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Neverwinter Nights Enhanced Edition

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Zelen:

--- Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2021, 02:19:44 PM ---Also notable is that NWN's original campaign plot was so hackneyed you'd have to be a moron to not see what was coming.

I mean, really, was anyone NOT surprised by the big reveal near the end of Act 1? Really? You couldn't tell 15 minutes in which NPC was going to stab you in the back?

BG and BG2 had MUCH better writing by comparison.

--- End quote ---

Definitely agree on the writing. NWN was so predictable that I couldn't even stand playing through the main campaign. Supposedly the expansions were better, but I always saw the product as the toolset moreso than the game.

At the same time the BG games were (IMO) unfairly difficult, sprawling to the point of losing focus, and generally not very good as videogames.

TheSHEEEP:

--- Quote from: Zelen on November 30, 2021, 05:32:00 PM ---Definitely agree on the writing. NWN was so predictable that I couldn't even stand playing through the main campaign. Supposedly the expansions were better, but I always saw the product as the toolset moreso than the game.
--- End quote ---
The funny thing is that NWN2 followed that line.
The main campaign was even WORSE than NWN1's campaign writing-wise - not so much in predictability (which isn't something I mind, I don't need video game stories to surprise me) but the general quality was just terrible, pure cringe as you'd say nowadays.
But both the expansions were so much better than the OC it would be a shame to miss out on them. Especially Mask Of The Betrayer can still be considered one of the best written RPGs.


--- Quote from: Zelen on November 30, 2021, 05:32:00 PM ---At the same time the BG games were (IMO) unfairly difficult, sprawling to the point of losing focus, and generally not very good as videogames.

--- End quote ---
They were open world games (in a sense), so you could decide yourself what to tackle when. That's not losing focus, that's giving the player a choice of what to do instead of just being linear.
Other than the first few hours of BG1, I don't really know what you're talking about with unfairly difficult - sure, early level AD&D is a clusterfuck, one bad roll and you're dead more or less. The kobold mines in BG1 are a reload nightmare.
But once you got a few levels under your belt, you are in control of winning or losing a battle, though you do need to learn the systems, how to use them and how to prepare for encounters of certain kinds (e.g. protect from loss of levels when facing vampires, from turning into stone when facing basilisks, etc.). Demanding? Maybe. But certainly not unfair.

I found both NWNs a lot more unfair - since you are NOT in control, due to the braindead AI companions getting themselves and/or you killed all the time.
"Sure, I'll go stand right next to this group of melee enemies!", said the archer companion two rounds before dying to attacks of opportunity. *facepalm*

Zelen:

--- Quote from: TheSHEEEP on December 01, 2021, 02:51:04 AM ---They were open world games (in a sense), so you could decide yourself what to tackle when. That's not losing focus, that's giving the player a choice of what to do instead of just being linear.
Other than the first few hours of BG1, I don't really know what you're talking about with unfairly difficult - sure, early level AD&D is a clusterfuck, one bad roll and you're dead more or less. The kobold mines in BG1 are a reload nightmare.
But once you got a few levels under your belt, you are in control of winning or losing a battle, though you do need to learn the systems, how to use them and how to prepare for encounters of certain kinds (e.g. protect from loss of levels when facing vampires, from turning into stone when facing basilisks, etc.). Demanding? Maybe. But certainly not unfair.

I found both NWNs a lot more unfair - since you are NOT in control, due to the braindead AI companions getting themselves and/or you killed all the time.
"Sure, I'll go stand right next to this group of melee enemies!", said the archer companion two rounds before dying to attacks of opportunity. *facepalm*

--- End quote ---

YMMV. It's been more than a decade since I played the games but I have distinct memories of dying scores of times in the early game, from the very first encounter you have outside Candlekeep and many, many times in events you just wander into while exploring. It might be (somewhat) authentic to the AD&D experience to die in random encounters that pop up, but ultimately I don't care about the authenticity of the experience or accuracy of the game rules when that detracts from progressing through game/story content.

By the time I got to the Kobold Mines I'd already used a character trainer to max out stats, and even then the game was hard, and this was when I was young enough that I would spend countless hours grinding out Nintendo-hard games.

TheSHEEEP:

--- Quote from: Zelen on December 03, 2021, 12:01:23 AM ---YMMV. It's been more than a decade since I played the games but I have distinct memories of dying scores of times in the early game, from the very first encounter you have outside Candlekeep and many, many times in events you just wander into while exploring. It might be (somewhat) authentic to the AD&D experience to die in random encounters that pop up, but ultimately I don't care about the authenticity of the experience or accuracy of the game rules when that detracts from progressing through game/story content.
--- End quote ---
That's the early-game DnD experience I was talking about. Yes, it sucks. And is a very valid criticism for ALL editions of D&D as well as by-the-books implementations of it.
But after that, it sounds to me like you just wanted to proceed through content without being challenged in the way these games are challenging you.

NWN got around the early game DnD experience simply by increasing character HP. A character that would have died by-the-rules through a critical hit due to having only 6hp would survive in NWN due to the flat hp bonus each character is given.
A crude solution, but it does its job.


--- Quote from: Zelen on December 03, 2021, 12:01:23 AM ---By the time I got to the Kobold Mines I'd already used a character trainer to max out stats, and even then the game was hard, and this was when I was young enough that I would spend countless hours grinding out Nintendo-hard games.

--- End quote ---
That's because they are different kinds of difficult. Aimed at very different mindsets.
"Nintendo-hard games" (I like the naming!) really require tenacity and physical player skill (reflexes, mostly). You can stubbornly approach a situation in the same manner you did the last 10 times and you will eventually succeed, simply because your reflexes and mastery of game controls have improved. In a way, that also requires patience.
I've been there and done that, too.
Nowadays, I loathe games that test my patience, couldn't play games like that anymore. I lack the patience to git gud in a game's physical controls.

In tactical/strategy games (especially the RPG variant), tenacity and physical player skill are practically useless. You cannot grind these games. Patience won't get you very far, either.
Instead, you need to understand the system, the encounter situation, play tactically and with a cool head. It's much more cerebral. Every encounter has at least one solution (usually much more), it's a bit puzzle-like in that sense. Requiring understanding more than patience (though I guess you could blindly go through different approaches until one works).
Approach the same situation in the same manner and you will just die again, no matter how often you do it.
Undoubtedly leading to frustration eventually - but that's not the game's fault, and it's definitely not unfair.

In your example, the fact that you boosted your stats and you STILL had a very hard time is very telling: It wasn't the stats that were the problem, it was your approach.
Again, been there, done that. Pretty sure I went through the game with a bunch of "illegally" buffed characters as well when I was 13 or 14 or so. What was the name of that tool? BGKeeper or something like that?  ;D
But eventually I opted for the intended approach and that stuck with me since  ;)

behayos:
This game will not be suitable for everyone. Nevertheless, I want to stress: this game is one of a kind. It's almost the only RPG that offers to create its own RPG campaigns, playable solo / multi with or without a game master.

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