Decent games, but like J Arcane mentioned, a little too linear for my tastes.  GTA really spolied me.    Plus, I don't like games where you stack moves and wait for your character to use them.  I much prefer to swing my own swords and shoot my own blasters.  

However, IMO the real value comes into play if you're running a Star Wars RPG.  The games have tons of ideas, storylines, and NPCs that can be integrated into any Star Wars campaign just by filing off some serial numbers.  Not only that, the graphics format helps you visualize the Star Wars universe better, so when you're describing new worlds, buildings, technology, events, etc. you have a solid image in your mind of how you want it to look.  

If you're running a Star Wars campaign and/or have time to kill and you're a Star Wars fan, I think both games are definitely worth the time.  

Pete

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;332143I think Oblivion, along with Fallout 2 and 3 are the only games Ive ever seen do a good job telling a story AND being sandboxes.

Having now finished KOTOR, I thought it told a good story and I liked quite a few of the characters. The gameplay is the most important part to me though and that was very nicely done.

I also like the fact that it feels very much like playing Baldur's Gate, just with better graphics and some tweaks that I like a lot, like auto-pausing at the start of combat.

While not nit picking there are some other games that I've played that have done good on combining story with sandbox.  The Gothic series I found to do a good job of it, especially Gothic 3.  I felt very involved and important in the story of freeing the human race form their Orc overloards.  I also like the story that's being told in Mount & Blade.  While not a story in the traditional sense I do feel very invovled in what's going on and I'm enjoying all the squabbles and dealings between the various nations.  While not a traditional story, there is certainly something going on there that I find involving and interesting and compelling.

I agree KOTOR does feel very much like playing Baldur's Gate, all those games feels like playing Baulder's Gate.  Which is where I get bored of the story those games are telling.  Baulder's Gate was an amazing experience overall.  

Every game since then they've improved on the mechanics and game play.  However I don't feel that the story telling aspects have improved at all or the stories themselves even drastically changed.  They all progress the same, they all have similar twists and a similar ending.  Yes I know that's pretty much the same with every stock fantasy game or book.  

In each one of those games I keep expecting to see the badguy show up early, only with his name spelled backwards.

For the record, KOTOR is my favorite PC RPG of all time. I liked KOTOR II except for the craptastic ending. Some people are working on a massive mod that is supposed to improve and finish the game but there hasn't been an update in several months.

One of the challenges in replay (particularly the first game) is to go in a different order and use different combinations of characters. The light side game is more satisfying, in my opinion, because the dark side is pretty much, "How big of a sociopath can I be today," instead of the more cunning Dark Lord that you would actually want to be.

There are many memorable characters and moments. HK-47 is absolutely fantastic. I actually liked all of the characters is KOTOR, even Carth once I got over his angst.
Fun games though. I wish KOTOR III was in the same mold. What would kick ass though is a KOTOR game in the mold of Neverwinter Nights. Too bad we'll never see the day.

Quote from: PaladinCA;332615For the record, KOTOR is my favorite PC RPG of all time. I liked KOTOR II except for the craptastic ending. Some people are working on a massive mod that is supposed to improve and finish the game but there hasn't been an update in several months.

One of the challenges in replay (particularly the first game) is to go in a different order and use different combinations of characters. The light side game is more satisfying, in my opinion, because the dark side is pretty much, "How big of a sociopath can I be today," instead of the more cunning Dark Lord that you would actually want to be.

Yeah, I am playing through a second time, trying to see the Sith ending, but I'm trying to play a guy with a wicked temper, who is vengeful, but at least "thinks" he's a good guy.

And I'm close to dark side, but still just this side of neutral, because the game thinks my unwillingness to kill Zaalbar's father (someone who has saved my ass multiple times) makes me "good".

Thanks for the reviews everyone. I'm currently enjoying Fallout3 after some glowing reviews on this very forum. I'm really enjoying F3 because of the way that the story arcs are opening up faster than I can complete them. The missions themselves feel very railroady but the choice to tackle them in whatever order is is exciting.
 
The gameplay itself is casual and touristy, which is what I'm hearing about KotOR too.

If you go into KOTOR expecting it to be as sandboxy as FO3, you will be woefully disappointed.  It is very much on rails.  Even once you get your own ship and get out into space, the order you're allowed to visit planets in isn't as open as it initially appears, you WILL be killed rather capriciously if you go to a place they don't think you should be yet.  There's no auto-levelling here, and it's not a matter of "here there be dragons", as IME finding where you were and weren't supposed to go at that stage seemed entirely random.  "Rocks fall, everyone dies", or rather "Sith come, everyone dies".

To me that's a feature not a bug. Sort of like the old megadungeon thing where you have to scout before you pilliage.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332670To me that's a feature not a bug. Sort of like the old megadungeon thing where you have to scout before you pilliage.

Well, but I mean in the bad sense.  There's no scouting, just out of nowhere, you walk around a corner, and then you die because the game says that's not where you're supposed to go.

It's sort of like a GM running a hex crawl campaign, but if you go anywhere but the hex he wants you do go next, Cthulhu shows up and kills you on the spot.  There's no real freedom here, no exploration, just "you go where we want you".  

The areas themselves, are almost uniformly straight corridors.  On the rare occasion there's a branch in the path, both paths lead to the same goal, or one to a dead end.  

There is no sandbox.  That's fine, if that's what you want, but I prefer things more open, like Ultima or Fallout.

