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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Other Games => Topic started by: ArrozConLeche on December 13, 2014, 11:51:48 AM

Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 13, 2014, 11:51:48 AM
I done Foxtrot Uniform badly on the first
thread here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31243) and put it on the wrong forum. Ended up with the dunce cap up my ass. But no matter, this asshat will try again.


I used to be anti-whatever. #GamerGate was just a bunch of "mysogynerds"... until I decided to look into it.

SJW, Feminism, etc. Can be annoying when hypocritical, but it's bullshit to focus on that, IMO. To me the real meat is in this kind of stuff:

Gonzales - Pinsof (https://www.google.com/search?q=yanier+niero+pinsof&oq=yanier+niero+pinsof&aqs=chrome.0.57j61l2.2981&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Hernandez - Anthropy (https://www.google.com/search?q=patricia+hernandez+gamergate&oq=patricia+hernandez+gamergate&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.18429&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=patricia+hernandez+anna+anthropy)

GameJournoPros List (https://www.google.com/search?q=yanier+niero+pinsof&oq=yanier+niero+pinsof&aqs=chrome.0.57j61l2.2981&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=gamejournopros)

That's just some of the situations that have surfaced and gained attention. There is plenty of other shady crap, if you feel like researching, IMO. Who knows what has and is still going on that no one knows about.

What is also really shameful, however,  is how most of the gaming and mainstream media either gloss over this, or completely black it out. They choose to have a single focus on the assholes within the movement with nary a mention. If there's a good thing that has come out of #GamerGate, in my opinion, is that it has shone light on the shady things that go on, and also highlighted the more obvious bullshit (see coverage).

The whole thing would lose momentum if those in charge called the gater's card by actually addressing the problems (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/10/how_to_end_gamergate_a_divide_and_conquer_plan.html), but for some reason this has fallen on deaf ears. As you wonder why, consider that maybe it just hits too close to home.

-----

So, what I wrote (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31243) regarding these two fallacies still applies. Here are the "rules", once more:

Generalization (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/hasty-generalisation/)

Genetic Fallacy or Fallacy of Origin (https://secularethics.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/thegenetic-fallacy/)

These two fallacies are so rampant in the #GamerGate debate, that I just want to highlight them before they occur. You can make whatever fallacious argument you want, of course, but at least it will be known ahead of time which arguments are faulty.

Have at it.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 13, 2014, 12:24:59 PM
I can easily point out that they are owned by Gwaker media and thus do every thing that Gwaker tells them to do and why companies had pulled investments from that media site.  However, it goes much deeper than that.  You need to research were the social justice warriors are coming from.  Gamergate is only the top part of this iceberg.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 13, 2014, 12:58:27 PM
The easiest way for Gamergate to "win" is to en masse stop buying any products from or visting the websites of those companies/people. They'd be dead in a year because, despite what they want to believe, there is no mass audience outside of gamers for that crap. However, I suspect that gamergaters are still regularly doing both those things, looking for outrage.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 13, 2014, 01:03:35 PM
That had always been the problem even long before gamergate was even thought of.  It is tempting to buy games from companies you don't like, but a few of us proven to do it.  That isn't a gamergate problem, but a gamer problem which also plagues gamergate.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 13, 2014, 01:06:37 PM
Then they get what they deserve, IMO.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on December 13, 2014, 01:50:43 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804328
I done Foxtrot Uniform badly on the first
thread here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31243) and put it on the wrong forum. Ended up with the dunce cap up my ass. But no matter, this asshat will try again.


I used to be anti-whatever. #GamerGate was just a bunch of "mysogynerds"... until I decided to look into it.

SJW, Feminism, etc. Can be annoying when hypocritical, but it's bullshit to focus on that, IMO. To me the real meat is in this kind of stuff:

Gonzales - Pinsof (https://www.google.com/search?q=yanier+niero+pinsof&oq=yanier+niero+pinsof&aqs=chrome.0.57j61l2.2981&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Hernandez - Anthropy (https://www.google.com/search?q=patricia+hernandez+gamergate&oq=patricia+hernandez+gamergate&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.18429&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=patricia+hernandez+anna+anthropy)

GameJournoPros List (https://www.google.com/search?q=yanier+niero+pinsof&oq=yanier+niero+pinsof&aqs=chrome.0.57j61l2.2981&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=gamejournopros)

That's just some of the situations that have surfaced and gained attention. There is plenty of other shady crap, if you feel like researching, IMO. Who knows what has and is still going on that no one knows about.

What is also really shameful, however,  is how most of the gaming and mainstream media either gloss over this, or completely black it out. They choose to have a single focus on the assholes within the movement with nary a mention. If there's a good thing that has come out of #GamerGate, in my opinion, is that it has shone light on the shady things that go on, and also highlighted the more obvious bullshit (see coverage).

The whole thing would lose momentum if those in charge called the gater's card by actually addressing the problems (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/10/how_to_end_gamergate_a_divide_and_conquer_plan.html), but for some reason this has fallen on deaf ears. As you wonder why, consider that maybe it just hits too close to home.

-----

So, what I wrote (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31243) regarding these two fallacies still applies. Here are the "rules", once more:

Generalization (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/hasty-generalisation/)

Genetic Fallacy or Fallacy of Origin (https://secularethics.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/thegenetic-fallacy/)

These two fallacies are so rampant in the #GamerGate debate, that I just want to highlight them before they occur. You can make whatever fallacious argument you want, of course, but at least it will be known ahead of time which arguments are faulty.

Have at it.


Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 13, 2014, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.


That's why I think it's foolish to downplay the SJW aspect. There is a certain type of tactic they use.

There's a reason the narrative on their end revolves around women. It's the damsel in distress trope, weaponized to attack critics and deflect criticism. No one can say "Hey, I think Anita's videos are full of shit!" without being  called a gamergate misogynerd.

So when a so-called progressive is caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they can cry misogyny and paint their critics as misogynerds. A culture of fear is cultivated (see, Felicia Day's blog post about GG) and the original offense is obscured by all this bullshit.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: AmazingOnionMan on December 13, 2014, 02:59:31 PM
Might as well come clean here, I support GamerGate wholeheartedly. Not because I am terribly interested in ethics in game journalism - as far as I'm concerned, ethics in journalism is a ship has long since sailed, hit an iceberg, sunk, and no one bothered to make a movie about it.
But they do yell very loudly, and thus wake up some of the sleepers. Which is good. If journalists - game and otherwise - are actually forced to stop slouching and report researched news instead of narrative and clickbait because of this spectacle, that is a good thing.

I find myself supporting gamergate because of the opposition. While "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" might not be the healthiest philosophy to live by, the way gamergate consistently dishes out black eyes to the outrage brigade is downright heartwarming. The constant hounding and vilification of it from the media makes the movement look, if anything, more sympathetic to me.

Anonymous trolls, MRA's and (this will perhaps make me some enemies) rightwingers have done their best to usurp gamergate, but so far haven't succeeded. Everyone else has done their best to paint the movement as misogynistic harassers and a hate group.
As the saying goes "If you can't spot the sucker at the table, you're him." Maybe I'm a sucker, but I still think #gamergate is in the right.

Now, I suggest we chip in and get OHT a nice bottle of flavored spirits. He has probably ground down more than one set of teeth over this clusterfuck.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 13, 2014, 03:08:40 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I don't know how exactly you mean that someone suffered regarding the discovery of hernandez's conflict of interest, so if you don't mind educating me, please expand on what you mean. Unless you mean they suffered as a result of getting caught?

Regarding Pinsof, you should mention that the outed person was holding an indiegogo fundraiser under, at best, misleading information, and at worst, outright deception about the nature of what the money was for. I feel for her, but she put herself in a situation where exposing her deception would lead to her outing. Or do you not believe that the backers had a right to the truth? Was it ok for her to ask for money under false pretenses?

In the end, I don't see how any of that, in itself, is relevant to the point of #GamerGate, nor does it hurt my argument because attacking the source of evidence instead of the evidence itself is exactly what I mentioned in the OP would be a logical fallacy. That LGBT people may have suffered or that Milo is a giant douchebag really stinks, but that means nothing to the premise.

Quote
I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.

That is quite hypocritical, and should be pointed out like you did. Obviously, there is an axe to grind against the "gamers are dead" crowd and the SJWs. Personally, i think this hurtsnthem morebthan helps them. That is not to say that there haven't been such discussions about AAA corps  anywhere.

Personally, I hope they will "level up" as WikiLeaks exhorted. The mainstream media needs to be brought to account too on that front.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 13, 2014, 04:10:07 PM
For those that want to see Journalism offenses, and some steps taken by websites to address those concerns:
A Review of Games Journalism (http://press.gamergate.me/dossier/)

For many of us, Anita Sarkeesian has serious credibility issues:
http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/ (http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/)
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/27/An-open-letter-to-Bloomberg-s-Sheelah-Kolhatkar-on-the-delicate-matter-of-Anita-Sarkeesian (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/27/An-open-letter-to-Bloomberg-s-Sheelah-Kolhatkar-on-the-delicate-matter-of-Anita-Sarkeesian)

Both Adam Sessler and Jim Sterling (prominent gaming journalists) believe they have a god-given Right to illegally doxx you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lje1viM_djY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lje1viM_djY)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 13, 2014, 04:44:50 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.

1) Since the case was over a woman, claiming to need a life-saving medical procedure, that was actually scamming people to pay for gender reassignment surgery, yes, a GLBT person suffered because they were committing fraud. No discrimination because they were GLBT, but because they were a shitty human being. Moving on...
2) The couple in question were indeed both Lesbian. They're relationship would have been a conflict of interest whether they were homo- or hetero-sexual. Moving on...
3) Do you have an actual objection, or are you just going to slur a conservative gay man? Cause so far, YOUR comment has been the most homophobic.

Quote
Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

Find me three sources that admit that, while decrying GamerGate (i.e. taking the anti-GG stance). I'll wait.

Quote
I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.

1) It's harder to go after AAA developers because they have PR and lawyers on-staff to handle these kind of things. That makes discovery A LOT harder.
2) AAA developers are, smartly, basically staying out of the whole kerfuffle. Having a strong pro or anti stance can make a developer un-hireable, since AAA companies want to AVOID true controversy, at all costs.
3) AAA developers are some of the worst actors in the whole mess, offering tablets and high-end laptops as "party gifts" and similar payola. But ultimately, it's the reporters accepting such payoffs that create the conflicts-of-interest. The society of pre-ordering and DLC has created an even more incestuous relationship between developers and journalists, and it's a hell of a lot easier to remind journalists of their responsibility and ethics, than to get For Profit companies to change policies that work.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on December 14, 2014, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804375
Find me three sources that admit that, while decrying GamerGate (i.e. taking the anti-GG stance). I'll wait.


And we'll enjoy watching you starve to death.

Quote
3) Do you have an actual objection, or are you just going to slur a conservative gay man? Cause so far, YOUR comment has been the most homophobic.


You are hilarious. You're the guy that makes the anti-GG argument for them.



Quote
1) Since the case was over a woman, claiming to need a life-saving medical procedure, that was actually scamming people to pay for gender reassignment surgery, yes, a GLBT person suffered because they were committing fraud. No discrimination because they were GLBT, but because they were a shitty human being. Moving on...
2) The couple in question were indeed both Lesbian. They're relationship would have been a conflict of interest whether they were homo- or hetero-sexual. Moving on...



Look, since you are struggling to get the (my) point. [You] are pointing at these guys' misdeeds, jumping up and down at their wrongdoing. And hey, for now, let's accept everything you say about that.

But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.


Take the list of names on the Secret Game Journos Email List. It's overwhelmingly male. And yet the high-profile people getting hurt by this mess, the people on your shitlist of bad behavior, are mostly not.



I've been a gamer for probably longer than you've been alive, and you (GG) don't speak for me. I've always been a huge advocate for gamers and gaming (of all kinds), and this saga has sickened me. And I'm far from alone.

The reason I referenced Felicia Day in the now-closed* thread is that her experience is a perfect example of the damage that has been done. Calling her prejudiced and whatnot is just so blinkered-defensive**. Her enjoyment of our hobby has been fundamentally damaged by the GamerGate saga. And to what end?


One doesn't need to be a pitchfork-waving SJW to know exactly where to point the finger of blame.


*way to go, guys

**(Day's doxxing actually came after her post, for what it's worth. She was upset before that.).
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 14, 2014, 03:29:20 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804375
3) AAA developers are some of the worst actors in the whole mess, offering tablets and high-end laptops as "party gifts" and similar payola. But ultimately, it's the reporters accepting such payoffs that create the conflicts-of-interest. The society of pre-ordering and DLC has created an even more incestuous relationship between developers and journalists, and it's a hell of a lot easier to remind journalists of their responsibility and ethics, than to get For Profit companies to change policies that work.


That's not the developers. That's the publishers - they're the ones who pay for the marketing, they're the ones that buy the metacritic scores, and they're the ones that assign bonuses based on metacritic scores.

And it is that corruption that should be targeted, because that is what is actually making gaming worse. It costs real money to buy the AAA games, £30+; and if you've bought a new release on the basis of a corrupt review and it turns out to be a turd, that's a significant amount of money to be out! You've got a legitimate reason to be upset! I'm sure all those of us who buy video games have done this in our time.

But if, say, you read an article about Depression Quest (http://www.depressionquest.com/dqfinal.html), play it (Or any other free-as-in-beer indie game), and don't like it... you've only lost a few minutes. Even if you have to pay for it, like you read a Patricia Hernandez (http://kotaku.com/anna-anthropy-designer-behind-dys4ia-and-triad-and-au-1448084641) on one of Anna Anthropy's games... you go to the site and check it out, you can get a good idea of what you're getting and if it's for you, and if you do then pay for something and don't like it, you're only out a couple of pounds. Well, big deal. You really were warned.

So that's it. The videogame side of gamergate isn't going for valuable targets, it's not doing anything to make videogames more interesting and varied.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 14, 2014, 03:51:45 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804532
And we'll enjoy watching you starve to death.
Obviously the sentiment of a progressive, socially conscious voice.
My starving children thank you, for your beneficence.

Quote
You are hilarious. You're the guy that makes the anti-GG argument for them.

