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Author Topic: #GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world  (Read 10647 times)

ArrozConLeche

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« on: December 13, 2014, 11:51:48 AM »
I done Foxtrot Uniform badly on the first
thread here and put it on the wrong forum. Ended up with the dunce cap up my ass. But no matter, this asshat will try again.


I used to be anti-whatever. #GamerGate was just a bunch of "mysogynerds"... until I decided to look into it.

SJW, Feminism, etc. Can be annoying when hypocritical, but it's bullshit to focus on that, IMO. To me the real meat is in this kind of stuff:

Gonzales - Pinsof

Hernandez - Anthropy

GameJournoPros List

That's just some of the situations that have surfaced and gained attention. There is plenty of other shady crap, if you feel like researching, IMO. Who knows what has and is still going on that no one knows about.

What is also really shameful, however,  is how most of the gaming and mainstream media either gloss over this, or completely black it out. They choose to have a single focus on the assholes within the movement with nary a mention. If there's a good thing that has come out of #GamerGate, in my opinion, is that it has shone light on the shady things that go on, and also highlighted the more obvious bullshit (see coverage).

The whole thing would lose momentum if those in charge called the gater's card by actually addressing the problems, but for some reason this has fallen on deaf ears. As you wonder why, consider that maybe it just hits too close to home.

-----

So, what I wrote regarding these two fallacies still applies. Here are the "rules", once more:

Generalization

Genetic Fallacy or Fallacy of Origin

These two fallacies are so rampant in the #GamerGate debate, that I just want to highlight them before they occur. You can make whatever fallacious argument you want, of course, but at least it will be known ahead of time which arguments are faulty.

Have at it.

Snowman0147

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 12:24:59 PM »
I can easily point out that they are owned by Gwaker media and thus do every thing that Gwaker tells them to do and why companies had pulled investments from that media site.  However, it goes much deeper than that.  You need to research were the social justice warriors are coming from.  Gamergate is only the top part of this iceberg.

TristramEvans

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 12:58:27 PM »
The easiest way for Gamergate to "win" is to en masse stop buying any products from or visting the websites of those companies/people. They'd be dead in a year because, despite what they want to believe, there is no mass audience outside of gamers for that crap. However, I suspect that gamergaters are still regularly doing both those things, looking for outrage.
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Snowman0147

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 01:03:35 PM »
That had always been the problem even long before gamergate was even thought of.  It is tempting to buy games from companies you don't like, but a few of us proven to do it.  That isn't a gamergate problem, but a gamer problem which also plagues gamergate.

TristramEvans

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 01:06:37 PM »
Then they get what they deserve, IMO.
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Motorskills

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 01:50:43 PM »
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804328
I done Foxtrot Uniform badly on the first
thread here and put it on the wrong forum. Ended up with the dunce cap up my ass. But no matter, this asshat will try again.


I used to be anti-whatever. #GamerGate was just a bunch of "mysogynerds"... until I decided to look into it.

SJW, Feminism, etc. Can be annoying when hypocritical, but it's bullshit to focus on that, IMO. To me the real meat is in this kind of stuff:

Gonzales - Pinsof

Hernandez - Anthropy

GameJournoPros List

That's just some of the situations that have surfaced and gained attention. There is plenty of other shady crap, if you feel like researching, IMO. Who knows what has and is still going on that no one knows about.

What is also really shameful, however,  is how most of the gaming and mainstream media either gloss over this, or completely black it out. They choose to have a single focus on the assholes within the movement with nary a mention. If there's a good thing that has come out of #GamerGate, in my opinion, is that it has shone light on the shady things that go on, and also highlighted the more obvious bullshit (see coverage).

The whole thing would lose momentum if those in charge called the gater's card by actually addressing the problems, but for some reason this has fallen on deaf ears. As you wonder why, consider that maybe it just hits too close to home.

-----

So, what I wrote regarding these two fallacies still applies. Here are the "rules", once more:

Generalization

Genetic Fallacy or Fallacy of Origin

These two fallacies are so rampant in the #GamerGate debate, that I just want to highlight them before they occur. You can make whatever fallacious argument you want, of course, but at least it will be known ahead of time which arguments are faulty.

