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Author Topic: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.  (Read 2570 times)

HappyDaze

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2022, 09:42:44 AM »
I've always been against female space marines as it bas always been clear the emperor used some  of his dna to create the primarchs, and the primarch dna was used to create the marines.
You do know that females are created with DNA from both of their (biological) parents, including that of a male, right?

Primarchs are not clones of the Emperor, and Astartes are not clones of their Primarchs. They carry some genetic legacy, but so too do a father's daughters.

I did not say primarchs were clones of the emperor,  the emp used his Dna as a basis for creating them abd made esch one unique. The marines are nor clones of primarchs but use his dna as a basis for their gene seed.

As tonwhatecer you were trying to say about women, it was too senseless to understand.
I'll try one more time.

All the DNA needed to make a female is present in male DNA. If the Emperor wanted to make a female primarch from his DNA, he could have, so his DNA was not the limiting factor.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2022, 11:08:55 AM »
I've always been against female space marines as it bas always been clear the emperor used some  of his dna to create the primarchs, and the primarch dna was used to create the marines.
You do know that females are created with DNA from both of their (biological) parents, including that of a male, right?

Primarchs are not clones of the Emperor, and Astartes are not clones of their Primarchs. They carry some genetic legacy, but so too do a father's daughters.

I did not say primarchs were clones of the emperor,  the emp used his Dna as a basis for creating them abd made esch one unique. The marines are nor clones of primarchs but use his dna as a basis for their gene seed.

As tonwhatecer you were trying to say about women, it was too senseless to understand.
I'll try one more time.

All the DNA needed to make a female is present in male DNA. If the Emperor wanted to make a female primarch from his DNA, he could have, so his DNA was not the limiting factor.

Yup. All human beings contain the genetic material for both male and female physiology. The Y chromosome merely serves as the first in a series of switches that decide which sex a zygote will develop into. This has been experimentally verified by modifying XX mammal embryos to develop into males, and was previously implied by the existence of different sex determination systems in other species including ones where sex was determined by the environmental temperature. There's also XX male syndrome.

Ultimately, space marines are only made from males because the writers say so. They can invent as many in-universe justifications as they want, but because this is fiction the real reason is purely author fiat.

As I said, you could go the easy route and say that several existing space marine characters were made from women but you can't tell because the process causes all recruits to turn into homogenous ultra-masculine beings. This would allow GW and fans to claim they're giving female representation and get brownie points without putting any real work into it.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2022, 03:58:15 PM »
I think an easy way to address this is to
Not change anything at all. Full stop. No buts, ifs, or 'Well how about's.

I think GW and W40K suck as a company and as a setting. It has absolutely no artistic integrity (Bigger Batman) and it can kick rocks. But NEVER bend the knee to those who see your creative choices as something they can get to control by virtue of whining.

Imagine your eating your favorite food. And then somebody with a gun, takes and points it to the back of your skull and says 'Eat the food or I will blow your brains out'.
Those that say 'Look, you wanted to eat the food anyway right?', are missing the point. The point is the man with the gun sees as having control over you. Whatever he is demanding, no matter how innocous is a demand he thinks he is in the right to make when he is compeltly incorrect.
Now I mean with the gun situation thats one thing, you gotta do it to live. But in this case GW isn't hurting for money and woke mobs move on if denied.

Edit: Yes and all the lore is moronic nonsense. Male Marines is an artistic choice (or the closest thing GW can be too art) and, it should remain that way.

If GW said tomorrow 'There are new Mcdonalds Marines and they are 10 times better then Primaris marines, 25$ a figure please' they would absolutely do it if they could get away with it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 03:59:56 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

hedgehobbit

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2022, 04:52:56 PM »
I saw this but I don't see why people are celebrating. GW is constantly changing their lore especially their Space Marine lore. It is only a matter of time before there is a female Primarch and an all girl Space Marine chapter (which multiple successor chapters). The only question is will these be new, like the Primaris, or will they be something that has always been around, just never mentioned.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 04:54:56 PM by hedgehobbit »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2022, 05:05:59 PM »
The only question is will these be new, like the Primaris, or will they be something that has always been around, just never mentioned.

Depends on what will make more money.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2022, 05:47:09 PM »
I wish they had an interesting reason why there weren’t female space marines, similar to what Claymore does. The Emperor thinking women were too docile or uncontrollable depending on your interpretation of that particular passage isn’t interesting. I want to see the Emperor experimenting with female super soldiers and creating some kind of horrific result that scares him off ever creating more.

Maybe it’s a way to introduce a chaos goddess that presents a threat to both the Emperor and the big four (Slaanesh is obviously a non-binary snowflake). So female space marines are anathema in-universe because they’re so dangerous and inherently tied into this chaos goddess.

Let’s make her the goddess of creation and patron of feminazis and terfs! She wants to kill all men and create a peaceful lesbian paradise.

I jest, but that doesn’t feel out of place for 40k.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2022, 05:53:26 PM »
This isn’t interesting.

...Because you said so? 40K is full of uninteresting things. But why does this warrant attention?

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2022, 07:48:43 PM »
This isn’t interesting.

...Because you said so? 40K is full of uninteresting things. But why does this warrant attention?
I just thought of it because it sounded on topic. It’s not something I think about unless prompted.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2022, 08:22:25 PM »
This isn’t interesting.

...Because you said so? 40K is full of uninteresting things. But why does this warrant attention?
I just thought of it because it sounded on topic. It’s not something I think about unless prompted.
oh. Sorry for snapping.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2022, 11:20:02 AM »
I wish they had an interesting reason why there weren’t female space marines, similar to what Claymore does.