That they support criminals and engage in unethical behavior, including e-celebs like Adam Sessler and Jim Sterling enthusiastically supporting illegal doxxing?
Video from SGC2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFlYNsGeWdg)

Quote
Look, since you are struggling to get the (my) point. [You] are pointing at these guys' misdeeds, jumping up and down at their wrongdoing. And hey, for now, let's accept everything you say about that.


Apparently you also are missing my point: I don't give a shit about these people, save for their misdeeds. The first committed criminal fraud. The second is a journalist giving favorable biased coverage to someone they're in a relationship with. They were living together.

Whether they're Black, Blue, LBGT, or glowing from radioactivity makes no difference to me. I'm just interested in their legal and ethical failures, and seeing that corrected.

Quote
But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.

Feel free to keep telling yourself that. After daft moves like #ShirtGate and the newly emerging #MetalGate, you'll actually find we're trending just fine, and actually jump after each media blitz to falsely paint us.

The fact you also cannot tell their are trolls on both sides, is quite telling. The difference between Pro-GG and Anti-GG, is our trolls don't write for major publications. :p

Quote
Take the list of names on the Secret Game Journos Email List. It's overwhelmingly male. And yet the high-profile people getting hurt by this mess, the people on your shitlist of bad behavior, are mostly not.

You mean the people Pro-GG has renamed "Literally Who?", in an attempt to bring the focus off of them. You'll forgive me, but the women you're mentioning are literally anti-GG's #NotYourShield, albeit built on just 4 women instead of hundreds of women and minorities.

Quote
I've been a gamer for probably longer than you've been alive, and you (GG) don't speak for me. I've always been a huge advocate for gamers and gaming (of all kinds), and this saga has sickened me. And I'm far from alone.
Unlikely; don't mean to speak for you, just me; I agree the nepotism and unethical behavior sickens me too; no, there is a fair following of people following both pro and anti-GG.
(KotakuInAction (pro-GG) has 22,513 subscribers, GamerGhazi (anti-GG) has 4077 subscribers)

Quote
The reason I referenced Felicia Day in the now-closed* thread is that her experience is a perfect example of the damage that has been done. Calling her prejudiced and whatnot is just so blinkered-defensive**. Her enjoyment of our hobby has been fundamentally damaged by the GamerGate saga. And to what end?

Yes, indeed; who makes money off this controversy?
Developers? No, most try to avoid controversy.
Gamers? Being called misogynistic basement-dwelling shitlords? Seems unlikely...
Journalists and "Cultural Commentary"? Oh, how they can create clickbait from this! Their victim status is self-supporting! How many have a Patreon...?

Quote
One doesn't need to be a pitchfork-waving SJW to know exactly where to point the finger of blame.

How about the ones actually engaged in unethical or criminal wrong-doing? And we don't paint everyone as an extremist within a movement (unless you truly believe all Muslims are terrorists)? I'm not saying every gaming journalist is an unethical hack; but the ones I know of wrong-doing, I am going to take to task.

Quote
**(Day's doxxing actually came after her post, for what it's worth. She was upset before that.).

Yes, I'm sure the fact she uses the same PR firm that represents several of the worst offenders of GamerGate, being personal friends with a number of anti-GG's, had nothing to do with her position as well. :eek:
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 14, 2014, 04:08:00 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;804539
That's not the developers. That's the publishers - they're the ones who pay for the marketing, they're the ones that buy the metacritic scores, and they're the ones that assign bonuses based on metacritic scores.

And it is that corruption that should be targeted, because that is what is actually making gaming worse. It costs real money to buy the AAA games, £30+; and if you've bought a new release on the basis of a corrupt review and it turns out to be a turd, that's a significant amount of money to be out! You've got a legitimate reason to be upset! I'm sure all those of us who buy video games have done this in our time.

But if, say, you read an article about Depression Quest (http://www.depressionquest.com/dqfinal.html), play it (Or any other free-as-in-beer indie game), and don't like it... you've only lost a few minutes. Even if you have to pay for it, like you read a Patricia Hernandez (http://kotaku.com/anna-anthropy-designer-behind-dys4ia-and-triad-and-au-1448084641) on one of Anna Anthropy's games... you go to the site and check it out, you can get a good idea of what you're getting and if it's for you, and if you do then pay for something and don't like it, you're only out a couple of pounds. Well, big deal. You really were warned.

So that's it. The videogame side of gamergate isn't going for valuable targets, it's not doing anything to make videogames more interesting and varied.

Point given; I should have said publishers, not developers.
The problem still remains, being able to take the big guys to task.

I recently read about a recent press junket in Europe, one of the big guys included a free Nexus 7 Tablet as swag to people reviewing their game. Several journalists mentioned it; some returning it on the spot, some deciding to use it as a sweepstakes or raffle prize, but an unknown number just took it home. To make matters worse, not all journalists with every publication got one, some just got promotional t-shirts.

Beyond a boycott of the game, there's not much the consumer can do to take the publisher to task. It's A LOT easier to hold the journalists to task, since the SJP of Ethics says they should refuse the gift, since it creates a conflict-of-interest.

It's the problem of trying to change a system that has become increasingly incestuous over the last 3 decades. As a consumer, I really only feel I have two methods of communication: written correspondence (letters, e-mail, twitter, etc), and straight up boycotts (talking with my money).

I don't have a publisher asking me to give out Nexus 7 Tablets to "buy" good reviews; I have no ethical decisions to make. I'm not a journalist at a Press Junket, being offered a Nexus 7 Tablet for a "favorable" review (wink, wink); I have no ethical decisions to make. But as a consumer, I think both are unethical as hell, and I think it's fair for me to voice my displeasure.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 14, 2014, 04:11:44 PM
Note: Working in construction, I am perhaps more critical of conflict-of-interest than your normal person. I'm also very critical of "gifts" from biased sources. I don't want to be in a building that was built with 3000psi concrete, instead of 4000psi, because the inspector felt he "owed" a favor to the Contractor... :eek:
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 14, 2014, 04:28:35 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804547
Beyond a boycott of the game, there's not much the consumer can do to take the publisher to task.

Then that's what customers should do. If that means that we have to pass up playing a game we'd like because we're unhappy with the publisher, then so be it! Morals are hard.

And "don't buy" doesn't mean "pirate". "I'm boycotting them, so I'll pirate their games" is just an excuse, a weak justification for something the person wanted to do anyway.

Like, I haven't bought a Ubisoft title in over a decade now, because I could see that they were an awful publisher, even back then. The closest I've came is one of the new Rayman games, but the response to the latest round of Murder's Manifesto titles ("AC2014 wasn't great. Here at IGN, we've given Ubisoft a thorough minor tap on the pinkie, and written a bunch of articles on how they're sorry, how they are going to fix it, how the game is great otherwise, how they've fixed it, and all the stuff they held back but are now going to graciously give you for free. In conclusion, you should buy Murder's Manifesto 2014!") put me off. I'd like a nice 2D platform game, but I like my personal integrity more.

So yeah, I think it's fine to voice displeasure about these things... but that isn't what Gamergate is doing. If Nathan Grayson never wrote another article announcing that a game had made it through Steam Greenlight (For example), it still wouldn't do anything to hold the major publishers responsible, or to make gaming media any better for gamers. You have to go for the big targets. They're the only ones that matter.

(Ex-accountant; have worked under a code of professional ethics, have no intention of breaking them now even though I resigned my membership.)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 14, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804532
But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.


There are a lot of people falling for the anti-GG propoganda. There are a lot of people who agree with GG. I think it's disingenuous to try and portray this as GG being toxic and some nebulous "everyone" tut tutting at the bad, nasty GGers.

Quote
The reason I referenced Felicia Day in the now-closed* thread is that her experience is a perfect example of the damage that has been done. Calling her prejudiced and whatnot is just so blinkered-defensive**. Her enjoyment of our hobby has been fundamentally damaged by the GamerGate saga. And to what end?

**(Day's doxxing actually came after her post, for what it's worth. She was upset before that.).


Felicia Day can go piss up a rope. She bought the threat narrative that people like Anita Sarkeesian and Johnathan Mcintosh are spinng to make this into an identity politics issue. IMO if you want to see the toxicity in anti-GG, look to those kinds of people.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: This Guy on December 14, 2014, 05:12:53 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804547

Beyond a boycott of the game, there's not much the consumer can do to take the publisher to task. It's A LOT easier to hold the journalists to task, since the SJP of Ethics says they should refuse the gift, since it creates a conflict-of-interest.


Better the easy and useless thing, I suppose.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Elfdart on December 14, 2014, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804364
For those that want to see Journalism offenses, and some steps taken by websites to address those concerns:
A Review of Games Journalism (http://press.gamergate.me/dossier/)

For many of us, Anita Sarkeesian has serious credibility issues:
http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/ (http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/)
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/27/An-open-letter-to-Bloomberg-s-Sheelah-Kolhatkar-on-the-delicate-matter-of-Anita-Sarkeesian (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/27/An-open-letter-to-Bloomberg-s-Sheelah-Kolhatkar-on-the-delicate-matter-of-Anita-Sarkeesian)

Both Adam Sessler and Jim Sterling (prominent gaming journalists) believe they have a god-given Right to illegally doxx you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lje1viM_djY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lje1viM_djY)


Am I the only one laughing out loud that anyone would cite Breitbart as a source to accuse someone else of lacking ethics in journalism?

It's like pretending to be concerned for the welfare of kids and citing NAMBLA as a credible source.
:rotfl:
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 14, 2014, 11:02:31 PM
Quote from: Elfdart;804595
Am I the only one laughing out loud that anyone would cite Breitbart as a source to accuse someone else of lacking ethics in journalism?

It's like pretending to be concerned for the welfare of kids and citing NAMBLA as a credible source.
:rotfl:


Is the Breitbart article untruthful or unfactual in any way?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 14, 2014, 11:31:06 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;804532


But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.


Have proof of this pervasiveness, or are you generalizing from the things the media chooses to focus on?

I just took this archive of Kia, showing the hottestnthreads, and I don't know if this is what you consider toxicity. The most I could fault in it is the few threads against sarkeesian, which seem pointless to me as far as what their goals are.

https://archive.today/EtefB


All,

There's now something called metalgate (http://www.deathmetal.org/tag/metalgate/).
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 14, 2014, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: Elfdart;804595
Am I the only one laughing out loud that anyone would cite Breitbart as a source to accuse someone else of lacking ethics in journalism?

Indeed, it is pretty miserable when Breitbart looks like a bastion of credible journalism.

THAT's how bad gaming journalism is.

Quote from: This Guy
Better the easy and useless thing, I suppose.

No, that would be the anti-GG stance of "Call the Consumers misogynerds, ignore the problem, and hope everything goes back to the way it was..."
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Elfdart on December 14, 2014, 11:48:59 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804596
Is the Breitbart article untruthful or unfactual in any way?


If Breitbart wrote that the sun rose in the east yesterday morning, I'd demand to see unaltered video proof. The organization, like the pathological liar who created it*, is chock full of some of the most depraved liars you'll encounter outside of a convention for holocaust deniers. Just Google "Shirley Sherrod".

*Andrew Breitbart was such a shameless liar, forger and huckster that when he made the sterling career move of dropping dead on a sidewalk, more than a few people upon hearing the news, assumed he was doing another of his fucktarded publicity stunts.

The article itself is dishonest in pretending that death and rape threats aren't a serious matter. Don't believe me? Feel free to send one to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and see how long it takes before the Secret Service nails your balls to the wall.

The fact that so many fucktards send these kinds of threats that the authorities can't really do much about them doesn't make them OK. Nor does the fact that most of the wankers sending them couldn't work up the nerve to pour salt on a slug. Contacting their moms (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/02/alanah-pearce-rape-threats-facebook_n_6248928.html) isn't necessarily foolproof.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Elfdart on December 14, 2014, 11:52:18 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804599
Indeed, it is pretty miserable when Breitbart looks like a bastion of credible journalism.

THAT's how bad gaming journalism is.



If Breitbart "looks like a bastion of credible journalism" then you need to change your bong water more often. If you want someone to give Anita Sarkeesian the heckling she richly deserves, try Thunderf00t. He's not a dishonest bullshitter.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on December 15, 2014, 12:04:40 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;804601
If Breitbart "looks like a bastion of credible journalism" then you need to change your bong water more often. If you want someone to give Anita Sarkeesian the heckling she richly deserves, try Thunderf00t. He's not a dishonest bullshitter.


I've not seen anything more recent, but this  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-tkrxAEWw)was pretty damning at the time.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 15, 2014, 12:52:46 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;804601
If Breitbart "looks like a bastion of credible journalism" then you need to change your bong water more often. If you want someone to give Anita Sarkeesian the heckling she richly deserves, try Thunderf00t. He's not a dishonest bullshitter.

Breitbart as an organization I cannot talk about, but Milo Yiannopoulos has been one of the few and far between journalists actually willing to do some investigative journalism. He uncovered the GamesJournosPros (http://www.breitbart.com/breitbart-london/2014/09/18/the-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed) Google+ group. Which they talked about actively censoring the Quinn story (actually, they talked about getting her a sympathy gift. That's a new level of FU'd conflict-of-interest...), talked over punitive actions of staff with competitors, and coordinated a narrative to spin stories (similar to the original JournoList (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList))

Also, it's hard to link to ThunderFoot on Twitter, since his account got suspended for "harassment", despite the fact it mostly links to his YouTube Channel. WAM at work!
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 15, 2014, 02:51:21 PM
As the subject of Breitbart's credibility has been brought up, I thought this chart was handy (Breitbart is not included, unfortunately):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46vaEIIUAEXFX-.png)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 15, 2014, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804644
As the subject of Breitbart's credibility has been brought up, I thought this chart was handy (Breitbart is not included, unfortunately):

Erm, context? Dates, source, sample size?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on December 15, 2014, 03:09:02 PM
Not surprising, but that's disappointing about Al Jezeera.  They have some really good programming on there.  Too bad people see the name and think it's some sort of mouthpiece for Islam.

Also of no surprise is Fox News.  Once again, the "You're with us or against us" network.  And RM wouldn't have it any other way.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 15, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
Whats disturbing is how high a trust rating Fox News received, being in the top ten. ITs scary to think there's so many people who consider it a legitimate news source
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on December 15, 2014, 04:51:15 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;804651
Whats disturbing is how high a trust rating Fox News received, being in the top ten. ITs scary to think there's so many people who consider it a legitimate news source


It's also got one of the highest distrust.  Definitely the most polarizing.

