OK apologies for the random stream of consciousness:-

I put up this poll on the Big Purple:-

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?582606-Do-you-imagine-being-your-character-Do-you-kind-of-identify-with-him-Or-if-not...

What's likely to make the immersive roleplayers slightly smug is that (with 174 people having voted so far) the results can be interpreted in this way:-

...although only 49 sometimes attain deep immersion, 44 (presumably therefore 44 out of those 49) have had their most memorable experiences through deep immersion;

... whereas the corresponding ratio for storygaming is only 58 out of 84, and for tactical/strategic gaming 34 out of 51.

Now you could pick a million holes in this, but it goes some way towards supporting the Pundit's theory that immersive roleplay is "more fun". Which if you were trying to be remotely serious you would then have to qualify by saying "but by no means for everyone".

It's also weird to note the contrast that on the Big Purple only 83 out of 174 said they generally imagine being their characters during play, whereas in a simpler poll I put up for one of my local LARP groups, 100% of those voting said they do imagine being their character during play. (Votes in so far are however still in the low double figures.)

I've been working on ways to accommodate the storygaming types in immersion-focused games and (on the theory that a lot of them like GMing and in effect all the players are "mini-GMs" in some hardcore storygames) I've come up with the concept of a permanent assistant referee (deputy GM) who is actually a player but with a few bells and whistles on which should give the storygamers a little more of what they want. The whole idea is to find a way to integrate the storygamers into the game without in any way negatively affecting the immersive players' immersion. I'm not sure if it will work, but the point is if you have storygamers among your gaming buddies you're not going to want to exclude them from play just because they happen not to roleplay immersively. If anyone has any thoughts on how to get around that problem please let me know.

I think the choices in your poll are badly formulated, and I'm pretty sure that most gamers won't really know what you mean and imply by using such formulations.

And how precisely would you have worded them given that there is a strict word limit?

The "identify with" choice is broken, I've figured that much out already.

Quote from: Omnifray;467547And how precisely would you have worded them given that there is a strict word limit?

The "identify with" choice is broken, I've figured that much out already.

"I like to play first-person : I (try to) feel what my character feels, I (try to) think what my character thinks."
"I like to play third-person : My character is the narrative construct I manipulate while playing out the story."

Something to that extent.

RPGnet stinks anyway, and it's a hangout for storytelling types, forgists and storygamers so... there.

Closest I got to full immersion was at a Cam LARP.

I was playing a Ventrue of the Lancea Sanctum who, though liberal, had a real problem with vampires eating human food.

There was an Ordo Dracul visitor who knew all about this LS prejudice and was taunting them by offering them pringles and polos.

I could really feel Harry's rising irritation and it struck me that if I was the bloodsucking monster I was portraying I'd have torn his throat out Elysium or no Elysium.

Quote from: Benoist;467549"I like to play first-person : I (try to) feel what my character feels, I (try to) think what my character thinks."
"I like to play third-person : My character is the narrative construct I manipulate while playing out the story."

That's a kind of loaded language, don't you think? The choices you're offering amount to "I like to use clear, understandable language," and "I like to use specialized, opaque jargon."

Some players prefer using third person to refer to their character, that doesn't mean they view the character as a "narrative construct" to be cooly "manipulated".

Also there should be an option in that quiz for the most memorable moments being when everyone was completely on the same page, improvising freely with each other, and making something as a group that every participant was excited about.

Or how about an option for most memorable game resulting from playing a character which felt as if he were real, living figure making his own choices independent of you as a player.

Quote from: two_fishes;467560Some players prefer using third person to refer to their character, that doesn't mean they view the character as a "narrative construct" to be cooly "manipulated".

Are we going to rewind to past discussions ad nauseam forever like this? If you remember, Mark this point about the way one refers to one's character has been raised before, several times, in fact. Whether you are talking about your character as "he" or "I" has little (a bit, but little) to do with whether you are actually playing first or third person in your mind. Which is what I'm talking about. You can refer to your character as "he" and still think as him and feel like him and base your decisions as him for all intents and purposes, just like you can refer to your character as "I" and not be immersed a single tiny bit in the make-believe.

It's about the actual role playing you're engaging in in your head. It's not about you saying "my character does this" or not.