If, as the lore sometimes says, humanity is really in a desperate fight for survival, then you would need as many birthing people as possible making new baby soldiers. So it doesn't make logistical sense to try to turn women into Space Marines considering how many die in the process.

Of course, this is also true with female Imperial Guardsmen. This is another example of GW saying one thing but showing something completely different. The only logical conclusion is that humanity isn't really in danger and that every bad thing that the Imperium does is just the Imperium being evil.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2022, 11:48:47 AM »
I wish they had an interesting reason why there weren’t female space marines, similar to what Claymore does.

If, as the lore sometimes says, humanity is really in a desperate fight for survival, then you would need as many birthing people as possible making new baby soldiers. So it doesn't make logistical sense to try to turn women into Space Marines considering how many die in the process.

Of course, this is also true with female Imperial Guardsmen. This is another example of GW saying one thing but showing something completely different. The only logical conclusion is that humanity isn't really in danger and that every bad thing that the Imperium does is just the Imperium being evil.
And sisters of battle! The imperium would only make sense if they reduced their entire female population to incubators like Skaven do.

I imagine this would make them a lot less sympathetic to a lot of people. “Our setting has zero female representation because all the women have been turned into incubators!”

Would be hilarious to see the reactions tho.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2022, 05:44:41 AM »
The more important thing to remember is that Squats were still around during thr HH, right? Do they get a mention?
They got brought back as “Leagues of Votaan” in modern 40k
Ironically, the announcement trailer dropped on April 1st. GW realized it, and hurriedly cranked out another to assure the fanbase that no, it wasn't a joke.

That was fun.  ;D Squats are in the current Necromunda, straight up called Squats. Even before the Leagues of Votaan were announced.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2022, 06:03:45 AM »
Sisters of Battle have big skull boobies.

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

King Tyranno

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2022, 07:20:45 AM »
This argument is a tedious exercise in sophistry. Let me clear up and condense this for you.

The people who want female space marines do not actually want female space marines. Much as they have done with WotC and other tabletop companies they want to show publicly that they can bully a company into doing what they like. To show they have control over those icky gatekeeping nerds. They won't buy any models, they won't engage with the hobby. They just want to be in control for the sake of it. And those suffering with gender dysphoria often find a perverted thrill in forcing their will on others.

We can all argue over lore, retcons, old Rogue Trader texts that I actually have. But it doesn't matter. Because this isn't a real argument for actual social change or (of actual importance) addressing criticism and changing the game to be better.

And just to break an illusion here, The women who want to play Warhammer will play Warhammer if they want to. There is a perverse and sick need amongst certain people in the hobby that they need validation for their hobbies. They need others to say their hobby is "serious" and not just socially awkward blokes playing with wee plastic men. And what better way to show the hobby is "serious" than show that women play it too. It's not just sweaty, hairy blokes. It's hot women who post to their instagram and Only Fans constantly. Warhammer is for everyone, chuds! But in actuality, women have plenty of options from Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle and so on. No one is stopping them. No one is stopping my Significant Other who just won a tournament at her local GW. What makes her not want to play is when hairy, sweaty men and men who wear dresses tell her she is a bad person for not wanting female Space Marines. And make no mistake, it is men who want this. Not women. Women don't want ugly armies. They don't want masculine armies. They want aesthetically pleasing armies that they painted themselves to look even nicer.  The women who actually want to play Warhammer are perfectly fine with Sisters of Battle. They find them cool. Or Eldar or so on. I know this for a fact because I talk with my partner and her friends about this quite a bit. And I've made quite a bit of money 3D printing various parts for them they can't get from Games Workshop. (GW staff still haven't figured out nearly all the women who go to their shop are using 3D printed bits I made.)

Eirikrautha

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Re: Horus Heresy affirms that only males can be Space Marines.
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2022, 09:09:36 AM »
This argument is a tedious exercise in sophistry. Let me clear up and condense this for you.

The people who want female space marines do not actually want female space marines. Much as they have done with WotC and other tabletop companies they want to show publicly that they can bully a company into doing what they like. To show they have control over those icky gatekeeping nerds. They won't buy any models, they won't engage with the hobby. They just want to be in control for the sake of it. And those suffering with gender dysphoria often find a perverted thrill in forcing their will on others.

We can all argue over lore, retcons, old Rogue Trader texts that I actually have. But it doesn't matter. Because this isn't a real argument for actual social change or (of actual importance) addressing criticism and changing the game to be better.

And just to break an illusion here, The women who want to play Warhammer will play Warhammer if they want to. There is a perverse and sick need amongst certain people in the hobby that they need validation for their hobbies. They need others to say their hobby is "serious" and not just socially awkward blokes playing with wee plastic men. And what better way to show the hobby is "serious" than show that women play it too. It's not just sweaty, hairy blokes. It's hot women who post to their instagram and Only Fans constantly. Warhammer is for everyone, chuds! But in actuality, women have plenty of options from Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle and so on. No one is stopping them. No one is stopping my Significant Other who just won a tournament at her local GW. What makes her not want to play is when hairy, sweaty men and men who wear dresses tell her she is a bad person for not wanting female Space Marines. And make no mistake, it is men who want this. Not women. Women don't want ugly armies. They don't want masculine armies. They want aesthetically pleasing armies that they painted themselves to look even nicer.  The women who actually want to play Warhammer are perfectly fine with Sisters of Battle. They find them cool. Or Eldar or so on. I know this for a fact because I talk with my partner and her friends about this quite a bit. And I've made quite a bit of money 3D printing various parts for them they can't get from Games Workshop. (GW staff still haven't figured out nearly all the women who go to their shop are using 3D printed bits I made.)

This guy gets it!  Hopefully you and the people you know can prevail in this hobby.  At least by understanding them (which you clearly do) you have a better chance at resisting their garbage.