I'd like to see a chart that listed "Error rate per 100 stories reported"
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 15, 2014, 06:25:00 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;804646
Erm, context? Dates, source, sample size?
Apologies; Pew Research Journalism Project, Oct 21, 2014 (http://www.journalism.org/interactives/media-polarization/table/overall/)

NOTE: and looking at it on the webpage, Breitbart is listed (a whooping 4% trust level!).

Quote
It's also got one of the highest distrust. Definitely the most polarizing.
I'd say Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh earn that distinction, their Trust: Distrust rations are nearly 1:3
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 15, 2014, 07:23:04 PM
Here is a new gaming site (http://www.goodgamers.us/).  It seems to be doing a lot of different things that the mainstream gaming sites don't seem to be doing.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 15, 2014, 07:25:51 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;804681
Here is a new gaming site (http://www.goodgamers.us/).  It seems to be doing a lot of different things that the mainstream gaming sites don't seem to be doing.


Well, there's another victory for Gamergate. I'm impressed. Good stuff
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 16, 2014, 07:18:24 AM
They've got better (The original version of the site was essentially Objective Game Reviews (http://www.objectivegamereviews.com/), but without the realisation that OGR was a joke), but the biggest problem with the site is that the writers are boring; I only looked at a few articles, but they spent too much time apologising for themselves and regurgitating things they thought their readers might think, rather than having opinions of their own. I don't want to go to a site to read what I think, or what I might think, I want to know what somebody else thinks. That's rather the point.

They also don't pay their writers, which is... bad. Very bad. If you're writing quality content, you deserve to get paid for it; doing it for free devalues writing for everyone else, and also only leaves you with hobbyists (Who aren't likely to care enough to write reviews for games they don't have a strong opinion on) or people looking for their break into the industry (Who won't be very good yet, and will leave when they can get paid... or could just write on their own site instead).

So it's not exactly going to be the next RPS (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/). But what annoys me the most is their segregating "indie games" into their own category, rather than giving them the full billing they deserve. It's a way to technically cover them, but subtly insinuate that they're not "real" games.

Ladybird: Also, in a debate / roundtable-type article. using coloured text to indicate specific speakers, without other indicators as well (Like prefacing a paragraph with it's speaker) is a bad idea.
Ladybird: I agree! It's an especially bad choice if your site's target audience is male (As with most games sites), is a poor design choice (Hint : Visual condition, massively more common in men than women).
Ladybird: I don't think they'd have intentionally written in their guidelines "Also, the colourblind can just fuck off". It likely just didn't occur to them.
Ladybird: They certainly need to check their privileges, all right.

All that said, they've lasted longer than I thought they would.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 16, 2014, 10:14:14 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;804746
But what annoys me the most is their segregating "indie games" into their own category, rather than giving them the full billing they deserve. It's a way to technically cover them, but subtly insinuate that they're not "real" games.


I don't mind this too much. Indie games tend to have a certain aesthetic and budget, if you happen to be into that. It's nice to have an exclusive space dedicated to them.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 16, 2014, 11:42:18 AM
I don't want opinions.  I want objective facts and truth that can be proven.  I don't care how boring it is to be frank about it.  I just want the news and unbiased game reviews that is unbiased as humanly possible.  If there is some biased I want to be told about it first before I go on to read it.

If you go on saying you don't like a news site that is trying to achieve to be unbiased, political free, and worthy of trust because it is boring well here are news for you.  You are part of the problem that makes the other gaming sites into shit.  You may not be as bad as a big publisher that force, threaten, and bribe gaming sites.  You may not be as bad as social justice warrior journalists that force, threaten, and bribe indie games.  You are, however, one more cog in the machine that makes gaming journalism corrupt.  You need to change.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: NeonAce on December 16, 2014, 01:45:47 PM
Games are recreation. There exists a site that someone finds boring. You tell a person they are a bad person and need to change, because even though this person finds the site regarding their recreation boring, you believe it has good ideals.

That's really weird.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 16, 2014, 02:00:09 PM
A difference in opinions is weird to you? Huh.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 16, 2014, 02:57:55 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;804764
I don't want opinions.  I want objective facts and truth that can be proven.  I don't care how boring it is to be frank about it.  I just want the news and unbiased game reviews that is unbiased as humanly possible.  If there is some biased I want to be told about it first before I go on to read it.

If you go on saying you don't like a news site that is trying to achieve to be unbiased, political free, and worthy of trust because it is boring well here are news for you.  You are part of the problem that makes the other gaming sites into shit.  You may not be as bad as a big publisher that force, threaten, and bribe gaming sites.  You may not be as bad as social justice warrior journalists that force, threaten, and bribe indie games.  You are, however, one more cog in the machine that makes gaming journalism corrupt.  You need to change.

Tish tosh. I don't mind opinions or bias. In fact, I kind of love them. I like it when a commenter or reviewer puts an entertaining spin on a criticism about a particular AAA flop, or *gasp* even a feminist yarking about jiggle physics.

What I do not like, and what I personally think is one of the underlying problems that steered things towards Gamergate occuring, is someone trying to put across their subjective bias as fact. Like Anita making some claim without any kind of evidence, or with some pretty fucking flimsy conjecture about how titty physics turns young boys into rape monsters.

And to be clear, I'm fine with Anita spewing her garbage. What bothers me is how criticism of her stuff gets shut down in the name of Social Justice.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: NeonAce on December 16, 2014, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Novastar;804776
A difference in opinions is weird to you? Huh.

Well, thinking someone needs to change, thinking that someone is "part of the problem" because they find a website regarding a recreation of theirs boring, yeah, that's the weird part. People have differences of opinion all of the time. That's the normal part.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 16, 2014, 06:52:17 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804755
I don't mind this too much. Indie games tend to have a certain aesthetic and budget, if you happen to be into that. It's nice to have an exclusive space dedicated to them.


Huh? There isn't any form of indie aesthetic; they're all over the place, possibly moreso than recent AAA's. 2D, 3D, primitive ("Highly stylized" :) ), advanced... you could probably exchange assets between Torchlight 2 and WoW, and nobody would notice. Bastion and Transistor are probably the two most gorgeous games ever made. Prison Architect and Dwarf Fortress are all about the underlying engine, rather than the visuals (And probably wouldn't work with "better" visuals anyway). Hotline Miami and Super Hot have distinctive visual styles as an aesthetic choice. Nethack's characters tell you everything you need to know, with a minimum of fuss. Minecraft's gameplay wouldn't work with less blocky graphics. Depression Quest is a gamebook, so... text. Cactus' games... are fucking wierd. Amplitude's 4x games are very pretty, and compare favorably to Civ; Dungeon of the Endless has a clean look to it, that's distinct from the others, but it's also a distinct genre change.

The segregating of games off into an "indie game" category demeans them; it's not giving them their full due, and it also isolates AAA games from having to compete with them. These are titles that can stand alongside the AAA market in terms of their gameplay, which is ultimately the most important thing, and that's why they should be rated there, not dropped off under another header (And the indie games that can't match up, gameplay-wise, can get bad ratings, alongside the bad AAA titles). All are games; all should be lauded or trashed on their own merits.

Quote from: Snowman0147;804764
I don't want opinions.  I want objective facts and truth that can be proven.  I don't care how boring it is to be frank about it.  I just want the news and unbiased game reviews that is unbiased as humanly possible.  If there is some biased I want to be told about it first before I go on to read it.


Then you are in luck my friend, as I posted the link to Objective Game Reviews. Enjoy.

However, pure objectivity fails when discussing artistic mediums. Breaking down the elements of a game; we already know that people have widely-varying tastes in the traditional artistic mediums (Music, paintings, sculptures, writing). They can't be numerically quantified. Same comes to levels, characters, moves, items... it's just a number. Is a game with 30 levels twice as good as one with 15? Maybe, depends on the levels. Is it twice as big? Well, Elite : Dangerous has 1 level, and it's the entire galaxy. So, um... yeah, that's not a useful number either. Is it better to have more characters? Torchlight 2 has four classes; Diablo 2 has five (Or seven, with the expansion). Is that good? Is Diablo 2 25% better? 25% longer? 25% more varied?

When it comes to gameplay, though... firstly, different people like different sorts of games (This isn't new information, right? I don't need to prove this empirically?). Fans of a particular genre aren't necessarily going to like other genres; and it's not enough to say "I played Metal Gear Solid 3 and it was good". If I'm reading a review, I want to know what the reviewer thinks of the genre, what their biases are, what they like and what they don't like, because the more information they give me, the better informed I am to make a decision on the game. Could be we value some features very differently! A good reviewer can write up exactly why they hate a particular feature, and sell an interested reader on it at the same time.

Frex, Polygon's review of Bayonetta 2 may have had a 7.5 at the end of it (Which, in AAA-gaming reviews, means "worst thing ever made"), but I read the fucking text too and that's why I bought my brother a copy for christmas; the author clearly enjoys action games, and clearly thought it was a very good action game. That they objected to the boobies, well, I'm an adult; I can judge information for myself and come to my own conclusion about it.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 17, 2014, 12:03:18 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;804778
Tish tosh. I don't mind opinions or bias. In fact, I kind of love them. I like it when a commenter or reviewer puts an entertaining spin on a criticism about a particular AAA flop, or *gasp* even a feminist yarking about jiggle physics.

What I do not like, and what I personally think is one of the underlying problems that steered things towards Gamergate occuring, is someone trying to put across their subjective bias as fact. Like Anita making some claim without any kind of evidence, or with some pretty fucking flimsy conjecture about how titty physics turns young boys into rape monsters.

And to be clear, I'm fine with Anita spewing her garbage. What bothers me is how criticism of her stuff gets shut down in the name of Social Justice.


Yep. thats my thoughts on the matter in a nutshell. I like opinionated reviews. Otherwise its not a review, its a news bulletin. I just can't abide opinion paraded as irrefutable truth.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 17, 2014, 06:30:56 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;804804
Huh? There isn't any form of indie aesthetic; they're all over the place, possibly moreso than recent AAA's. 2D, 3D, primitive ("Highly stylized" :) ), advanced... you could probably exchange assets between Torchlight 2 and WoW, and nobody would notice.


Okay, maybe. But I think they are distinctive from your typical AAA title.

http://indiegamereviewer.com/

My impression of them is always that they have a low budget look to them, and they tend to have more "out of the box" premises in terms of gameplay or theme.

I actually like that I can go to a site like the above directly to find this kind of thing.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Alzrius on December 17, 2014, 09:07:43 AM
Well, another disappointment insofar as being pro-GamerGate goes.

I mentioned to my friends at our weekly game (after we all took last week off) the whole fiasco with OBS and the #GamerGate card game. Much to my dismay, the group expressed support for the idea of the game being pulled (even the self-described anarchist, who later in the evening stated - in reference to the game Hatred on Steam - that he was opposed to censorship in every regard imaginable; he said it completely without irony too).

I then tried to offer my opinion on not only why I thought that the game being pulled was bad, but also that it was based on a faulty premise, since GamerGate isn't a hate group.

Judging from their reactions, you'd have thought I expressed sympathy for the Nazi Party. Two people got very uncomfortable looks on their faces, while two others started to explain to me how GG was, in fact, doing evil in the world. At that point, the conversation was cut off as the owner of the house we play at strongly suggested (in a way that brooked no argument) that we not discuss the issue.

Maybe it was naive of me, but I felt quite dispirited by the entire exchange.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 17, 2014, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804854
My impression of them is always that they have a low budget look to them, and they tend to have more "out of the box" premises in terms of gameplay or theme.

I actually like that I can go to a site like the above directly to find this kind of thing.


That's kinda true, but it's also partly that the major publishers have mostly stagnated over the last few years, into the three main genres of Cars, Guns and Sports, because they won't take risks any more... it's just too expensive (And partly that's their fault, when they started down the "you should buy our game because it has more graphics!" route, and partly it's our fault for all buying into that).

So you've got the far-out indie scene, and that's pretty nifty sometimes, but you've also got the "natural development of old genres" side of it, which is filling in the gaps that have been left behind, and doing the experimentation that the majors used to do.

Also, that site's going in the bookmarks, because it looks like a great resource, so thanks!

There's nothing wrong with cars / guns / sports games, of course - I'm not about to say "I don't think they are real games" or anything like that, because that would be stupid - I just like more variety.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 17, 2014, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Alzrius;804870
Maybe it was naive of me, but I felt quite dispirited by the entire exchange.


Are you surprise?  The social justice warriors control the media and I don't mean just video game media.  I mean all media.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Alzrius on December 17, 2014, 12:31:24 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;804892
Are you surprise?  The social justice warriors control the media and I don't mean just video game media.  I mean all media.


I shouldn't have been surprised, I know. But I was.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Shipyard Locked on December 17, 2014, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;804870

Maybe it was naive of me, but I felt quite dispirited by the entire exchange.


I know this is exactly what would happen if I brought this up with my friends, so I don't. I talk about it anonymously online and vote with my wallet.

Cowardly yes, but my friends are mostly good people and we all have flaws and blind spots, so I don't want to lose them over something like this.

Besides, it would sound insanely hypocritical coming from me, because I used to dismiss conservative talking points with equally cavalier vehemence in the past. It's exactly the same thing, "I'm not even going to hear out this evil shit because I just intuitively know it's fascist cherry-picking straw-manning false consciousness."

I know where the worst of the anti-GG group is coming from because I was what they are. It wasn't until certain bad experiences in a fandom I don't care to mention really hit close to home that I realized the depths of my intellectual dishonesty.

Disclaimer: I certainly do not agree with everything GG does, and I do not turn my nose up at everything anti-GG does purely because of their stance. Case by case basis from now on.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: PinkRobedReaper on December 18, 2014, 03:04:34 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;804907

I know where the worst of the anti-GG group is coming from because I was what they are. It wasn't until certain bad experiences in a fandom I don't care to mention really hit close to home that I realized the depths of my intellectual dishonesty.


Pretty much this.

I consider myself something of a liberal progressive, then gamergate happened and now I have no choice but to side with conservative newsites; because they're usually the ones that rail the hardest against censorship and SJWs.

