So I'm reading through the so-called "White Box" edition of D&D. This thing is totally crazy. The authors seem to be completely obsessed with taking control of the game world away from the GM. The entire game is built around this ridiculously rigid game structure: You will make a wandering monster check every turn. One turn out of every hour requires a rest. Even something like the reactions the NPCs have to the PCs is controlled through a mechanic! Ditto for running away from monsters.

He's a message for Messrs. Gygax and Arneson: We are tired of these old non-solutions for non-problems that come out of sloppy Forge-thinking. Scared of how RPGs are currently played? They somehow don't work for YOU, even though they work for millions? Got upset once because your GM suddenly surprised you with a non-standard wandering monster check? You think the only way to solve these problems is to castrate the GM?

Wrong!

Ideologically, it makes no sense: it's a desire to allow game-designers to take away control of RPGs from Game-Masters, it's the typical mentality of someone who now thinks of themselves as the "gamemaster to the world" and doesn't want lesser geniuses messing up the perfection of their own system or setting.

Stop trying to put shackles on the GM with these kinds of explicit game structures, folks. Or at least stop trying to claim that your dirty story game is an RPG. Your lies and deceit are transparent to all true-thinkers.

Thankyou for your productive and interesting contribution to this forum which will enhance the tenor of discussion here immeasurably.

If you would actually like to talk about story games Justin, rather than act out, I find carry a game about war to be a good one.  You can make the new thread yourself, even.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;665365So I'm reading through the so-called "White Box" edition of D&D. This thing is totally crazy. The authors seem to be completely obsessed with taking control of the game world away from the GM. The entire game is built around this ridiculously rigid game structure: You will make a wandering monster check every turn. One turn out of every hour requires a rest. Even something like the reactions the NPCs have to the PCs is controlled through a mechanic! Ditto for running away from monsters.

He's a message for Messrs. Gygax and Arneson: We are tired of these old non-solutions for non-problems that come out of sloppy Forge-thinking. Scared of how RPGs are currently played? They somehow don't work for YOU, even though they work for millions? Got upset once because your GM suddenly surprised you with a non-standard wandering monster check? You think the only way to solve these problems is to castrate the GM?

Wrong!

Ideologically, it makes no sense: it's a desire to allow game-designers to take away control of RPGs from Game-Masters, it's the typical mentality of someone who now thinks of themselves as the "gamemaster to the world" and doesn't want lesser geniuses messing up the perfection of their own system or setting.

Stop trying to put shackles on the GM with these kinds of explicit game structures, folks. Or at least stop trying to claim that your dirty story game is an RPG. Your lies and deceit are transparent to all true-thinkers.

While I admire the attempt to try and generate a more holistic view of RPGs, I do think that there can be important distinctions between games in terms of how they play.  Now, like many such definitions, there is a real issue with grey cases.  It can also be the case that the way that particular players and groups interact with the rules can be as important as the rules themselves.

OD&D was a loosely developed dungeon exploration game.  But people took it in all sorts of directions.  In some ways, the lack of rules and the modularity of the system led to a lot of amateur game design that gave each table a distinctive feel.  

I don't think story game is a good use of pejorative.  I have tried story games and I didn't dislike them but I prefer traditional RPGs.   But, even within the traditional RPG sphere, I have preferences for some systems over others because they make certain styles of play easier or more difficult.  

In fact, the within genre differences can be larger than between genre.  It could be perfectly possible for a game of Dungeon World to play closer to OD&D than a game of 4th edition D&D does.

Quote from: Votan;665368While I admire the attempt to try and generate a more holistic view of RPGs, I do think that there can be important distinctions between games in terms of how they play.  Now, like many such definitions, there is a real issue with grey cases.  It can also be the case that the way that particular players and groups interact with the rules can be as important as the rules themselves.

OD&D was a loosely developed dungeon exploration game.  But people took it in all sorts of directions.  In some ways, the lack of rules and the modularity of the system led to a lot of amateur game design that gave each table a distinctive feel.  

I don't think story game is a good use of pejorative.  I have tried story games and I didn't dislike them but I prefer traditional RPGs.   But, even within the traditional RPG sphere, I have preferences for some systems over others because they make certain styles of play easier or more difficult.  

In fact, the within genre differences can be larger than between genre.  It could be perfectly possible for a game of Dungeon World to play closer to OD&D than a game of 4th edition D&D does.