Have at it.


Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.
“Gosh it’s so interesting (profoundly unsurprising) how men with all these opinions about women’s differentiation between sexual misconduct, assault and rape reveal themselves to be utterly tone deaf and as a result, systemically part of the problem.” - Minnie Driver, December 2017

" Using the phrase "virtue signalling" is 'I'm a sociopath' signalling ". J Wright, July 2018

Ratman_tf

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 02:56:45 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.


That's why I think it's foolish to downplay the SJW aspect. There is a certain type of tactic they use.

There's a reason the narrative on their end revolves around women. It's the damsel in distress trope, weaponized to attack critics and deflect criticism. No one can say "Hey, I think Anita's videos are full of shit!" without being  called a gamergate misogynerd.

So when a so-called progressive is caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they can cry misogyny and paint their critics as misogynerds. A culture of fear is cultivated (see, Felicia Day's blog post about GG) and the original offense is obscured by all this bullshit.
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AmazingOnionMan

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 02:59:31 PM »
Might as well come clean here, I support GamerGate wholeheartedly. Not because I am terribly interested in ethics in game journalism - as far as I'm concerned, ethics in journalism is a ship has long since sailed, hit an iceberg, sunk, and no one bothered to make a movie about it.
But they do yell very loudly, and thus wake up some of the sleepers. Which is good. If journalists - game and otherwise - are actually forced to stop slouching and report researched news instead of narrative and clickbait because of this spectacle, that is a good thing.

I find myself supporting gamergate because of the opposition. While "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" might not be the healthiest philosophy to live by, the way gamergate consistently dishes out black eyes to the outrage brigade is downright heartwarming. The constant hounding and vilification of it from the media makes the movement look, if anything, more sympathetic to me.

Anonymous trolls, MRA's and (this will perhaps make me some enemies) rightwingers have done their best to usurp gamergate, but so far haven't succeeded. Everyone else has done their best to paint the movement as misogynistic harassers and a hate group.
As the saying goes "If you can't spot the sucker at the table, you're him." Maybe I'm a sucker, but I still think #gamergate is in the right.

Now, I suggest we chip in and get OHT a nice bottle of flavored spirits. He has probably ground down more than one set of teeth over this clusterfuck.

ArrozConLeche

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 03:08:40 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.


Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

I don't know how exactly you mean that someone suffered regarding the discovery of hernandez's conflict of interest, so if you don't mind educating me, please expand on what you mean. Unless you mean they suffered as a result of getting caught?

Regarding Pinsof, you should mention that the outed person was holding an indiegogo fundraiser under, at best, misleading information, and at worst, outright deception about the nature of what the money was for. I feel for her, but she put herself in a situation where exposing her deception would lead to her outing. Or do you not believe that the backers had a right to the truth? Was it ok for her to ask for money under false pretenses?

In the end, I don't see how any of that, in itself, is relevant to the point of #GamerGate, nor does it hurt my argument because attacking the source of evidence instead of the evidence itself is exactly what I mentioned in the OP would be a logical fallacy. That LGBT people may have suffered or that Milo is a giant douchebag really stinks, but that means nothing to the premise.

Quote
I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.

That is quite hypocritical, and should be pointed out like you did. Obviously, there is an axe to grind against the "gamers are dead" crowd and the SJWs. Personally, i think this hurtsnthem morebthan helps them. That is not to say that there haven't been such discussions about AAA corps  anywhere.

Personally, I hope they will "level up" as WikiLeaks exhorted. The mainstream media needs to be brought to account too on that front.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 03:17:13 PM by ArrozConLeche »

Novastar

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 04:10:07 PM »
For those that want to see Journalism offenses, and some steps taken by websites to address those concerns:
A Review of Games Journalism

For many of us, Anita Sarkeesian has serious credibility issues:
http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/27/An-open-letter-to-Bloomberg-s-Sheelah-Kolhatkar-on-the-delicate-matter-of-Anita-Sarkeesian

Both Adam Sessler and Jim Sterling (prominent gaming journalists) believe they have a god-given Right to illegally doxx you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lje1viM_djY
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

Novastar

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 04:44:50 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;804347
Holy hell, this is supposed to be helping your case? That it's all about cleaning up videogame journalism and not targeting minorities, especially women?