It's rather disheartening and it made me reconsider much of my own ideals. I used to think social justice and feminism were great things, and that anyone who thought otherwise was obviously insane. Now I know otherwise.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Imperator on December 18, 2014, 03:30:13 AM
There is a thing that stumps me, and stumps me enormously. The narcissism of it all.

Look at the title of the OP: Fighting for a more ethical world. It's hard to conceive the amount of self-centeredness you need to have to think that "fixing" the journalism of your stupid hobby is going to make a more ethical world, instead of, dunno, teaching people not to be raging homophobe, racist, complete assholes over fucking videogames.

Developers get death threats over fixes in a patch of Call of Duty but the problem here is that some reviews may be dishonest.

Then gamers wonder why they have the image of idiotic assholes.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Shipyard Locked on December 18, 2014, 06:22:54 AM
Quote from: PinkRobedReaper;805014
I used to think social justice and feminism were great things, and that anyone who thought otherwise was obviously insane. Now I know otherwise.


To be fair I still think they are mostly good things, I'm just not willfully blind to their potential for authoritarian abuse anymore.

Quote from: Imperator
It's hard to conceive the amount of self-centeredness you need to have to think that "fixing" the journalism of your stupid hobby is going to make a more ethical world, instead of, dunno, teaching people not to be raging homophobe, racist, complete assholes over fucking videogames.


We can improve journalism, fight online harassment, reduce discrimination and condemn radical social justice excesses at the same time. It's just that right now all these issues have been awkwardly bundled together by a very emotional, tribal political conflict. In time the specifics of gamergate will fade, allowing these various conversations more room to breathe again.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 18, 2014, 06:29:39 AM
Quote from: Imperator;805020
There is a thing that stumps me, and stumps me enormously. The narcissism of it all.

Look at the title of the OP: Fighting for a more ethical world. It's hard to conceive the amount of self-centeredness you need to have .

Sorry. That was written with tongue in cheek. Imagine it was the narrated title of a cyberpunk corporation's PR video with children playing and laughing on the background against a backdrop of a clear blue sky.

Title was just an attempt at making a little fun of the whole thing.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Imperator on December 18, 2014, 06:44:04 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;805025
We can improve journalism, fight online harassment, reduce discrimination and condemn radical social justice excesses at the same time. It's just that right now all these issues have been awkwardly bundled together by a very emotional, tribal political conflict. In time the specifics of gamergate will fade, allowing these various conversations more room to breathe again.

Surely all these things can happen simultaneously. It's just that when I see some gamers describing this fight against some journalists as "the good fight" it makes me puke.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;805027
Sorry. That was written with tongue in cheek. Imagine it was the narrated title of a cyberpunk corporation's PR video with children playing and laughing on the background against a backdrop of a clear blue sky.

Title was just an attempt at making a little fun of the whole thing.

My apologies if I misread you, then.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ArrozConLeche on December 18, 2014, 08:38:25 AM
Quote from: Imperator;805029

My apologies if I misread you, then.


No need. Fault's on me.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jan paparazzi on December 18, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
Quote from: PinkRobedReaper;805014
Pretty much this.

I consider myself something of a liberal progressive, then gamergate happened and now I have no choice but to side with conservative newsites; because they're usually the ones that rail the hardest against censorship and SJWs.

It's rather disheartening and it made me reconsider much of my own ideals. I used to think social justice and feminism were great things, and that anyone who thought otherwise was obviously insane. Now I know otherwise.


Those values are still valid. It's just the serious amount of political correctness that's all over the place. People are seeing anti-women and discrimination everywhere, even if it isn't there. I don't even mind SJW that much in gaming. It's much more serious with political issues. I think I might even be called a racist in the future by ordering a black coffee in a restaurant.

What also rubs me the wrong way is those policor people aren't seeing the world as it is. They think sexy women portayal in video games is making men look at them as lust objects for example. Nope, it's the other way around. Man look at women like lust objects and game companies know that and make those games, because it sells. Simple as that. Nothing you change about that. Women aren't any better themselves btw. Ever heard them talk about men?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 19, 2014, 05:20:52 PM
Don't rush from one battle standard to another.

The problem with GG that you'll encounter in most spaces is that it is intimately tied with a lot of shit like:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/amazon-publishes-thinly-veiled-fantasy-of-gamergate-target-zoe-quinn/

And Felicia Day, and so on.

Trying to explain how you are a white supremacist but you aren't like THOSE white supremacists will pretty much sabotage things before you get a chance to explain how your approach isn't racist.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: crkrueger on December 19, 2014, 05:29:36 PM
Quote from: Imperator;805020
There is a thing that stumps me, and stumps me enormously. The narcissism of it all.

Look at the title of the OP: Fighting for a more ethical world. It's hard to conceive the amount of self-centeredness you need to have to think that "fixing" the journalism of your stupid hobby is going to make a more ethical world, instead of, dunno, teaching people not to be raging homophobe, racist, complete assholes over fucking videogames.

Developers get death threats over fixes in a patch of Call of Duty but the problem here is that some reviews may be dishonest.

Then gamers wonder why they have the image of idiotic assholes.


The whole "internet death threat" thing is just weird, both sides of any dustup do it, and I just don't get why.

Then again, I also don't understand why some people's response to murder, genocide, rape, misogyny, inequality and persecution of all kinds is to tweet about First World Entertainment Media while in line at StarBucks.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: trekkiebob on December 19, 2014, 05:45:08 PM
Here's the thing about #GamerGate:

Having a discussion about the ethics of video game journalism and pushing for more transparency therein: You have my support.

Using the above as a reason to threaten anyone with rape, murder, violence or harassment: Go fuck yourself you stupid piece of shit.

Not shutting down the people who ARE doing the the second things: The Pope song says it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIorwtJbhE

Regards,

TrekkieBOB
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 19, 2014, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: Will;805229
Don't rush from one battle standard to another.

The problem with GG that you'll encounter in most spaces is that it is intimately tied with a lot of shit like:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/amazon-publishes-thinly-veiled-fantasy-of-gamergate-target-zoe-quinn/

And Felicia Day, and so on.

Trying to explain how you are a white supremacist but you aren't like THOSE white supremacists will pretty much sabotage things before you get a chance to explain how your approach isn't racist.

By that logic, anyone opposed to Gamergate is a nazi apologist who thinks that gassing women and minorities is a pretty swell idea.

https://twitter.com/geordie_tait/status/532253390470791168

You don't want to be on the side that thinks that kind of horrible stuff do you?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 20, 2014, 12:40:21 AM
Okay guys I think we should try to respect what the original poster wanted in this topic instead of going on into a shit slinging contest.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on December 20, 2014, 12:55:29 AM
Quote from: TrekkieBOB;805231
Here's the thing about #GamerGate:

Having a discussion about the ethics of video game journalism and pushing for more transparency therein: You have my support.

Using the above as a reason to threaten anyone with rape, murder, violence or harassment: Go fuck yourself you stupid piece of shit.

Not shutting down the people who ARE doing the the second things: The Pope song says it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIorwtJbhE

Regards,

TrekkieBOB

It's a shame there isn't a group of GGs dedicated to reporting harassment that uses the hashtag on twitter and reddit.

Oh wait...there totally is.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on December 20, 2014, 02:25:35 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;805250
By that logic, anyone opposed to Gamergate is a nazi apologist who thinks that gassing women and minorities is a pretty swell idea.

https://twitter.com/geordie_tait/status/532253390470791168

You don't want to be on the side that thinks that kind of horrible stuff do you?


You are forgetting that intellectual honesty in a discussion is not in Will's bag of tricks.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Cosmic Mind on December 24, 2014, 03:00:35 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;805250
By that logic, anyone opposed to Gamergate is a nazi apologist who thinks that gassing women and minorities is a pretty swell idea.

https://twitter.com/geordie_tait/status/532253390470791168

You don't want to be on the side that thinks that kind of horrible stuff do you?


Jesus christ...that's just fucking horrible
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on December 24, 2014, 06:30:46 AM
Quote from: Cosmic Mind;805853
Jesus christ...that's just fucking horrible


Heh, that's pretty mild from what I've seen.

Guess who came out in favor of doxxing?  Give you a hint, it wasn't someone on the GG side of the fence.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 24, 2014, 09:10:00 PM
I love how Wil Wheaton is advocating no more anonymity on the Internet.

Yes, Chinese social activist fleeing gov't persecution, asking for basic civil and/or social rights; your cause is infinitely less important than my internet friends getting nasty messages.

F*** off to the Gulag, Liu! My friend with Blue hair got a salty message! :mad:
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Iosue on December 24, 2014, 09:17:55 PM
Quote from: Novastar;805969
I love how Wil Wheaton is advocating no more anonymity on the Internet.

Yes, Chinese social activist fleeing gov't persecution, asking for basic civil and/or social rights; your cause is infinitely less important than my internet friends getting nasty messages.

F*** off to the Gulag, Liu! My friend with Blue hair got a salty message! :mad:

Except that he's only advocating no more anonymity in gaming communities, and specifically notes the necessity of anonymity for folks like "Liu."

His suggestion may not be especially feasible, but he's certainly not saying what you're saying he's saying.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 25, 2014, 10:36:14 AM
Person protesting against corrupt government regime, needs anonymity.

Person sending death threat to developer because a gun in Call of Duty 2013 (http://kotaku.com/death-threats-follow-small-call-of-duty-tweak-888324886) now fires slightly slower, not so much.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2014, 02:48:00 AM
Quote from: Iosue;805972
Except that he's only advocating no more anonymity in gaming communities, and specifically notes the necessity of anonymity for folks like "Liu."

His suggestion may not be especially feasible, but he's certainly not saying what you're saying he's saying.


I think what he's saying is that the people he approves of deserve anonymity, and those grimy gamer plebs can fuck right off.

But I don't give Mr. Wheaton much benefit of the doubt nowadays.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 27, 2014, 03:29:28 AM
When did any nerd on the planet start caring what WESLEY thinks?

Shut up, Wesley.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 27, 2014, 04:36:08 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;806250
When did any nerd on the planet start caring what WESLEY thinks?

Shut up, Wesley.
"My name is Wil Wheaton; Jack Thompson can suck my balls!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwN76P4B6Ts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwN76P4B6Ts)
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/pax-07-wheaton-keynote-celebrates-social-gaming/1100-6177605/ (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/pax-07-wheaton-keynote-celebrates-social-gaming/1100-6177605/)
It's the keynote that launched Wheaton's Law: "Don't be a dick."

How far we have fallen, in 7-8 years...
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 27, 2014, 04:55:02 AM
Followed up by Dustin Diamond's "Don't be a vagina" I suppose
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bradford C. Walker on December 27, 2014, 06:03:41 PM
For the pro-GG side you can count on Sargon of Akkad to either produce his own stuff advancing the goal or covering others' efforts. His "This Week in Stupid" videos alone are hilarious.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 27, 2014, 07:22:56 PM
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;806342
For the pro-GG side you can count on Sargon of Akkad to either produce his own stuff advancing the goal or covering others' efforts. His "This Week in Stupid" videos alone are hilarious.


I like his stuff. Menaing I find it entertaining. I'm not one of those fellows that has to agree with everything a person says to find them entertaining. He's got a nice voice and a good sense of humour, and his opening video where he cuts together his critics's attacks on him is hilarious.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on December 27, 2014, 10:17:50 PM
I am not a follower of Sargon, but damn he does know his stuff.  His critics end up getting torn apart by him.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: MrHurst on December 29, 2014, 08:43:36 AM
Quote from: Iosue;805972
Except that he's only advocating no more anonymity in gaming communities, and specifically notes the necessity of anonymity for folks like "Liu."

His suggestion may not be especially feasible, but he's certainly not saying what you're saying he's saying.


It reeks of the "Well we need to do something" mindset that now delays me an extra half hour every time I fly. The same general mindset that started two wars in countries that as far as we can tell had nothing to do with the initial claims. The same mindset that makes me expect that I'll need two forms of ID, a recent piss test and proof of proper opinions before I'll be able to make asinine comments on gaming forums at some point.

Honestly, there are assholes in gaming, and you know what you do with them? You boot them. If it's your server, boot them. They come back and continue, ban them. Same thing with your gaming table, forums, what have you. Of course what people don't like is when you do it to the assholes they agree with, and in my experience they only way to keep the peace is by booting ALL the assholes, if you let one stick around because they're a long timer or have some excuse they'll just rot away at things until you're as bad off as you'd have been with every asshole you ever booted.

That said, if people are bitching about someone is doing over there... well, those people are probably assholes who are looking to be offended, I say boot them too. I don't have the time for drama anymore. I'll make sure my people are comfortable, odds are that's the same thing that group is doing, they're just very, very different from you. And probably assholes. But if they're doing that over there, you can play over here, and I can find my spot at some other table. No one needs to dictate anything to anyone, we just need to not be assholes to each other just because of disagreements and find the people we enjoy playing with. Takes some work, though.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 12:27:42 PM
I think horrible things breed in secrecy.

It's why I have mixed feelings about Anonymous 'outing' Klan folks -- I think the Klan deserves to face the light of day, but on the other hand right now this doxxing is a careless brutal hand. (Anonymous are fucking assholes half the time, so... yeah, vigilante justice? Meh)

On the other hand, there are times secrecy is absolutely necessary, like voting or informing on a totalitarian regime.

Personally, what I'd like to see is various media outlets that require open identification, and an opt-in approach. Which just requires a few services to go through the effort of trying it, and people to sign up.

I ALSO would like to see online harassment treated more seriously by law enforcement.
If I'm sending death threats to you over the internet, including photos of your house, that should be treated like doing the same via regular mail.

I think that will happen eventually, I just hope it doesn't require a pile of horrible examples before it does. (But it probably will)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 29, 2014, 01:14:01 PM
Quote from: Will;806741
I ALSO would like to see online harassment treated more seriously by law enforcement.
I don't think it's a problem with LE not taking the problem seriously; it's a problem of getting adequate funding and qualified individuals to enforce cyber-crime.

There's also the problem that, even in RL, death and rape threats really aren't illegal (unless you're POTUS). They're scuzzy as all hell, and can help you get an Order of Protection/Restraining Order (after which, continued contact can become actionable), but by themselves they're a "grey area" between Free Speech and Criminal Declaration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraining_order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraining_order)

*****

Breaking from that thought, editorial on GamePolitics that I found interesting:
http://gamepolitics.com/2014/12/29/editorial-gamergate-political-attitudes-part-1-movement-right-wing#.VKGPVF4ArA (http://gamepolitics.com/2014/12/29/editorial-gamergate-political-attitudes-part-1-movement-right-wing#.VKGPVF4ArA)
Despite allegations of GamerGate being a right-wing astroturf movement, most of it's members veer sharply as left libertarians (in this sample).

