Quote from: Benoist;568907I could play Fiasco and enjoy it. But don't push a game of Fiasco on me when you tell me we're going to play an RPG tonight.

Quote from: Imperator;568977If I am expecting to run an RQ game and my crew asks me to do Universalis instead, I may feel a bit disappointed.

Agreed, but I don't think this has much to do with storygame or not.  If I am expecting to GM Amber Diceless and my crew asks me to do AD&D instead, I may also feel a bit disappointed.  

Within my group at least, though, we may well discuss about what sort of rules system to use for a game idea - and these may straddle what people consider to be the divide between story games and traditional RPGs.  i.e. We might talk about starting a superhero campaign, and we'd discuss about whether to use the new Marvel Heroic, or Truth & Justice, or the original Marvel Superheroes RPG.

Honestly I don't really see a difference between Dnd and say something like Fate both are about character archtypes in particular scenarios made by players, the GM or both in concert. Just so I know which like what others have said makes it fine because I know what to expect.

Quote from: Benoist;568907I don't hate storygames.

I can play them, and might like them for what they are.

What does not sit well with me at all is when (1) I expect to play a role playing game and I end up playing a story/narrative game, and (2) when story/narrative mechanics are injected in traditional role playing games I like (such as D&D, Warhammer Fantasy Role play and others), which changes them into something else I do not recognize as an RPG.

Aside of that, I just surprised the shit out of a few regulars of the RPG Site on Facebook because I just picked up Margareit Weis Productions Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Basic Game. Oh yeah. Narrative mechanics, Plot Points and everything. Heck, I surprised myself picking it up today. And I can appreciate it for what it is... whatever that is, whether storytelling game or storygame, I am not sure.

Anyway, yeah. I could play Fiasco and enjoy it. But don't push a game of Fiasco on me when you tell me we're going to play an RPG tonight.

cool story bro

I guess I'm unfamiliar with the concept of someone saying "hey, let's come round my house and do some roleplaying". If I'm going to a game, then I generally know what I'll be playing (Club session-games in the event of a GM being ill being an exception, and usually preferable to no game).

For the last few years I've went to the Student Nationals roleplaying tournament, and I do pick "indie" as my category, so I genuinely have no idea what I might be playing each day (Which leads to me and a friend making jokes for the week before the tournament that I should buy everything I see, in case I need it for my games. A deck of cards? Yep. Beads? Hell yes. Pint of pigs blood? Well, anything's possible, better get one). But this is due to finding it easier to play competitively when player skill, not system mastery, is being tested; I haven't had a duff session yet, but it was also with a group of other players, each of which were coming along for a play session rather than a specific game.

Great post, Ben. Faith in theRPGsite somewhat restored.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;569085cool story bro

The Butthurt is strong in this one.

Quote from: jhkim;569055Agreed, but I don't think this has much to do with storygame or not.

I very much have a problem with the player stance in this particular case. It's got very much to do with whether I am playing a character in a verisimilar world, or whether I am a co-author in control of a character in a narrative, building a story.

I CAN appreciate both. I know I appreciate traditional RPGs very much. I may like some narrative games occasionally. But don't try to sell me one as the other, or try to pretend there's no difference between the two, or tell me I'm delusional if I happen to see one.

Quote from: Benoist;569126I very much have a problem with the player stance in this particular case. It's got very much to do with whether I am playing a character in a verisimilar world, or whether I am a co-author in control of a character in a narrative, building a story.

I CAN appreciate both. I know I appreciate traditional RPGs very much. I may like some narrative games occasionally. But don't try to sell me one as the other, or try to pretend there's no difference between the two, or tell me I'm delusional if I happen to see one.

I would never do any of that but honestly to me the difference is so negligible that it doesn't bother me or I literally can't see a difference when I actually play. Yes as a discussion or theory I definitely understand and see the difference but in real time it just doesn't impact my enjoyment at all.

Quote from: Marleycat;569128I would never do any of that but honestly to me the difference is so negligible that it doesn't bother me

I got that the first time you posted in the thread. Now please understand what you feel, what bothers you, or does not bother you, doesn't have any impact on how I feel, what bothers me, and what doesn't, when I play an RPG, or other related games.

To be crystal clear, I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about whether my concerns are legit or not, whether you believe there is a difference between RPG and storygames or not. (1) That's not the topic of this discussion, and (2) there's about a zillion other threads on this board, including one I linked in this very thread, where you can do that to your heart's content.

The topic is that, though I do see a difference between RPGs and story/narrative games, I can appreciate the latter nonetheless.

You really need to relax you'll live longer.  First I was saying I support you're position even though I think the position itself is hairsplitting to a degree that is irrelevant to me. But you have a right to that position and it's even the correct position for those that care for that degree of separation.  Second knock off the patronizing attitude towards me it's NOT appreciated.

Quote from: Benoist;568907I don't hate storygames.