1. GLBT person suffers.
2. GLBT person suffers
3. Milo fucking Yiannopoulos.

1) Since the case was over a woman, claiming to need a life-saving medical procedure, that was actually scamming people to pay for gender reassignment surgery, yes, a GLBT person suffered because they were committing fraud. No discrimination because they were GLBT, but because they were a shitty human being. Moving on...
2) The couple in question were indeed both Lesbian. They're relationship would have been a conflict of interest whether they were homo- or hetero-sexual. Moving on...
3) Do you have an actual objection, or are you just going to slur a conservative gay man? Cause so far, YOUR comment has been the most homophobic.

Quote
Look, as far as I've seen, I don't know a single anti-GGer that doesn't agree that there are issues with collusion and whatever in the gaming industry. That's not news, it's been going on since videogames were a thing.

Find me three sources that admit that, while decrying GamerGate (i.e. taking the anti-GG stance). I'll wait.

Quote
I'm quite happy to accept that maybe it's worse now, considering the vast sums of money involved in AAA games, but it's laughable that the targets of GG mostly seem to be the smaller indie outfits.

1) It's harder to go after AAA developers because they have PR and lawyers on-staff to handle these kind of things. That makes discovery A LOT harder.
2) AAA developers are, smartly, basically staying out of the whole kerfuffle. Having a strong pro or anti stance can make a developer un-hireable, since AAA companies want to AVOID true controversy, at all costs.
3) AAA developers are some of the worst actors in the whole mess, offering tablets and high-end laptops as "party gifts" and similar payola. But ultimately, it's the reporters accepting such payoffs that create the conflicts-of-interest. The society of pre-ordering and DLC has created an even more incestuous relationship between developers and journalists, and it's a hell of a lot easier to remind journalists of their responsibility and ethics, than to get For Profit companies to change policies that work.
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

Motorskills

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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 01:55:12 PM »
Quote from: Novastar;804375
Find me three sources that admit that, while decrying GamerGate (i.e. taking the anti-GG stance). I'll wait.


And we'll enjoy watching you starve to death.

Quote
3) Do you have an actual objection, or are you just going to slur a conservative gay man? Cause so far, YOUR comment has been the most homophobic.


You are hilarious. You're the guy that makes the anti-GG argument for them.



Quote
1) Since the case was over a woman, claiming to need a life-saving medical procedure, that was actually scamming people to pay for gender reassignment surgery, yes, a GLBT person suffered because they were committing fraud. No discrimination because they were GLBT, but because they were a shitty human being. Moving on...
2) The couple in question were indeed both Lesbian. They're relationship would have been a conflict of interest whether they were homo- or hetero-sexual. Moving on...



Look, since you are struggling to get the (my) point. [You] are pointing at these guys' misdeeds, jumping up and down at their wrongdoing. And hey, for now, let's accept everything you say about that.

But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.


Take the list of names on the Secret Game Journos Email List. It's overwhelmingly male. And yet the high-profile people getting hurt by this mess, the people on your shitlist of bad behavior, are mostly not.



I've been a gamer for probably longer than you've been alive, and you (GG) don't speak for me. I've always been a huge advocate for gamers and gaming (of all kinds), and this saga has sickened me. And I'm far from alone.

The reason I referenced Felicia Day in the now-closed* thread is that her experience is a perfect example of the damage that has been done. Calling her prejudiced and whatnot is just so blinkered-defensive**. Her enjoyment of our hobby has been fundamentally damaged by the GamerGate saga. And to what end?


One doesn't need to be a pitchfork-waving SJW to know exactly where to point the finger of blame.