I think the point is this bit  I have tried story games and I didn't dislike them but I prefer traditional RPGs could more accurately be termed I have tried games that use a varying amount of 'storygame' mechanics but I prefer 'tradditional' mechanics more.

Storygames aren't so much a thing as much as mechanical device used to resolve a gaming situation. So some mechanics hinge on a 'interacting in a shared narative space usually to replicate genre or drive the game in interesting directions'. Some games have a lot of these mechanics so can clearly be called Storygames but others have a handful of them and the rest is very much tradditional design. The question comes with where the line is drawn (or the question comes with why draw a line and what fucking difference does it make anyway but I digress).  Now where that line sits is very much a matter of personal opinion.

But we have had this argument so many hundreds of times ...... YAWN

A reasonable trolling attempt but should have talked more about the things in game that are there just to soak up issues generated in other parts of the game and so break immersion. HP mechanism leads to surplus of healing potions and miracluous priests but peasantry still living in disease ridden poverty, etc... clearly storygame mechanisms to try and emulate genre at expense of creating a truly immersive game world.

Quote from: jibbajibba;665373HP mechanism leads to surplus of healing potions and miracluous priests but peasantry still living in disease ridden poverty, etc... clearly storygame mechanisms to try and emulate genre at expense of creating a truly immersive game world.

Not to mention the three act structure they stuff down your throat with the leveling and "world" mechanics. Dungeon to hexcrawl to land ownership. It's transparent Forge-think to force that kind of progression onto every single game.

Sometimes, I really miss the glory days of Usenet, when the fish were so thick in the water, they'd jump in the boat and club themselves to death with an oar. And the trolls really had some spirit!

I'll give that a 0.5 on the Troll-O-Meter.

Prolix.
Not enough bile.
See me after class.

Cheers!

I also hear it is rife with dissociated mechanics of various kinds.

Good concept, meh thread, lukewarm comments. Mine included.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;665365So I'm reading through the so-called "White Box" edition of D&D. This thing is totally crazy. The authors seem to be completely obsessed with taking control of the game world away from the GM. The entire game is built around this ridiculously rigid game structure: You will make a wandering monster check every turn. One turn out of every hour requires a rest. Even something like the reactions the NPCs have to the PCs is controlled through a mechanic! Ditto for running away from monsters.

He's a message for Messrs. Gygax and Arneson: We are tired of these old non-solutions for non-problems that come out of sloppy Forge-thinking. Scared of how RPGs are currently played? They somehow don't work for YOU, even though they work for millions? Got upset once because your GM suddenly surprised you with a non-standard wandering monster check? You think the only way to solve these problems is to castrate the GM?

Wrong!

Ideologically, it makes no sense: it's a desire to allow game-designers to take away control of RPGs from Game-Masters, it's the typical mentality of someone who now thinks of themselves as the "gamemaster to the world" and doesn't want lesser geniuses messing up the perfection of their own system or setting.

Stop trying to put shackles on the GM with these kinds of explicit game structures, folks. Or at least stop trying to claim that your dirty story game is an RPG. Your lies and deceit are transparent to all true-thinkers.

I tend to view rules as tools for the gm to use as they see fit, not shackles.

Butthurt level is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!

You all should just allow Justin & Pundit to talk it out. It'd be like an Ouroborous of assholishness.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;665365So I'm reading through the so-called "White Box" edition of D&D. This thing is totally crazy. The authors seem to be completely obsessed with taking control of the game world away from the GM. The entire game is built around this ridiculously rigid game structure: You will make a wandering monster check every turn. One turn out of every hour requires a rest. Even something like the reactions the NPCs have to the PCs is controlled through a mechanic! Ditto for running away from monsters.

He's a message for Messrs. Gygax and Arneson: We are tired of these old non-solutions for non-problems that come out of sloppy Forge-thinking. Scared of how RPGs are currently played? They somehow don't work for YOU, even though they work for millions? Got upset once because your GM suddenly surprised you with a non-standard wandering monster check? You think the only way to solve these problems is to castrate the GM?

Wrong!

Ideologically, it makes no sense: it's a desire to allow game-designers to take away control of RPGs from Game-Masters, it's the typical mentality of someone who now thinks of themselves as the "gamemaster to the world" and doesn't want lesser geniuses messing up the perfection of their own system or setting.

Stop trying to put shackles on the GM with these kinds of explicit game structures, folks. Or at least stop trying to claim that your dirty story game is an RPG. Your lies and deceit are transparent to all true-thinkers.

See what happens when we post while drunk children.

I didn't LOL, but I did chuckle a little.