EDIT: For the record, this editorial is anecdotal. It takes some good steps for the data to be more scientific, but it is still not a scientific study. I've had some detractors try to conflate "here's an interesting editorial" to "here's some scientific data from the Pew Group" as equivalent; they are not. I believe the Pew Group is much more scientifically rigorous, and accept their data as more likely to be representative, than the editorials. Caveat Emptor.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 03:58:18 PM
Well, when I say 'serious' it extends back to the structures that support LE and their interest in funding such things, but yeah.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 29, 2014, 05:15:38 PM
Quote from: Will;806741
Personally, what I'd like to see is various media outlets that require open identification, and an opt-in approach. Which just requires a few services to go through the effort of trying it, and people to sign up.


It's been tried, though, and people have freaked the fuck out - not entirely unreasonably, I should add.

And then everyone went to facebook, which is totes different, because...

...um...

...look over there, it's a distraction!

Anyway.

Actual death threats (As in "I will kill you", "I'm bringing a gun to your talk", and the like) are something I'd consider much more of a threat to free speech than hosting companies saying "we're not going to host that here". You can always sell product somewhere else, or distribute your work in other ways online; the store portals are ultimately just a convenience.

But a death threat is silencing; it forces you to think "is what I'm saying worth potentially dying for, or should I shut up?"... there are some things worth dying for, and there are some things not worth dying for, but that doesn't make them without value.

Is it worth discussing the stories and characters in video games? Yeah, they're a genuinely new form of media, they should be taken just as seriously (And subjected to the same scrutinies) as older mediums. Is it worth dying over? No.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 05:40:09 PM
I'm continually surprised that anyone takes online death threats seriously
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ladybird on December 29, 2014, 06:20:41 PM
And I can't see any valid reason why death threats have became a standard part of internet vocabulary.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 06:24:01 PM
Anonymous whipped people up to send my sister's workplace death threats. They shut down internet services of her workplace and a children's hospital.

Shutting down a children's hospital's IT had an impact on preventing transmission of paperwork, imaging, and other stuff related to treating children.

While, as far as I'm aware of, no children were physically harmed as a result, it's not hard to see how events could have skewed that way.
Also, the stress and daily hardship these places suffered were significant.


So, one online death threat? Eh, probably not that big a deal, but it's hard to be sure.

Anonymous spinning the gun and seeing who gets targeted, and possibly vulnerable people pushed to suicide?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 06:31:08 PM
Quote from: Will;806804
Anonymous whipped people up to send my sister's workplace death threats. They shut down internet services of her workplace and a children's hospital.

Shutting down a children's hospital's IT had an impact on preventing transmission of paperwork, imaging, and other stuff related to treating children.


wow, do you have any links to news coverage of that?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 06:57:15 PM
http://www.boston.com/news/local/2014/03/28/state-police-investigating-threats-against-agency-involved-with-justina-pelletier/fTFflhP08JCyJwoWVCeZnO/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/04/24/hacker-group-anonymous-targets-children-hospital-over-justina-pelletier-case/jSd3EE5VVHbSGTJdS5YrfM/story.html

http://www.scmagazine.com/anonymous-might-be-culprit-behind-apparent-ddos-attack-on-childrens-hospital/article/344259/

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/04/25/childrens/bYG3BPl4vqnVQIsyNcqwyN/story.html

Of course, the commentary is that Anonymous generally frowns on it, it's only a fringe element.

Given my history of commentary about 'woops, our fringe element is being horrible but that's totally not us,' you can imagine my feelings about this.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 07:06:24 PM
Well, Anonymous isnt a group or a movement, its just people who frequent 4chan. t'd be like if a couple of posters from therpgsite went and did something, if the rpgsite posting community was about 100,000x or more the size. Ive seen Anonymous do great things and horrible things. Heck, I was an Anon up until Boxxy.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 07:07:22 PM
This might give some of you insight toward my attitudes toward GamerGate.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
Hm, actually going through those links, its not actually as cut and dry as that. Apparently the threats against the hospital were made after a child was stolen from her family?  Reading up on Justina Pelletier now.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 29, 2014, 09:08:29 PM
Quote from: Will;806813
This might give some of you insight toward my attitudes toward GamerGate.


I hate to keep beating this horse, but you keep trotting it out so...

How do you feel about the transphobia, racism, doxxing, harrassment and death threats from people who identify as anti-gamergate?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 09:33:39 PM
So, interesting stuff. Appears this story is at the heart of Anonymous's targeting of the Boston Children's hospital..

Quote from: Philip Hickey, PhD


March 6, 2014

Justina Pelletier is the 15-year-old girl who is at the center of a dispute between her parents and the Psychiatry Department at Boston Children’s Hospital.

Justina, who lived with her parents in Connecticut, had been diagnosed with mitochondrial disease, a rare and debilitating illness, and had been receiving treatment for this from Mark Korson, MD, Chief of Metabolism Services at Tufts Medical Center in Boston.

In February of last year, Justina’s parents took her to Boston Children’s Hospital with flu-like symptoms.  Dr. Korson had recommended an admission to Boston Children’s so that Justina could be seen by Alex Flores, MD, a gastrointestinal specialist who had recently transferred from Tufts to BCH.

But instead, Justina’s care was taken over by the psychiatry department.  She was “diagnosed” with somatoform disorder (“it’s-all-in-your-head”), and BCH reported the parents to the state of Massachusetts for medical child abuse.  The complaint was taken by the Department of Children and Families (DCF), and within 24 hours Judge Joseph Johnston awarded custody of Justina to the Massachusetts DCF, and ruled that she had to stay at BCH.

The parents continued to press for Justina’s release from BCH, but were hampered in these efforts by a gag order that Judge Johnston had imposed.

In January of 2014, having spent almost a year in psychiatric care at BCH (nine months of which were in a locked ward), Justina was transferred to the Wayside Youth and Family Support Network in Framingham, Massachusetts.  She was still in the custody of the DCF, and still under the care of psychiatrists at Boston’s Children’s hospital.  In February of 2014, Justina’s father, Lou Pelletier, alarmed at the deterioration in his daughter’s medical condition, decided to break the gag order, and go public, despite the risk of imprisonment.  There was a huge outcry, and Massachusetts child protective services stated on February 28, 2014, that they are actively working to return Justina to Connecticut and the care of Tufts.

“The timetable for the shift of the teenager to her home state has not been set, and it is unclear just how much the Massachusetts Department of Children and Families is retreating from the girl’s case. But Loftus [DCF spokesperson] said child-protection officials from both states, the juvenile judge handling the case, and lawyers for the parents are actively working on identifying a new placement in Connecticut. He would not say what places are under consideration, but in cases like this, the child could be returned back to her home, or placed in a foster home or a residential treatment facility.

If she were to live at her family’s home in West Hartford, Conn., child-protection officials in that state, who would likely oversee the case, would likely demand that the girl receive services at home or that she attend a day program.”

Because of the gag order, which was in place since November 17, 2013, and the official secrecy that normally attends these matters, it’s difficult to establish all the facts.  But the gist of the conflict seems to be that the psychiatrists at BCH disputed the diagnosis of mitochondrial disease.  (In fact, there are indications that they may even have disputed whether such a disease even exists – an extraordinary accusation coming from psychiatry!)  They also, apparently, formed the belief that the parents were dysfunctionally invested in the notion that Justina was gravely ill, and were subjecting her to needless medicines and treatments.  During the eleven months she was at BCH, the psychiatrists placed very strict and stringent limits on how much contact the teenager could have with her family.  There’s a copy of a January 8, 2014, letter here from Kathleen Higgins, RN, a former BCH employee, to the DCF Commission.  The letter provides a great deal of insightful background.

The parents protested vigorously that Justina had been taken off the medicines for mitochondrial disease, and they stated that her physical condition had deteriorated markedly during her stay at BCH.

Discussion

Somatoform disorder is a DSM-IV term.  It refers to a group of psychiatric “diagnoses,” the common feature of which is “…the presence of physical symptoms that suggest a general medical condition…and are not fully explained by a general medical condition…”  (DSM-IV, p 445).  In addition, “…there is no diagnosable general medical condition to fully account for the physical symptoms.” (ibid)  Like all psychiatric “diagnoses,” it has no explanatory value and is nothing more than a destructive and unreliably applied label.

So essentially what’s happened here is that Dr. Korson, a pediatrician who is board-certified in Clinical Biochemical Genetics, an associate professor at Tufts University School of Medicine, and a specialist in mitochondrial diseases, has been treating Justina for about three years for mitochondrial disease.  (According to the site MitoAction, “Dr. Korson is universally recognized as an expert in clinical practice for mitochondrial patients.”)  He sends her to BCH for a gastrointestinal consult with Dr. Flores.  And within 24 hours, the psychiatry department hijacks her, rejects the mitochondrial disease diagnosis, substitutes a “diagnosis” of its own, files a medical abuse report with DCF, and supports a DCF petition to have Justina made a ward of the state.  Prior to all this, Justina had no mental health history of any kind.

As soon as they realized what was happening, the parents sought to remove Justina from BCH – but when the teenager became a ward of the state, that door was closed, and the judge ordered that Justina be kept at BCH.

Justina’s case has focused a great deal of attention on these matters generally.  One of the points that has emerged fairly clearly is that BCH’s procedure for pursuing a commitment of this kind is a well-oiled machine.  The BCH physicians and staff on the one hand, and the DCF staff on the other, work closely to prepare their cases, and the courts are usually cooperative.  Psychiatric evidence is afforded a high measure of credibility and deference, and, as in this case, the child is routinely ordered to remain at BCH.

The problem with all of this is that BCH stands to make a great deal of money on every child that is court-ordered to remain in their care.  The conflict of interest is glaring.  It’s like a judge routinely sending convicted criminals to a private prison that he himself happens to own.  The difference is that any judge who engaged in activity of this sort would be looking at criminal charges and disbarment.  But in psychiatry, this sort of thing is common.

The matter is particularly compelling in that reports are emerging that BCH tends to pursue these kinds of court orders in cases where the family has “good insurance.”  Justina was kept at BCH for eleven months.  I have seen no reports as to the size of the bill, but I’m sure it wasn’t trivial.

BCH and Harvard

David R. DeMaso, MD, is the head of psychiatry at BCH.  He is also a professor at Harvard, and is a member of Harvard’s Psychiatry Department Executive Committee. He is evidently highly regarded at the University, and has his own Harvard Catalyst page.  There’s a tab on this page labeled “Similar People,” and one of the people listed as “similar” to Dr. DeMaso is our old friend Joseph Biederman, MD, the eminent inventor of pediatric bipolar disorder.  This is the bogus diagnosis that legitimized the prescribing of neuroleptic drugs to children as young as two years old for temper tantrums.  Even some psychiatrists spoke out against this spurious and destructive activity, but the practice continues.  The fact that Dr. DeMaso would allow Dr. Biederman’s name to remain on his Similar People tab seems noteworthy.  There is also a “connections”  page on Harvard Catalyst, listing three publications co-authored by Dr. DeMaso and Dr. Biederman.

Dr. Biederman is on record as promising Johnson & Johnson a positive result for their drug Risperdal if they would fund his study.  Why would any reputable physician allow someone like that to remain on his “Similar People” tab?

I did a PubMed search to see if there were other links between BCH psychiatrists and Joseph Biederman.  In addition to the DeMaso publications, I discovered papers co-authored by Joseph Biederman and at least two other members of the BCH Department of Psychiatry “Leadership Team:”  Joseph Gonzalez-Heydrich, MD (7 articles, as recent at 2012); and Deborah Waber, MD (3 articles, as recent at 2012).

Public Outcry

None of Justina’s story would have come to light had there not been an extensive and vigorous public outcry.  This in turn would not have happened if Justina’s father, Lou, had not breached the court’s gag order.  The fact that our courts can effectively prohibit a parent, on pain of imprisonment, from speaking out against his child’s enforced psychiatric treatment ought to be a huge concern.  Our legislative and legal systems have been hoodwinked by psychiatry for too long.  The right to free speech is our most fundamental political freedom.  The fact that a state court would so cavalierly suspend such a right to promote the agenda of BCH’s psychiatry department suggests a measure of partiality on the part of the court in an area where the child’s welfare ought to be the paramount consideration.  There had never been the slightest indication that Justina’s parents had been abusing or neglecting her.  In fact, they brought her to BCH on the advice of the child’s physician to get help for the flu-like symptoms.  By any conventional standards, they were being dutiful and attendant.  The gag order was clearly an attempt to prevent them from drawing adverse publicity to BCH’s psychiatry department.  Courts are supposed to be impartial.  Why would the court in this case have assumed that the psychiatry department’s motives were benign, that its “diagnoses” were valid and accurate, and that its practices were judicious and efficacious?  Why did the court not recognize the financial conflict of interest when it ordered that Justina be kept involuntarily in the locked psychiatric ward at BCH?

BCH’s psychiatrists kept Justina in a locked psychiatric ward for nine months.  Apparently it never occurred to them that they might have made an error, or that they had acted too hastily. Psychiatry seldom engages in anything even remotely akin to critical self-scrutiny  .  They have resisted the parents’ protests at every step of the way, and have been backed throughout by the court.  It is only because of the public outrage that the facts are emerging.  Massachusetts’ Department of Public Health has called for a full investigation of the matter.  One can readily imagine the kinds of pressures that will be brought to bear to whitewash the entire affair.  Let us all, individually and collectively, do what we can to ensure that this does not happen.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 29, 2014, 11:46:35 PM
Yes, and keep in mind that everyone on the 'other side' of the issue is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN from discussing any of the particulars. Also, the article you quoted is, uh... selective about its reporting.

You will never hear about anything other than the parents' side of the story, because of HIPAA, just to start with.

Meanwhile, while the real beef of folks might be, say, the judge who ruled in the case or the justice system, it's hospitals and caregivers who were targeted.