*way to go, guys

**(Day's doxxing actually came after her post, for what it's worth. She was upset before that.).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 02:21:26 PM by Motorskills »
“Gosh it’s so interesting (profoundly unsurprising) how men with all these opinions about women’s differentiation between sexual misconduct, assault and rape reveal themselves to be utterly tone deaf and as a result, systemically part of the problem.” - Minnie Driver, December 2017

" Using the phrase "virtue signalling" is 'I'm a sociopath' signalling ". J Wright, July 2018

Ladybird

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 03:29:20 PM »
Quote from: Novastar;804375
3) AAA developers are some of the worst actors in the whole mess, offering tablets and high-end laptops as "party gifts" and similar payola. But ultimately, it's the reporters accepting such payoffs that create the conflicts-of-interest. The society of pre-ordering and DLC has created an even more incestuous relationship between developers and journalists, and it's a hell of a lot easier to remind journalists of their responsibility and ethics, than to get For Profit companies to change policies that work.


That's not the developers. That's the publishers - they're the ones who pay for the marketing, they're the ones that buy the metacritic scores, and they're the ones that assign bonuses based on metacritic scores.

And it is that corruption that should be targeted, because that is what is actually making gaming worse. It costs real money to buy the AAA games, £30+; and if you've bought a new release on the basis of a corrupt review and it turns out to be a turd, that's a significant amount of money to be out! You've got a legitimate reason to be upset! I'm sure all those of us who buy video games have done this in our time.

But if, say, you read an article about Depression Quest, play it (Or any other free-as-in-beer indie game), and don't like it... you've only lost a few minutes. Even if you have to pay for it, like you read a Patricia Hernandez on one of Anna Anthropy's games... you go to the site and check it out, you can get a good idea of what you're getting and if it's for you, and if you do then pay for something and don't like it, you're only out a couple of pounds. Well, big deal. You really were warned.

So that's it. The videogame side of gamergate isn't going for valuable targets, it's not doing anything to make videogames more interesting and varied.
one two FUCK YOU

Novastar

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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 03:51:45 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;804532
And we'll enjoy watching you starve to death.
Obviously the sentiment of a progressive, socially conscious voice.
My starving children thank you, for your beneficence.

Quote
You are hilarious. You're the guy that makes the anti-GG argument for them.

That they support criminals and engage in unethical behavior, including e-celebs like Adam Sessler and Jim Sterling enthusiastically supporting illegal doxxing?
Video from SGC2013

Quote
Look, since you are struggling to get the (my) point. [You] are pointing at these guys' misdeeds, jumping up and down at their wrongdoing. And hey, for now, let's accept everything you say about that.


Apparently you also are missing my point: I don't give a shit about these people, save for their misdeeds. The first committed criminal fraud. The second is a journalist giving favorable biased coverage to someone they're in a relationship with. They were living together.

Whether they're Black, Blue, LBGT, or glowing from radioactivity makes no difference to me. I'm just interested in their legal and ethical failures, and seeing that corrected.

Quote
But you (GG) already lost any or all credibility. No-one's listening to anything legitimate you want them to hear, they just see the toxicity that pervades the GG camp. As much as you point fingers, you did that to yourselves.

Feel free to keep telling yourself that. After daft moves like #ShirtGate and the newly emerging #MetalGate, you'll actually find we're trending just fine, and actually jump after each media blitz to falsely paint us.

The fact you also cannot tell their are trolls on both sides, is quite telling. The difference between Pro-GG and Anti-GG, is our trolls don't write for major publications. :p

Quote
Take the list of names on the Secret Game Journos Email List. It's overwhelmingly male. And yet the high-profile people getting hurt by this mess, the people on your shitlist of bad behavior, are mostly not.

You mean the people Pro-GG has renamed "Literally Who?", in an attempt to bring the focus off of them. You'll forgive me, but the women you're mentioning are literally anti-GG's #NotYourShield, albeit built on just 4 women instead of hundreds of women and minorities.

