prone to semantic misundertandings.

I think a lot of the rage about "misery tourism" stems from conflicting definitions of fun.

1. Kicking a mutant's ass and acquiring a black ray pistol is definitely one kind of fun, and I fully support it.

2. Creating a beautiful story that feels tragic and real is another kind of fun, and I am also all over that.

So when I say Grey Ranks is fun, anybody using definition one becomes enraged and anybody using definition two is like, "right on". This is why I avoid that word unless the context is crystal clear.

You'd think Steal Away Jordan was all definition two fun, but when I played it there was a good dose of definition one as well. The game has a brilliant adversarial component where the players develop an agenda of their own in secret, and the GM is not privy to it. Our agenda was to ruin a particularly cruel overseer, and we engineered not only his downfall, but a proper ass-beating for him as well. We were lucky and took a lot of dreadful risks but we made it happen, and I think as players we were really glad to have a little wish-fulfillment revenge in our story.

EDIT: One Horse Town, you really need to spell it out for me. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;403980EDIT: One Horse Town, you really need to spell it out for me. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

This isn't storygames or the forge, mate.

Now, don't get me wrong, without dissenting views things turn into a circlejerk (like you find at storygames and the forge), but you do know why this board was set up don't you? It was set up to be somewhere away from forge and theory evangelising that seemed to have taken over nearly every other board out there. Pundit's few rules mean that anyone can come here and say what they want (unlike storygames and the forge), but really, i wonder why folk continue to come here from the less free (storygames and the forge) sites when they know full well what the purpose of this board is and the main slant of the participants.

Dunno what my point is now i've written that out, except it would be nice to have one place where we can talk about the shit we want to talk about without true-believers coming out of the woodwork to tell us we're wrong.


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