Ratman: I've made my points and stated my stance at excruciating length. If you really care, you can go through the closed GamerGate thread.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 29, 2014, 11:59:45 PM
Quote from: Will;806851
Yes, and keep in mind that everyone on the 'other side' of the issue is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN from discussing any of the particulars. Also, the article you quoted is, uh... selective about its reporting.

You will never hear about anything other than the parents' side of the story, because of HIPAA, just to start with.


Be that as it may, we know the end result of the story, which shows that the actions of the others involved were admittedly wrong, if that wasnt immediately obvious.

Quote
Meanwhile, while the real beef of folks might be, say, the judge who ruled in the case or the justice system, it's hospitals and caregivers who were targeted.


On the one hand, indeed, I agree that I don't really see targeting the entire hospital per se as a moral act of retribution, on the other I dont see what you mean the "real beef" is the judge or justice system, as it was doctors at the hospital who involved the legal system in the first place.

But I'm not informed enough on the subject to defend Anon, or to place specific unadultarated blame on any one side. I'm merely pointing out its not a black and white issue of "evil Anons harassing a children's hospital". More accurately it seems like both groups thought they were doing good, and they were probably both wrong.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 30, 2014, 12:12:56 AM
Except Wayside was also targeted, because Justina Pelletier was sent there. They had pretty much nothing to do with the decision process.

Also, everyone at Children's Hospital who WEREN'T involved, and are trying to deal with kids with cancer and other problems.

Mob justice isn't justice.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 30, 2014, 01:03:31 AM
Quote from: Will;806855
Except Wayside was also targeted, because Justina Pelletier was sent there. They had pretty much nothing to do with the decision process. Also, everyone at Children's Hospital who WEREN'T involved, and are trying to deal with kids with cancer and other problems.


Sure, I guess at this point I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I dont condone Anon's actions, I also don't condone the actions of anyone else involved.

Quote
Mob justice isn't justice.


No its not. But then the justice system isnt justice either. So what we're seeing is a whole bunch of not justice.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: MrHurst on December 30, 2014, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;806798
I'm continually surprised that anyone takes online death threats seriously


Some are perfectly serious, but most are like my old collection of them. Angry little keyboard warriors attempting to intimidate someone out of doing something they don't like. Which describes a great deal of the internet, but you can't really discount the psychos completely.

Quote from: Ladybird;806803
And I can't see any valid reason why death threats have became a standard part of internet vocabulary.


Because the people on the other end can't kick your ass for them. A whole lot is acceptable when you don't think people know who you are. Which is itself a lousy assumption even now. You'd be surprised how people back down when you drop them their last name or some other bit of personal information they don't think you know. Not being a complete ass I generally take them through what I did to find it and explain to them why being a screaming twat is a bad idea at any time not just in real life and move along with my day. If you wouldn't say it to someone right in front of you, don't say it on the internet. Easy rule.

A better rule is if you wouldn't put it on a billboard don't say it on the internet, but people find that harder to grasp and I'm starting to wonder if kids know what billboards are.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 30, 2014, 01:23:26 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;806798
I'm continually surprised that anyone takes online death threats seriously


Remember this?

What I'm saying is online death threats can really do harm at the hands of amorphous unlead movements, and an example.

Even if occasionally they target people you don't like.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on December 30, 2014, 01:57:16 PM
Anyone who thinks online death threats shouldn't be taken seriously hasn't been paying attention in the past week or so, when a guy made online death threats and then proceeded to follow through with them, assassinating two police officers in NY.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 30, 2014, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: Will;806933
Remember this?

What I'm saying is online death threats can really do harm at the hands of amorphous unlead movements, and an example.


The reactions to them do harm. Alerting the police if necessary and then getting on with your business isn't going to harm anything.

Quote
Even if occasionally they target people you don't like.


Who they target is irrelevant. I'm not supporting death threats of anyone, whether I like them or not. I'm saying they are idiotic, 99% the time the acts of children or manchilds who think internet anonimity gives them free reign to be immature dickheads. What I'm saying is giving them validation is self-destructive.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on December 30, 2014, 02:31:38 PM
And I'm saying 'don't give them validation' when they drive vulnerable people to suicide or turn out to presage actual horrific violence (police, the MRA nutcase) is being a little flip.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on December 30, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
Quote from: Will;806947
And I'm saying 'don't give them validation' when they drive vulnerable people to suicide or turn out to presage actual horrific violence (police, the MRA nutcase) is being a little flip.


In regards to the police shooting, yes there are going to be those 1% of occurences that actually presage some nutjob doing something. That isn't typical. This isnt to say that police shouldn't be notified (I believe I already said they should) or that the police shouldnt follow up to the point they think they're a credible threat (or even if not, prosecuting them). But reactions beyond sensible measures are always going to not only validate that making online threats causes effects, encouraging them, but also create self-destructive behaviour. Panic is never the right reaction, to anything, ever. ITs the loss of maturity and intelligence to emotion. Which is pretty much every problem in the world in a nutshell.

For example, giving them validation and them driving people to suicide is basically the same thing. Reacting to things always makes them worse.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 31, 2014, 03:18:26 PM
Quote from: Will;806933
What I'm saying is online death threats can really do harm at the hands of amorphous unlead movements, and an example.

Even if occasionally they target people you don't like.


On this, I agree with you. But I am wary of any group of people who form a tribe mentality and consider their cause righteous enough to justify horrible behavior towards the "bad guys".
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on December 31, 2014, 04:01:40 PM
Which neither side is clean of (though I tend to think it's a problem with anon's and trolls, rather than the good actors of either side. That said, painting your opposition as solely composed of the bad actors, isn't very intellectually honest, either...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5zKunaiCQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5zKunaiCQw) (Warning: Salty Language! In electronic form!)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 01, 2015, 11:27:36 AM
Okay for all those who are saying what about the journalists getting harassed I have a question for you.  What about decent none harassing members of gamergate that do in fact get harass by anti-gamergate.  Even some of the journalists that you are defending had made death threats, doxing, and just general harassment towards these none harassing gamergate people.  Why are you willing to put a blind eye to that harassment, but continue to complain about the harassment that the journalists receive?  Can you not see how that looks like a double standard and makes you look like a hypocrite?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: rawma on January 01, 2015, 04:55:25 PM
Quote from: Will;806933
online death threats can really do harm at the hands of amorphous unlead movements


I got all excited about murderous undines summoning formless undead (creeping grave mold? gaseous form vampires? level draining ghostly miasmas?), and then I looked again and realized I need better reading glasses or a larger screen. :(

Or just to stop reading GamerGate threads.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 01, 2015, 07:23:15 PM
Quote from: rawma;807277
I got all excited about murderous undines summoning formless undead (creeping grave mold? gaseous form vampires? level draining ghostly miasmas?), and then I looked again and realized I need better reading glasses or a larger screen. :(

Or just to stop reading GamerGate threads.


Every time, EVERY time! I'm in a used book store and I happen to pass by a copy of the Sword of Shannara and catch a glimpse of the title out of the corner of my eye, I always thinks for a moment that its a book called "The Sword of Shanana".

I'm convined, somewhere in Lucien's Library is a book called the Sword of Shanana that is actually the most awesome post-Tolkien fantasy novel ever written.
But here in the real world we're stuck with Terry Brooks :(

ANYways, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that far worse than anything done by Gamergate or Anti-gamergate amorphous unlead movements are forum threads ABOUT Gamergate.

I miss the days when the biggest flamewars were on threads about Bigfoot.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Nexus on January 02, 2015, 01:28:15 AM
Now I desperately want someone to write "The Sword of Shanana".
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 02, 2015, 07:50:20 AM
The Sword of Sha-Na-Na (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmbe6jObMuc)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 02, 2015, 11:19:52 AM
Good blog post from Tech Divinity on GG. (http://communitysoul.net/2015/01/tech-divinity-gamergate-my-witness-to-hope/)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on January 02, 2015, 02:06:31 PM
GamerGate on Spiked's "People of the Year" list (http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/trail-blazers-risk-takers-and-rule-breakers-our-people-of-the-year/#.VKbrySvF8S6)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 02, 2015, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;807225
Okay for all those who are saying what about the journalists getting harassed I have a question for you.  What about decent none harassing members of gamergate that do in fact get harass by anti-gamergate.  Even some of the journalists that you are defending had made death threats, doxing, and just general harassment towards these none harassing gamergate people.  Why are you willing to put a blind eye to that harassment, but continue to complain about the harassment that the journalists receive?  Can you not see how that looks like a double standard and makes you look like a hypocrite?


Well you see, you see, those are white cis shits claiming harassment, and if it's a PoC ( a term I find incredibly offensive), it's a sock puppet for a whit cis shit.  Acceptable targets man!

In all seriousness though, it's rather telling how one sided the press coverage of this whole thing plays truth to exactly the complaints #GG has about journalism.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Thornhammer on January 02, 2015, 11:51:33 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;807300
Every time, EVERY time! I'm in a used book store and I happen to pass by a copy of the Sword of Shannara and catch a glimpse of the title out of the corner of my eye, I always thinks for a moment that its a book called "The Sword of Shanana".


It's a singing sword, that covers hits of the 1950s!
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 03, 2015, 12:01:43 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807419
PoC ( a term I find incredibly offensive)


What is a PoC?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 03, 2015, 12:20:49 AM
Quote from: Snowman0147;807521
What is a PoC?


Person of Colour, aka coloured person. You know, a racist term back under a sjw label that's totally ok.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Shipyard Locked on January 03, 2015, 07:53:19 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807523
Person of Colour, aka coloured person. You know, a racist term back under a sjw label that's totally ok.


We used to discourage students from saying things like that at my school (English for adults) because of the racist vibe it gave off. This was quite frustrating for them, because it's a common thing to say in some of their languages. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to note the baffling rules of American political correctness are shifting again.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Aos on January 03, 2015, 11:44:46 AM
So, anyone else need to replace the "S" "J" "W" on thier keyboard?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 03, 2015, 12:00:43 PM
Quote from: Gib;807607
So, anyone else need to replace the "S" "J" "W" on thier keyboard?


I'd rather just call the 60's and demand they take their slacktivists back.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: JamesV on January 03, 2015, 01:22:59 PM
Quote from: Gib;807607
So, anyone else need to replace the "S" "J" "W" on thier keyboard?

Only because secret Janus worshipping cults are important to my game's setting.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on January 03, 2015, 02:34:45 PM
Everytime I see SJW I now read it as "See Jesus Weep"
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 04, 2015, 08:11:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;807610
I'd rather just call the 60's and demand they take their slacktivists back.


See, I associate the 60s with actual activism. Human rights marches, anti-war protests, and feminism back when it was something I supported 100%
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Nexus on January 04, 2015, 08:16:00 PM
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745940-Chris-Kluwe-spent-last-night-defending-trans-women-from-brutal-attacks-by-gamers

So what is this all about? Is there another side the story?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 04, 2015, 08:24:36 PM
Quote from: Nexus;807875
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745940-Chris-Kluwe-spent-last-night-defending-trans-women-from-brutal-attacks-by-gamers

So what is this all about? Is there another side the story?


An anecdotal claim with no proof is what that is. And if you ask for some kind of proof, you'll be harassed and banned. So its something to dismiss offhand.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 04, 2015, 08:34:47 PM
Can you show that to people who are not signed into rpg.net?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 04, 2015, 08:39:36 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;807886
Can you show that to people who are not signed into rpg.net?

The OP:


Quote from: Bootleg Girl
Over the last few days, GamerGate has stepped up the transphobia side of their harassment to arguably one of their main points. I don't want to start a second GG thread, that's not what this post is about, but just for context, GG operations have included trying to flood an anti-suicide trans hotline with calls, targeting teens with specific harassment who they judge to be suicidal, and doxxing a trans woman who exposed their links to pedophilia. While a ton of people have rallied to the aid of the trans community in this - the Literally Whos, aka the cis women targeted by GG first, Arthur Chu - the person who I really want to single out is Chris Kluwe. Former Vikings punter, made all that noise basically sacrificing his career to fight homophobia in the NFL. I'd never seen him speak out on trans issues until last night, when he joined a number of us trying to talk a trans game developer out of a very public suicide attempt.

Chris is an important figure because he absolutely exemplifies the toxicity of the mindset that many of us raised as geek boys grew up with. Guys who are skilled at sports are "jocks," they're meatheads, and most of all, they're hetero manly boys who "take" all the women. They hate us for being different. I bought into all that shit, and it _was never true._
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 04, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;807874
See, I associate the 60s with actual activism. Human rights marches, anti-war protests, and feminism back when it was something I supported 100%


You are right, I was making a cheap quip. I think that a lot of this SJW pearl clutching is slactivism where the protestors can feel good about themselves without any true effort from them.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bren on January 04, 2015, 09:17:18 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;807896
You are right, I was making a cheap quip. I think that a lot of this SJW pearl clutching is slactivism where the protestors can feel good about themselves without any true effort from them.
It's the moral equivalent of doing nothing more than wearing a peace sign in the late 60s and early 70s.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 04, 2015, 09:28:18 PM
Quote from: Bren;807897
It's the moral equivalent of doing nothing more than wearing a peace sign in the late 60s and early 70s.


I went to High School in Santa Maria, California near where the Casmalia Toxic Waste Superfund site is. If you were strapped for cash and wanted to score some good pot, you would go out there and hang out with the hippie protestors (hippies always had the best pot back then) and they would get you stoned for free out of protestor solidarity. Now it did not matter that work was actually being funded and accomplished to clean up the site and the protests just got in the way of the clean-up job, the hippies were sticking it to the man!

These SJWs and their crap about GamerGate being an emotionally toxic environment are just as myopic as those hippies at Casmalia were. They cannot see that they are fighting for the wrong side with the SJW's because they believe they ARE STICKING IT TO THE MAN. :rolleyes:
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Nexus on January 04, 2015, 09:41:30 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;807889
The OP:


Thanks!
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bren on January 04, 2015, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;807900
I went to High School in Santa Maria, California near where the Casmalia Toxic Waste Superfund site is.
Wasn't the Casmalia Toxic Waste protests circa 1985 and later? I'm suprised people in California were still calling people hippies in 1985. It sounds anachronistic.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 04, 2015, 10:22:09 PM
Quote from: Bren;807905
Wasn't the Casmalia Toxic Waste protests circa 1985 and later? I'm suprised people in California were still calling people hippies in 1985. It sounds anachronistic.


