A good GM and group can make almost anything work (Exalted 2ed. I'm looking at you. Again.) but I do feel the MHRP has some issues. Though as I said up thread some of it is more in the writing than the mechanics which is presented from a standpoint of familiarity both with Cortex but with narrative gaming overall. Its a fun game though, despite not being exactly my cuppa.

Quote from: Nexus;775551What are the reasons, out of curiosity?

The competition between GM and players in combat. MHR differs from many RPGs in that it creates tension in combat by setting a level playing field for the GM and players to compete on. Admittedly, it succeeds in this aim and I found the combat to be wonderfully tense. However, as GM, I didn't like being forced to take an adversarial position to the players in combat all the time.

Quote from: Skywalker;776297The competition between GM and players in combat. MHR differs from many RPGs in that it creates tension in combat by setting a level playing field for the GM and players to compete on. Admittedly, it succeeds in this aim and I found the combat to be wonderfully tense. However, as GM, I didn't like being forced to take an adversarial position to the players in combat all the time.

Thanks and I can certainly understand that. It doesn't help that some of the SFF can be down right abusive for Watcher character if you game them.

Quote from: Nexus;776310Thanks and I can certainly understand that. It doesn't help that some of the SFF can be down right abusive for Watcher character if you game them.

Its a cool concept and it certainly works. I just don't like how enforced it is in MHR.

The same level playing field concept is used for good effect in D&D4e, where it feels less about competition and more about challenge as the GM is able to move from being an adversary when it makes sense to do so.

Quote from: daniel_ream;776089Can you elaborate on this?  My experience has been that the system self-balances in play (which was the design goal).  What SFX did you find "unbalanced"?

My memory of this isn't great, because it was back when it first came out that we played. The only example I can remember clearly in my head is "Counter" - the SFX seemed like it got a lot more mileage than the rest.

Just to be clear, I am not much for game balance. Character optimisation is not the fun thing for me. I hate hearing the words 'trap option'. Just about any inequity can be an opportunity for great roleplaying.

However, in the case of Marvel Heroic my players were noting inequalities across the table that made them feel like they'd made the 'wrong choice' when they created their character. These aren't normally people concerned with fiddling bits, either, which made me think something must be going wrong. The deeper I looked into the system - again, at the time, and I didn't retain it all - the less it seemed to function. I saw what essentially amounted to tiers of SFX, some distinctly more applicable to a comic book setting, beyond what could be accommodated by an interesting character or good GMing. All in all it made my players feel like the dice being thrown around were even more arbitrary.

It wasn't my only problem with the game, but it was certainly one of the more pronounced ones. There were also things I really liked about the game, but ultimately the hassle of trying to re-balance it at the table was too great, and I gave up.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;776478My memory of this isn't great, because it was back when it first came out that we played. The only example I can remember clearly in my head is "Counter" - the SFX seemed like it got a lot more mileage than the rest.

Counterattack? Its a powerful SFX but pretty rare and almost always limited in its operation (energy based attacks, edged/blunt attacks) unless you are someone like the Human Torch.

MHR is not designed as a balanced point buy system. It relies on the players to give use the mechanics to give effect to their ideas for the PC, rather than just max out their power level.

Quote from: Skywalker;776716Counterattack? Its a powerful SFX but pretty rare and almost always limited in its operation (energy based attacks, edged/blunt attacks) unless you are someone like the Human Torch.

I've found that there are two things that most people who complain about balance in MHR tend to miss.

• The fiction comes first.  Your datafile does not tell you what your superpowers can do; your character description does.  MHR doesn't do anywhere near a good enough job of calling this out. You only get to use your SFX if that makes sense in the fiction.  Counterattack as written only works against a specific damage type, and only if the superpower as described would allow it.  The Human Torch doesn't get to use Counterattack against bullets.
• The majority of SFX can be duplicated with Plot Points, and Plot Points are easy to come by.  Anything one player can do with SFX, another player or NPC can do with Plot Points, usually.  Anyone can Counterattack by spending a Plot Point on a successful reaction roll., and they can counter any kind of attack as long as they can fudge a good reason.  You might need a second plot point to add in a third die to guarantee that success.