It's insane. Sometimes it's like you guys can't fucking get it. Like you've never actually experienced immersion at a role playing game table ever in your life.

PS: Sorry. Frustrated with all the shit going on with the move, boxing up stuff and all. -Ben

I was responding to your choice of language as much as anything--expressing the style of play you prefer in language that suggests "immersive" players are passionate and engaged while "storygamers" are dispassionate and clinical.

I do think you also seem to miss that even if I don't feel directly immersed with a character as if I "am" that character, I can feel a real connection to the character in my imagination. I can feel as if a character is a "real" person--acting and making decisions independently of myself.

Quote from: two_fishes;467599I do think you also seem to miss that even if I don't feel directly immersed with a character as if I "am" that character, I can feel a real connection to the character in my imagination. I can feel as if a character is a "real" person--acting and making decisions independently of myself.

I do understand this, as in the way you empathize with a character when you type a story. Trust me, I know what that feels like. That is not role playing, to me. It's storytelling, writing, composition, however you want to call it. But it is distinct from role playing and immersion, in my mind.

Quote from: Omnifray;467519The whole idea is to find a way to integrate the storygamers into the game without in any way negatively affecting the immersive players' immersion. I'm not sure if it will work....

I don't think it will ever work very well. It would be like two authors collaborating on a novel where one insists on writing in first person while the other insists on writing in third person omniscient. Two really great authors might be about to pull this off, but most would produce a barely readable mess.

Quote from: RandallS;467603I don't think it will ever work very well. It would be like two authors collaborating on a novel where one insists on writing in first person while the other insists on writing in third person omniscient. Two really great authors might be about to pull this off, but most would produce a barely readable mess.

An interesting analogy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;467592Are we going to rewind to past discussions ad nauseam forever like this? If you remember, Mark this point about the way one refers to one's character has been raised before, several times, in fact. Whether you are talking about your character as "he" or "I" has little (a bit, but little) to do with whether you are actually playing first or third person in your mind. Which is what I'm talking about. You can refer to your character as "he" and still think as him and feel like him and base your decisions as him for all intents and purposes, just like you can refer to your character as "I" and not be immersed a single tiny bit in the make-believe.

It's about the actual role playing you're engaging in in your head. It's not about you saying "my character does this" or not.

It's insane. Sometimes it's like you guys can't fucking get it. Like you've never actually experienced immersion at a role playing game table ever in your life.

PS: Sorry. Frustrated with all the shit going on with the move, boxing up stuff and all. -Ben

Well this just shows how totally inappropriate your preferred formulation would have been for RPG.net. How on Earth are the people on that site, or even the majority of people responding to some random poll on THIS site, supposed to know what YOUR definition of "playing first person" or "playing third person" is? Personally I would have assumed you did indeed mean the grammatical first or third person. You can't use jargon like that for polls that any Tom, Dick or Harry could be voting on.

I tend to play first person but in writing games I've switched to third person for references to Characters. Mainly because it makes the distinction clearer for those new to the hobby but also because of the fact I tend to be writing about dubious characters.

Quote from: Omnifray;467724Well this just shows how totally inappropriate your preferred formulation would have been for RPG.net. How on Earth are the people on that site, or even the majority of people responding to some random poll on THIS site, supposed to know what YOUR definition of "playing first person" or "playing third person" is? Personally I would have assumed you did indeed mean the grammatical first or third person. You can't use jargon like that for polls that any Tom, Dick or Harry could be voting on.

Must make you feel better about your own completely fucked up formulations. Good for you!

Quote from: Omnifray;467519I've been working on ways to accommodate the storygaming types

What if we stop trying to label people as "types" and just focus on playing the game in front of us with enthusiasm and honest effort?  You're assuming that "story-gamers" don't ever seek to immerse.  This is patently false.  Just because someone enjoys what story-games do doesn't mean they can't appreciate or want what traditional RPGs have to offer.  

I love me some FATE, and I love me some Fiasco, but I've also had some fucking awesome Call of Cthulhu games that focused more on atmosphere and RP.  I "integrate" with the group by playing the game we chose to play, the way it's supposed to be played.

If you want to make a compromise game, go ahead, but I don't think you're going to please anyone on the extreme sides of the story-game/trad RPG preference spectrum.