So were the protestors, so the shoe fit.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 04, 2015, 11:07:55 PM
As a person who sympathize with gamergate people I can say I had never heard of that.  At worst it could be asshole trolls posing as gamergate despite the fact that is a major taboo which would expel those assholes from the gamergate movement.  Yes gamergate has rules and breaking them means your no longer part of the gamergate movement.  Rules such as don't harass, don't doxx, and all that good shit that makes you a polite member of internet society.  At middle these are asshole trolls not disguising themselves and the social justice crowd just believe it is gamergate.  Best case is every thing is a lie.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Nexus on January 04, 2015, 11:13:49 PM
While I don't really have much of a dog in this fight (Honestly, I barely know what the Hell people are fighting so intensely about) I think the rpg.net policy on the matter is ridiculous. Allowing one side of the argument while aggressively punishing anyone who so much as implies they hold the wrong position is truly a dick move as is dubbing something that, at the end of the day is pretty damn minor a "Hate Group" is posturing for Social Justice cred, nothing more.

But its their site and they can run it how they want. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 04, 2015, 11:23:08 PM
That is the thing.  These social justice warriors have the media on their side so they get the ability to shut down the opposing force and slander them all they want.  RPG.net is just one more media outlet for them to use.

Though to be fair gamergate does have supporters.  Mainly youtube users, people who dig for truth, game developers, and honest game critics.  Total Biscuit is one of the most highly rated game critic and reviewer in the internet as we all know it.  The man is brutally honest and had refused bribes from publishers countless of times.  He tries to make his reviews as unbiased as possible and if he does have a biased he will flat out tell you at the start of his video.  That man has more integrity, love, and respect from the gaming community than most gaming review sites combine.  He is voted number one critic in steam and won a award.  You know what side he is on?  Gamergate.

Fact is that man isn't stupid and he does dig deeper than most reviewers are willing to do.  If a game sucks he is going to explain it to you why the game sucks and how it could be better.  He wouldn't had chosen to side with gamergate without a damn good reason.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: jeff37923 on January 05, 2015, 12:04:30 AM
This bit of the aforementioned thread caught my attention.

Quote from: Carmen;18617385
Is the game developer ok?


Quote from: Bootleg Girl;18617533
I believe she is still alive. She's not okay, and hasn't been for a long time - she needs mental health and medical help, which was made impossible by transphobic, pre-GG trolls targeting her crowdfunding business and getting her funds confiscated by IndieGoGo because she used the name she goes by and not her legal name.


Once you get past the slanted reportage, it sounds like this person was not being hounded because they are transgender via GG as much as it looks like they were hounded because they were trying to defraud crowdfunders using IndieGoGo. If we had some actual names, maybe this could be investigated properly and not become another slanderous clickbait hit piece.

EDIT: In full disclosure, Bootleg Girl may be better known as Something Else, who I do not believe is a very credible source.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;807921

In full disclosure, Bootleg Girl may be better known as Something Else, who I do not believe is a very credible source.


!!!

Well, that's all I needed to know. That dishonest, self-loathing, mentally disturbed freak is pretty much the poster child for dishonest slactivism for the sake of attention.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 05, 2015, 12:29:34 AM
Motes and beams. I've seen antis use "tranny" as a slur to attack female GG supporters.

Now, in a debate with any kind of honesty, we might say that there are a few unsavory types on both sides, but for these SJW types, honesty is not one of their virtues. So transphobia on the side of the antis is dismissed or ignored, and trolling from people, not even those calling themselves GGers is "Proof that the whole thing is rotten!"

Anywhoodle, this blaming of GG for attacks on trans persons, I'm reserving most of my judgement until more info comes out, but in the meantime, I'm of the suspicion that it's simply an attempt to attach transphobia to the GG movement without any direct evidence.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Nexus on January 05, 2015, 12:40:35 AM
This whole thing is such a wonderful example of Online Tribalism: the way high tech monkeys like us fling our crap at rival troops.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 05, 2015, 01:26:41 AM
So this being the first I've heard of it, is there any proof of this?o
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 01:42:00 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807932
So this being the first I've heard of it, is there any proof of this?o


Of course not. And if anyone asks, they'll be banned.

So, in resorting to Google I've found this so far:

Quote from: The Spideygirl Blog

[Update: Additional e-mails have been added regarding the date of the firing.] Allistar Pinsof, a former writer for Destructoid, has come forward after dealing with a year of turmoil and frustratio…
Holy shit.  Gamergate bomb drop.  TLDR version.

Pre-op transsexual sets up IndieGoGo under pretense of “life saving surgery”.  Game journos support and signal boost the IndieGoGo.  Actual surgery is SRS.
Journalist Allistar Pinsof feels ethical need expose the fraudulent IndieGoGo, unfortunately outing her as trans.
IndieGoGo cancels the donation drive because of fraudulent information, as per their ToS.
The trans woman, unfortunately, attempts suicide on a live stream.  She is saved and put on suicide watch.
Pinsof profusely apologizes, as his actions caused her to attempt suicide.
Later, Pinsof actually helps this woman form and do a legit donation drive for her SRS.
The Game Journos Pro discuss in detail with one another how to handle him and, eventually, decide to fire and black list him.  This is collusion, as it has competitors actively discussing and influencing somebody’s job position.  Using this list to promote a secret blacklist in the industry is beyond unethical and in many states flat out illegal.


and that led me to this:

Who Owns a Woman's Truth? (http://quinnae.com/2013/05/14/at-the-edge-of-night-who-owns-a-womans-truth/)


and this:

Destructoid Writer Suspended for outing trans* woman who held fraudulent fundraiser for SRS (http://pixelenemy.com/destructoid-writer-suspended-for-outing-trans-woman-who-held-fraudulent-fundraiser-for-srs/)

Still researching, but assuming this is the events being referenced, I've yet to come across any Gamergate connections
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 05, 2015, 02:45:06 AM
Perhaps because there is no connection and the social justice warriors flat out lied about that connection.  It isn't the first time they lied and manipulated people to win support.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 03:05:39 AM
Quote from: Snowman0147;807937
Perhaps because there is no connection and the social justice warriors flat out lied about that connection.  It isn't the first time they lied and manipulated people to win support.


Well, again, if its SomethingElse, thats pretty much their M.O.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 05, 2015, 03:27:58 AM
Their reputation proceeds them.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on January 05, 2015, 10:06:54 AM
Quote from: Nexus;807930
This whole thing is such a wonderful example of Online Tribalism: the way high tech monkeys like us fling our crap at rival troops.


At this point I'd prefer the traditional version.


OOK! OOK! OOK OOK!  
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: MrHurst on January 05, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
Quote
Pre-op transsexual sets up IndieGoGo under pretense of “life saving surgery”. Game journos support and signal boost the IndieGoGo. Actual surgery is SRS.


Gah, had an argument with someone over this exact turn of terminology a few years back and only really held to the point because I knew what people's reactions would be if they found out the vaguely defined surgery was SRS. Didn't ever want to be proved right on that one. There are folks who consider it life saving surgery, from the sounds of things the person running the indiegogo campaign was one of those folks.

It isn't GG trolls who did this, it's people who just don't see the surgery as the deal that it can be to others. Hence I encourage people to fully disclose what they're doing with the money rather than hiding behind a nebulous life saving procedure. Though I will say none of the folks who have done it that way have ever gotten the money that I'm aware of, at least none of them got nailed for fraud. And legally speaking using a anything but your legal name for such purposes is fraud, and claiming it to be a life saving procedure could be argued if someone really wanted to ream you.

Doesn't make the fall out much less sad to me though.

And yes, Bootleg is Else.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 02:54:55 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;807939
Well, again, if its SomethingElse, thats pretty much their M.O.


'their'?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on January 05, 2015, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: Will;807983
'their'?

You're not one of those people who throw a shit fit whenever people use a plural pronoun for a singular antecedent are you?

Only tightass grammar nazis get really offput by that anymore.  Now it's a pretty common occurrence in the English language, and has been for a while, and nobody really cares.

I mean, do you get upset if someone says, "Everybody should take their seat"?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 03:25:07 PM
No, I'm one of those people who gives people the stinkeye when they can't bring themselves to refer to trans folks as the gender they identify as.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on January 05, 2015, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: Will;807987
No, I'm one of those people who gives people the stinkeye when they can't bring themselves to refer to trans folks as the gender they identify as.

OH, so you're one of those people who instead of recognizing an extremely common usage of the word, you'll automatically assume he's anti-trans by intentionally refusing to use the right pronoun?

People like you are just as big of the problem as those who actually do spout bigoted things, because you assume bigotry in things that aren't, effectively shutting down any conversation and painting anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot.

*Edit* I'd rather have stuck with my original assumption that you were a grammar nazi douchebag.  But your clarification makes my opinion of you even lower.  At least the grammar nazis have some technical legitimacy to that complaint.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Necrozius on January 05, 2015, 03:38:14 PM
Are there many other Indigogo campaigns for life-saving surgery? If there are, then I'm a little upset that someone used that reason dishonestly unless he/she really DID need this operation in a life/death situation.

The one(s) who found out the truth should have approached the individual first and encouraged them to come out honestly to their funders. I mean, before reporting them and "forcing" them to come out, so to speak.

Everyone appreciates honesty. Misleading people, even for good intentions, is still inherently wrong. Especially if there are others out there with a REAL need for a life-saving operation.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bren on January 05, 2015, 03:46:26 PM
Quote from: Will;807987
No, I'm one of those people who gives people the stinkeye when they can't bring themselves to refer to trans folks as the gender they identify as.
Your scolding response assumes that the writer knows (a) that SomethingElse is a trans folk, (b) what pronoun SomethingElse prefers for reference, and (c) intentionally used a different pronoun. Why would you assume all three things?

Despite recognizing the screen name from RPGnet, I certainly don't know (a) or (b) about the person using the name SomethingElse.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;807988
OH, so you're one of those people who instead of recognizing an extremely common usage of the word, you'll automatically assume he's anti-trans by intentionally refusing to use the right pronoun?

No, I asked for clarification. My response to you was clarifying my request for clarification.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;807988
People like you are just as big of the problem as those who actually do spout bigoted things, because you assume bigotry in things that aren't, effectively shutting down any conversation and painting anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot.

*Edit* I'd rather have stuck with my original assumption that you were a grammar nazi douchebag.  But your clarification makes my opinion of you even lower.  At least the grammar nazis have some technical legitimacy to that complaint.

I'd rather you stop being a fucking asshole and looking for excuses to slag on people rather than, you know, grow the fuck up and ask.


And hey, you folks nailing attributes to 'social justice warriors'? Look in a fucking mirror and take the beam out of your anus.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: Bren;807991
Your scolding response assumes that the writer knows (a) that SomethingElse is a trans folk, (b) what pronoun SomethingElse prefers for reference, and (c) intentionally used a different pronoun. Why would you assume all three things?

Despite recognizing the screen name from RPGnet, I certainly don't know (a) or (b) about the person using the name SomethingElse.


My response was 'their?', asking the poster what he meant.

If Tristram had actually said 'I don't know whether this person is male or female,' then I'd go 'ok' and move on.

But you go right ahead and assume the worst.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 03:53:54 PM
Also, if people feel more confident that they know SE well enough to write her off as a terrible person/shithead, it seems ... odd that they wouldn't know any details about her life which have been pretty open and obvious for a while now.

And two people used 'their.'

But hey, I'm horribly oppressive responding with a scathing 'their?'
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bren on January 05, 2015, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: Will;807993
No, I asked for clarification.
Many people use "their" as a singular pronoun when the gender of the subject is unknown. I can't believe you don't know that, which makes your request seem other than a request for clarification. Your "stinkeye" follow up only reinforces the impression that you are offended at a common, gender neutral usage.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Bren on January 05, 2015, 03:57:46 PM
Quote from: Will;807995
Also, if people feel more confident that they know SE well enough to write her off as a terrible person/shithead, it seems ... odd that they wouldn't know any details about her life which have been pretty open and obvious for a while now.
Why? I don't know the details of Ettin's or Topher's lives either. But I still know they are shitheads.

The only reason I remember that you are a guy is because you have a picture of yourself as your avatar and you reference yourself in your posts. If you didn't have the picture, I'd probably forget the references. I don't spend much time archiving poster personal details. I'm more interested in what people say not who they say they are.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 04:03:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;807996
Many people use "their" as a singular pronoun when the gender of the subject is unknown. I can't believe you don't know that, which makes your request seem other than a request for clarification. Your "stinkeye" follow up only reinforces the impression that you are offended at a common, gender neutral usage.


I do know that, but after two people felt confident enough that they knew her well enough to condemn her, it prompted me to ask.

I only made the stinkeye comment after people decided to make up motives rather than, you know, ask.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 04:07:59 PM
You know, the world would be a much better place if people refrained from writing up grand works of fiction about what they believe other folks' motives are and just... asked.

If something I'm doing or saying seems confusing or unreliable, ask what I mean.

Open invitation.

And I'll try to extend the same courtesy.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on January 05, 2015, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: Will;807998


I only made the stinkeye comment after people decided to make up motives rather than, you know, ask.



Bullshit.  I was the only "people" who responded, and my response had nothing to do with SE but on grammar.  You were the one to make that stinkeye comment all on your own, and unrelated to my initial post.

No one buys your bullshit or hypocrisy here Will.  Go back to TBP and they might.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: AmazingOnionMan on January 05, 2015, 04:18:44 PM
Am I the only one who read the infamous pronoun as referring to the masturbatory justice club, and not transsexuals?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 05, 2015, 04:35:53 PM
Quote from: baragei;808003
Am I the only one who read the infamous pronoun as referring to the masturbatory justice club, and not transsexuals?


Nope. I did as well. I'm hesitant to dogpile on Will just because it's getting embarrasing, but goddamn.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 05, 2015, 04:44:31 PM
Well, now that he's successfully made the thread about him, maybe we can get back on topic.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Novastar on January 05, 2015, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: MrHurst;807980
It isn't GG trolls who did this, it's people who just don't see the surgery as the deal that it can be to others.
Point of Order, for the original story:
The scammer sold their surgery as necessary after a car accident, hinting that debris needed to be removed (a la Tony Stark) before it killed them. Pinsof discovered it was for SRS, and "unfortunately" outed the person when writing about the fraud.