You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!

Take him away!

Quote from: Marleycat;569137You really need to relax you'll live longer.  First I was saying I support you're position even though I think the position itself is hairsplitting to a degree that is irrelevant to me. But you have a right to that position and it's even the correct position for those that care for that degree of separation.  Second knock off the patronizing attitude towards me it's NOT appreciated.

I don't mean to be rude. It's just that there has been dozens of threads on this board talking about the difference some gamers see between traditional role playing games and story games. We've debated the issue over and over again. By now it must be clear that some people don't feel like it's relevant or noticeable for them in play, while others do feel like it is important to them and their enjoyment of a traditional role playing game.

And yet there's always been this assumption, explicit and implicit, coming from some of the people who don't see any difference between a trad RPG and a storygame, that people who do see a difference and don't want narrative and overtly metagame mechanics in their RPGs hate storygames, hate all sorts of games but the role playing games they play. That they just don't want these in their RPGs because they just hate the mechanics, and that's it.

This thread was my way of saying that's not my case. I do like all sorts of games: I like wargames, I like games like Chess or Abalone, I play Trivial Pursuit and Cranium, ... and I could play a storygame too, provided I'm interested in the premise of the game and feel like building a story with friends tonight.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;569138You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!

Take him away!

Quote from: Marleycat;569137You really need to relax you'll live longer.  

Eh, is he a wizard?

Quote from: Marleycat;569137First I was saying I support you're position even though I think the position itself is hairsplitting to a degree that is irrelevant to me. But you have a right to that position and it's even the correct position for those that care for that degree of separation.  Second knock off the patronizing attitude towards me it's NOT appreciated.

Like Ben I have no problem with shared narrative games as such, even their self anointed designation as RPGs, well that horse left the stable a while back with MMORPGs and CRPGs really, now anyone can whip something up involving sitting on your arse and swords and call it an RPG, if we're being honest. Doesn't mean he's not factually correct mind you, they aren't RPGs.

The reason for all the kerfuffle and indeed the reason for the Pundit is the uniquely objectionable attitude of the narrativangelists.

I have seriously never seen the level of vitriol these people deal out, and I used to be fairly involved in real-world politics, the kind of bizarre peer pressure which itself indicates that something is wrong. Its a most peculiar phenomenon, particularly for such an inoffensive hobby.

The near religious zeal and high levels of cooperation displayed by these types indicates to me there is something seriously fucked up going on here, whether its a variation on mark buy-in, a group needing self affirmation from any available source, or some kind of pseudo-political factionalism. They self identify as not just different, or better, but as morally and socially correct, in the same way that equal rights advocates do.

Unlike said advocates of course they seem to have built up an artificial position and decided that everything else is a morally wrong throwback for no good reason. Beyond the intellectual dishonesty, the insult to people who are actually trying to make the world a better place is not insignificant.

In any case, if someone enjoys shared narrative games without feeling the need to try to hijack the hobby towards whatever end, I have little difficulty with them. Otherwise, we have a problem. And its not a gaming problem, or a theory problem, or whatever, its a people problem. The catpiss men have been replaced by the "staring intently at your left ear while talking to you" men.

I'm not sure if this thread was meant to be an olive branch of sorts, but the problem needs to be identified correctly before it can be resolved, which is where theRPGSite really shines - robust discussion without fear of being banned for going against the groupthink.

Quote from: Benoist;569149I don't mean to be rude. It's just that there has been dozens of threads on this board talking about the difference some gamers see between traditional role playing games and story games. We've debated the issue over and over again. By now it must be clear that some people don't feel like it's relevant or noticeable for them in play, while others do feel like it is important to them and their enjoyment of a traditional role playing game.
And yet there's always been this assumption, explicit and implicit, coming from some of the people who don't see any difference between a trad RPG and a storygame, that people who do see a difference and don't want narrative and overtly metagame mechanics in their RPGs hate storygames, hate all sorts of games but the role playing games they play. That they just don't want these in their RPGs because they just hate the mechanics, and that's it.
This thread was my way of saying that's not my case. I do like all sorts of games: I like wargames, I like games like Chess or Abalone, I play Trivial Pursuit and Cranium, ... and I could play a storygame too, provided I'm interested in the premise of the game and feel like building a story with friends tonight.

We're good Ben, I just want you to remember I was not here for those threads and don't care about them that much because I'm far more casual about gaming and have learned fairly empherically that I'm in the "excluded middle". My actual issue is the patronizing attitude but no worries it's not important enough to ruin the purpose of your thread.  I apologize if I read it wrong.

Benoist,

I totally see where you are coming from. I like all kinds of games myself, and play them when I can. It doesn't matter if it's say Sorcerer or Villains & Vigilantes, I'll give it a shot if it interests me. Some I enjoy, and some I don't. They offer different play experiences, but that's part of why I like to play them.