Quote
I've been a gamer for probably longer than you've been alive, and you (GG) don't speak for me. I've always been a huge advocate for gamers and gaming (of all kinds), and this saga has sickened me. And I'm far from alone.
Unlikely; don't mean to speak for you, just me; I agree the nepotism and unethical behavior sickens me too; no, there is a fair following of people following both pro and anti-GG.
(KotakuInAction (pro-GG) has 22,513 subscribers, GamerGhazi (anti-GG) has 4077 subscribers)

Quote
The reason I referenced Felicia Day in the now-closed* thread is that her experience is a perfect example of the damage that has been done. Calling her prejudiced and whatnot is just so blinkered-defensive**. Her enjoyment of our hobby has been fundamentally damaged by the GamerGate saga. And to what end?

Yes, indeed; who makes money off this controversy?
Developers? No, most try to avoid controversy.
Gamers? Being called misogynistic basement-dwelling shitlords? Seems unlikely...
Journalists and "Cultural Commentary"? Oh, how they can create clickbait from this! Their victim status is self-supporting! How many have a Patreon...?

Quote
One doesn't need to be a pitchfork-waving SJW to know exactly where to point the finger of blame.

How about the ones actually engaged in unethical or criminal wrong-doing? And we don't paint everyone as an extremist within a movement (unless you truly believe all Muslims are terrorists)? I'm not saying every gaming journalist is an unethical hack; but the ones I know of wrong-doing, I am going to take to task.

Quote
**(Day's doxxing actually came after her post, for what it's worth. She was upset before that.).

Yes, I'm sure the fact she uses the same PR firm that represents several of the worst offenders of GamerGate, being personal friends with a number of anti-GG's, had nothing to do with her position as well. :eek:
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

Novastar

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#GamerGate: Fighting for a more ethical world
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 04:08:00 PM »
Quote from: Ladybird;804539
That's not the developers. That's the publishers - they're the ones who pay for the marketing, they're the ones that buy the metacritic scores, and they're the ones that assign bonuses based on metacritic scores.

And it is that corruption that should be targeted, because that is what is actually making gaming worse. It costs real money to buy the AAA games, £30+; and if you've bought a new release on the basis of a corrupt review and it turns out to be a turd, that's a significant amount of money to be out! You've got a legitimate reason to be upset! I'm sure all those of us who buy video games have done this in our time.

But if, say, you read an article about Depression Quest, play it (Or any other free-as-in-beer indie game), and don't like it... you've only lost a few minutes. Even if you have to pay for it, like you read a Patricia Hernandez on one of Anna Anthropy's games... you go to the site and check it out, you can get a good idea of what you're getting and if it's for you, and if you do then pay for something and don't like it, you're only out a couple of pounds. Well, big deal. You really were warned.

So that's it. The videogame side of gamergate isn't going for valuable targets, it's not doing anything to make videogames more interesting and varied.

Point given; I should have said publishers, not developers.
The problem still remains, being able to take the big guys to task.

I recently read about a recent press junket in Europe, one of the big guys included a free Nexus 7 Tablet as swag to people reviewing their game. Several journalists mentioned it; some returning it on the spot, some deciding to use it as a sweepstakes or raffle prize, but an unknown number just took it home. To make matters worse, not all journalists with every publication got one, some just got promotional t-shirts.

Beyond a boycott of the game, there's not much the consumer can do to take the publisher to task. It's A LOT easier to hold the journalists to task, since the SJP of Ethics says they should refuse the gift, since it creates a conflict-of-interest.

It's the problem of trying to change a system that has become increasingly incestuous over the last 3 decades. As a consumer, I really only feel I have two methods of communication: written correspondence (letters, e-mail, twitter, etc), and straight up boycotts (talking with my money).

I don't have a publisher asking me to give out Nexus 7 Tablets to "buy" good reviews; I have no ethical decisions to make. I'm not a journalist at a Press Junket, being offered a Nexus 7 Tablet for a "favorable" review (wink, wink); I have no ethical decisions to make. But as a consumer, I think both are unethical as hell, and I think it's fair for me to voice my displeasure.
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.