Quote from: J Arcane;332671Well, but I mean in the bad sense.  There's no scouting, just out of nowhere, you walk around a corner, and then you die because the game says that's not where you're supposed to go.

It's sort of like a GM running a hex crawl campaign, but if you go anywhere but the hex he wants you do go next, Cthulhu shows up and kills you on the spot.  There's no real freedom here, no exploration, just "you go where we want you".  

The areas themselves, are almost uniformly straight corridors.  On the rare occasion there's a branch in the path, both paths lead to the same goal, or one to a dead end.  

There is no sandbox.  That's fine, if that's what you want, but I prefer things more open, like Ultima or Fallout.

Where did that happen to you in KOTOR? Because I never experienced that in closing in on two times through.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;332678Where did that happen to you in KOTOR? Because I never experienced that in closing in on two times through.

My first playthrough ended when I got off Dantooine and headed for Tatooine, just 'cause it was in the movies, and I though, hey, that could be cool.

I land, walk out into town, then around a corner, when 6 dark Jedi easily double my level just show up suddenly and charge me, and they've all got maxed force jump so I can't even escape.  I died about 3 or 4 more times before I just said fuck it and quit.

That sounds like Fallout3.
 
There are several classes of enemies that were instant death until I got my level up.  Mirelurks used to be certain doom but they've been on my list of things that are too easy to kill for a long while now. Ghouls used to be unbeatable without the Ghoul mask but now I plink at them with pistols and hunting rifles to conserve usefull ammo. Supermutants used to be deadly. I'd cat and mouse them one by one at long range with a sniper rifle -- now I can stand toe to toe with a dozen or more as long as they don't have too many missle launchers.
 
Secondly, the level design is very simple. The closest I've seen to a maze is the Dunwitch Building. There are some tricks you can play with hacking and turrets but most branches are short dead ends or a loop so that the only real choice is to clear the level clockwise or counter clockwise. That said the DC subway seems immense and mazelike although I haven't really explored it yet so that could be the cool that's lacking in KotOR.

Quote from: J Arcane;332682My first playthrough ended when I got off Dantooine and headed for Tatooine, just 'cause it was in the movies, and I though, hey, that could be cool.

I land, walk out into town, then around a corner, when 6 dark Jedi easily double my level just show up suddenly and charge me, and they've all got maxed force jump so I can't even escape.  I died about 3 or 4 more times before I just said fuck it and quit.

Wow, I think that might be a glitch. I think there's a "hard wired" encounter with 3 dark Jedi on Tattooine, cause I had the encounter at the exact same place in two different games, but they weren't overwhelming.

I definitely don't think the game is designed that way. Course, I downloaded the game like a week ago, so I might be playing a patched version or something.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332686That sounds like Fallout3.
 
There are several classes of enemies that were instant death until I got my level up.  Mirelurks used to be certain doom but they've been on my list of things that are too easy to kill for a long while now. Ghouls used to be unbeatable without the Ghoul mask but now I plink at them with pistols and hunting rifles to conserve usefull ammo. Supermutants used to be deadly. I'd cat and mouse them one by one at long range with a sniper rifle -- now I can stand toe to toe with a dozen or more as long as they don't have too many missle launchers.
 
Secondly, the level design is very simple. The closest I've seen to a maze is the Dunwitch Building. There are some tricks you can play with hacking and turrets but most branches are short dead ends or a loop so that the only real choice is to clear the level clockwise or counter clockwise. That said the DC subway seems immense and mazelike although I haven't really explored it yet so that could be the cool that's lacking in KotOR.

KOTOR has pretty big worlds, and there are 7 worlds total, plus a small space station run by a smuggler, but the worlds themselves are pretty linear.

Basically, its a game I love for the story, learning about the characters, taking a trip through the star wars universe at ground level, and developing the most kick ass Jedi I can.

It's also a trip when you can roll with three Jedi at once, which is fun as hell as long as you dont need to hack a computer or pick a lock. Then you want a droid or a thief.

But in areas where there are hordes of beasts or droids, taking an all Jedi party is fun.

The way they track alignment is really wonky however. I didn't notice that first time through. Their notion of "good" seems much more reasonable to me than their notion of "evil".

For example, as near as I can tell, nothing about the force is evil, even powers that are labeled "dark side". Apparently when Yoda told Luke the force was never to be used for attack he was straight up LYING, because I am force lightning and draining life all the time and my alignment seems fine.

Its just their pre-set "moral choices" that cause drift. And even then, I gain Light Points in situations where I think I shouldn't, and do things I think are heinous that have no affect on my alignment.

Using the Jedi Mind trick to avoid a small docking fee I could easily pay? No problem. Sucking the life out of a sandperson to heal myself? No problem! Being mean to someone in conversation? Path to the dark side baby!

Honestly, I think KOTOR did more harm to the presentation of morality in video games than any game in the history of the genre.

Mass Effect was a breath of fresh air.  They finally got it, that you could have moral choices in a game without them being a choice between stark black and white poles that make even the most primitive comics look positively philosophical.

It's been a while since I've played KOTOR but I distinctly don't remember ever being thrown way out of my depth, ever.

I dunno about FO3 but Fallout 1 and 2 will kill you very very quickly if you jump the gun on certain locations. Or if you don't. :rotfl:

Lots and lots of reloads, Fallout 1 and 2.

Doooogmeat!