"Unfortunately" is in quotations, since the person in question could not have been outed, except for the very details of the fraud they willfully committed.

The recent kerfuffle with trans-folk deems to be over srhbutts:
(Note, both links are to sites I consider highly dubious (Transformers reference) in their content. YHBW)
http://theralphretort.com/sick-sarah-nyberg-aka-sarah-butts/ (http://theralphretort.com/sick-sarah-nyberg-aka-sarah-butts/)
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Srhbutts (https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Srhbutts)

EDIT: ah, yes, Bootleg Girl (wonderful name) directly links to Chloe Sagal's Patreon (the newest way to cyber-panhandle!).
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 06:04:32 PM
Quote from: Will;807983
'their'?


Shakespeare (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 06:08:54 PM
Quote from: Will;807987
No, I'm one of those people who gives people the stinkeye when they can't bring themselves to refer to trans folks as the gender they identify as.

Ive got no beef with transfolk, or however they want to identify.

SomethingElse OTOH, I think of as an "it", but this is the first time Ive encountered them using the screenname "Bootleggirl", so no idea if it's trans or, well, something else.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 06:21:43 PM
Thanks for clarifying.

The rest of that crap wasn't about you.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 06:27:29 PM
Quote from: Novastar;808012


The recent kerfuffle with trans-folk deems to be over srhbutts:
(Note, both links are to sites I consider highly dubious (Transformers reference) in their content. YHBW)
http://theralphretort.com/sick-sarah-nyberg-aka-sarah-butts/ (http://theralphretort.com/sick-sarah-nyberg-aka-sarah-butts/)
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Srhbutts (https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Srhbutts)


I could barely read either of those

But if I'm getting this right....Sarah Nyberg is a trans woman who sent naked pics of themselves to 7 year olds?

And this is the person "Bootleg girl" is claiming was threatening to commit suicide online? (the second transperson to do so in so many months after being publically exposed for commiting a crime?)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 06:32:22 PM
Wait.

Why did you use they again if you know the person is a trans woman?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 06:45:48 PM
Quote from: Will;808025
Wait.

Why did you use they again if you know the person is a trans woman?

Didnt notice I had until you pointed it out; I think its just my cadence. I've gotten used to using singular they from writing game rules the past year for Phaserip (yeah, despite hating all the PC BS online I actually made an effort to make my game rules gender nuetral).


But if it makes you more comfortable:

"Sarah Nyberg is a pre-op transexual woman who sends naked pictures of herself to 7 year olds? And somebody stopped her from commiting suicide?"
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 05, 2015, 06:53:52 PM
We basicly proven this is no connection with gamergate so why are we talking about it?  Let me add this as well.  Who in the hell sends naked pics of themselves to 7 year old kids?  That is just nasty.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 06:54:42 PM
Ah, that makes sense. I've started using 'neutral they' a bunch, once I found out it had canon to it (things like 'sie' and other stuff make me twitch, though I'm considering using them for some scifi stories for explicitly intersex folks).
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 05, 2015, 06:56:28 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;808034
We basicly proven this is no connection with gamergate so why are we talking about it?  Let me add this as well.  Who in the hell sends naked pics of themselves to 7 year old kids?  That is just nasty.

The only thing that keeps me from full bore condemnation of her is that she's very likely insane.

Which joins shootings and other stuff for my stance of 'the US needs better healthcare, particularly mental healthcare.'

(It's still disgusting and I condemn it, if my sentence was confusing)
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 07:01:17 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;808034
We basicly proven this is no connection with gamergate so why are we talking about it?  Let me add this as well.  Who in the hell sends naked pics of themselves to 7 year old kids?  That is just nasty.


Pedophiles, that's who.

The only connection with Gamergate being that this pedophile is a very active anti-GG poster, who seems to have written several articles for "The Mary Sue" (not previously familiar with the site), under the screen name "Sarah Butts" (someone actually chose that as a screen name?) about Gamergate:

http://www.themarysue.com/guest-author/sarah-butts/
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 05, 2015, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;808037
Pedophiles, that's who.

The only connection with Gamergate being that this pedophile is a very active anti-GG poster, who seems to have written several articles for "The Mary Sue" (not previously familiar with the site), under the screen name "Sarah Butts" (someone actually chose that as a screen name?) about Gamergate:

http://www.themarysue.com/guest-author/sarah-butts/


Indeed, a silly decision, especially as Edward Cockhands is still available.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Sacrosanct on January 05, 2015, 07:30:51 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;808037
Pedophiles, that's who.

The only connection with Gamergate being that this pedophile is a very active anti-GG poster, who seems to have written several articles for "The Mary Sue" (not previously familiar with the site), under the screen name "Sarah Butts" (someone actually chose that as a screen name?) about Gamergate:

http://www.themarysue.com/guest-author/sarah-butts/


Well, whoever this Sarah Butts is, she doesn't have a clue looking at that article.

CEO says there's a small group of people making everyone else's lives miserable, so naturally she says, "Ha!  Told you he is calling out you GG people!"

Well, Sarah, that comment does not apply to GG in general, because he said "a small group."  Secondly, it applies equally to the pro-GG assholes who have done shitty things, and anti-GG assholes who have done equally shitty things.  The CEO is just against assholes doing shitty things in general.  

This Sarah has some serious cognitive dissonance going on.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 09:57:03 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;808044
Well, whoever this Sarah Butts is, she doesn't have a clue looking at that article.

CEO says there's a small group of people making everyone else's lives miserable, so naturally she says, "Ha!  Told you he is calling out you GG people!"

Well, Sarah, that comment does not apply to GG in general, because he said "a small group."  Secondly, it applies equally to the pro-GG assholes who have done shitty things, and anti-GG assholes who have done equally shitty things.  The CEO is just against assholes doing shitty things in general.  

This Sarah has some serious cognitive dissonance going on.


The minute pedophilia enters the picture, I don't give a shit. Person should be locked away from society forever, or put down like a rabid animal.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 05, 2015, 10:02:52 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;808041
Indeed, a silly decision, especially as Edward Cockhands is still available.


In a perverse way, I'm tempted to draw that.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 06, 2015, 12:12:23 AM
It's absurdly easy to make a cockhands character in Champions Online, if one were so inclined. (And cockface too)

Just do a search for 'Champions Online Tentacle Hands'
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on January 06, 2015, 12:30:34 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;808019
Ive got no beef with transfolk, or however they want to identify.


Quote
SomethingElse OTOH, I think of as an "it",


Well obviously you do have some kind of beef, since that particular person doesn't even rate as "folk" to you.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 06, 2015, 12:34:13 AM
Quote from: Will;808088
It's absurdly easy to make a cockhands character in Champions Online, if one were so inclined. (And cockface too)

Just do a search for 'Champions Online Tentacle Hands'

You must really be jaded on hentai if you were bothering to go past 30th page.

Quote from: Motorskills;808091
Well obviously you do have some kind of beef, since that particular person doesn't even rate as "folk" to you.

He's a cunt, and him having a cunt in place of a former dick has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;808074
In a perverse way, I'm tempted to draw that.

I'll remember you are tempted to draw ;). I might have something better soon if you'll still be interested in doodling.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 12:42:55 AM
Quote from: Motorskills;808091
Well obviously you do have some kind of beef, since that particular person doesn't even rate as "folk" to you.


Yes, I have a beef with that individual. Has nothing to do with transfolk in general, even if that is what SE is claiming to be these days.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 12:59:33 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;808093
I'll remember you are tempted to draw ;). I might have something better soon if you'll still be interested in doodling.

Sure, as long as "better" isn't code for "even more penis"
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on January 06, 2015, 02:31:34 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;808093
He's


You really are making a special effort this week, eh (http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/01/us/transgender-questions-leelah/index.html)?

For all of your posturing about "a more ethical world", ethics have never really been the thing that's important to you lot.

You've brought shame to our hobby.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: Motorskills;808111

For all of your posturing about "a more ethical world", ethics have never really been the thing that's important to you lot.


What "lot" is that?
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 06, 2015, 02:43:55 AM
Quote from: Motorskills;808111
You really are making a special effort this week, eh (http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/01/us/transgender-questions-leelah/index.html)?

For all of your posturing about "a more ethical world", ethics have never really been the thing that's important to you lot.

You've brought shame to our hobby.

Calm down, my mistake - She's a cunt, and her having a cunt in place of a former dick has nothing to do with it. From your own article, Dredd

Quote
If you don't always get it right, don't freak out. Don't make big deal of it, Kailey writes on Tranifesto.

And yes, I am definitely not in this thread for ethics, but for shits and giggles. I come to RPGsite for gaming discussions - GamerGate seems like the sort of shit that's not about gaming, it's a case where at this point, there'll be no determination who'll be right, only who'll be left. I just wish I could open my fridge without a thread about it popping out, but I guess that's what I get for buying an Android fridge.

I kid, I couldn't afford one.

And really, the moment I truly brought shame to this hobby was when I was running a Post - Apocalypse game high as Snoop Dogg clutching Bellerophon, when I pulled such great ideas as Communion Through Semen (I was 17 to my additional defence). At least 2 people were afraid to game with me for 2 - 3 years to come after that.

Quote from: TristramEvans;808112
What "lot" is that?

The Lot's lot and the lot of his three daughters.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on January 06, 2015, 02:54:18 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;808112
What "lot" is that?


Well, Chris Kluwe is a harder-core gamer than I will ever be, and he sums it up like this (https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/551581826515349505).

You want to clean up gaming journalism, that's awesome.

But you need to clean up your own house first.

No, I'm not saying you individually are responsible for this stuff, but you absolutely can't succeed with that objective until you decontaminate the hashtag.

As one of the commenters put it:

Quote
Note how the GGers in your mention are more devoted to declaiming responsibility than decrying that it happened at all.


That bit? That's what a significant chunk of this whole thread is.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 06, 2015, 03:04:33 AM
Re: Hentai:
I wasn't suggesting people posted dick hand characters, but if you look at those tentacle hands, the shape should be evocative.

And hey, I'm exhausted but have insomnia and drinking isn't helping, so I think I'll go whip up some dickhands.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 03:07:57 AM
Quote from: Motorskills;808114
You want to clean up gaming journalism, that's awesome.

But you need to clean up your own house first. No, I'm not saying you
individually are responsible for this stuff, but you absolutely can't succeed with that objective until you decontaminate the hashtag.

Hm, you seem to think you're talking to Gamergaters here in this thread.  You're not. I for one could give a crap about "cleaning up gaming journalism". If I buy a game mag its for the pretty pictures or to steal maps/level layouts for a REAL RPG.

I have never used ANY hashtag, avoiding Twitter like the intellectual abyss that it is, so could care less about cleaning up the Gamergate hashtag.

But I am in a perfectly fine position to criticize the the vocally anti-gamergater's for their hipocrisy, lies, and generally unpleasantness. So one could just as easily say "Have a problem with Gamergate? Clean up your own house first".

And Chris Kluwe is the guy who "was pushing for locker-room-culture change while at some point he cut a hole in his pants to mock children being raped" ?


Quote
That bit? That's what a significant chunk of this whole thread is.

Yeah, what you'll find here is posters who don't automatically swallow the party line and drink the kool-aid just because its being passed around. I'm interested in the truth, not the biased accusations of one group of idiots online or another. I realize on other forums online, Gamergate is a gone conclusion: "they are an evil organization devoted to destroying women in gaming!" However, the actual evidence paints a much different , and like everything in the real world, much more complicated picture.

If you've got an argument to make, that's great. Join in, provide your proof, and watch how reasonable people will actually change their mind if a competent debate is engaged. But if you're expecting anyone to roll over and go "OK, you say so, so that must be the way it is", you've go the wrong forum.

Convictions cause convicts.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 03:10:47 AM
Quote from: Will;808115
Re: Hentai:
I wasn't suggesting people posted dick hand characters, but if you look at those tentacle hands, the shape should be evocative.

And hey, I'm exhausted but have insomnia and drinking isn't helping, so I think I'll go whip up some dickhands.


Its sad that pictures of dickhands would actually improve the overall tone of the thread.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 06, 2015, 03:13:34 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;808116

Yeah, what you'll find here is posters who don't automatically swallow the party line and drink the kool-aid just because its being passed around.

That, and I am sure to a degree, this thread actually keeps a certain degree of local BNGs and trolls committed to one, easily walled off from my eyes section.

Quote from: Will;808115
Re: Hentai:
I wasn't suggesting people posted dick hand characters, but if you look at those tentacle hands, the shape should be evocative.

And hey, I'm exhausted but have insomnia and drinking isn't helping, so I think I'll go whip up some dickhands.

Jazzhands, but with dicks. And it's okay Will, it's a brave new world out there. A wank for every man, and every man for his wanker.

Quote from: Motorskills;808114
Well, Chris Kluwe is a harder-core gamer than I will ever be

Something tells me that's not hard to do.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 06, 2015, 03:21:25 AM
There:
http://tinyurl.com/p5ho6be
and

http://tinyurl.com/pkyvp4s


On a related note, working on 3d art, it's clear how much of it is aimed at amateur virtual pornographers.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: TristramEvans on January 06, 2015, 03:29:12 AM
Quote from: Will;808119
There:
http://tinyurl.com/p5ho6be
and

http://tinyurl.com/pkyvp4s


On a related note, working on 3d art, it's clear how much of it is aimed at amateur virtual pornographers.


With the added creepyness of the Uncanny Valley!
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Motorskills on January 06, 2015, 03:36:06 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;808118
Something tells me that's not hard to do.


Because Kluwe doesn't hide behind 8 Chan anonymity, etc.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 06, 2015, 03:38:39 AM
Quote from: Motorskills;808121
Because Kluwe doesn't hide behind 8 Chan anonymity, etc.

No, I just didn't ever see you post about games here. But it's okay - enjoy the Little Tangency.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: Will on January 06, 2015, 03:47:11 AM
Er, I should note that while my links are suggestive (particularly if I say 'dickhands!'), they aren't actually pornographic or anything.
Title: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
Post by: One Horse Town on January 06, 2015, 06:12:19 AM
I'm just going to go ahead and close this before more people say stuff they'll regret (too late in some cases, i note). Singling out a person who has fuck all to do with anything is extremely lame.