Quote from: beeber;562266jason, what's your take on the tabletop AP?  fairly standard experience, there?

Pretty typical, although they got some rules wrong here and there. I guess that might be pretty typical too! But the situation and characters they set up are absolutely Fiasco standard, and it would be almost impossible to exit the setup without something as interesting and fraught as theirs.

Two of these guys had played before, so the Tabletop session is smoother than a first session where you have to puzzle over the rules a little. No surprises there.

I love the way they differentiate IC and OOC in the video. The whole thing is very professional.

Given their channel they chose to play it a little tame. You'll find out if they take the gloves off next Friday*.


*They totally do

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;562118Fiasco is not a game.  It is a formalized writing committee process wearing RPG drag made by and for people that want to write stories but are shit at it.

THIS.

As much as I don't want storygame bullshit in my traditional RPGs and consider them different types of games, I don't understand how anyone could watch this and not consider Fiasco a "game." Of course it's a game. If people do it for their entertainment and have fun doing it for no particular benefit beyond that pleasure playing, how is this not a "game"?

and now they've posted the "set up" for the game.  the character creation/motivations thing was pretty cool.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;562613...... although bending Fiasco into truly cooperative play isn't going to work I don't think.

Then its definitely NOT an 'RPG'.

Also the lack of a GM and GM screen bothers me.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;562870Then its definitely NOT an 'RPG'.

Also the lack of a GM and GM screen bothers me.

- Ed C.

I don't think anyone was really trying to argue that. That's why it's in the Other Games forum.

What some people WERE arguing is whether or not it's a GAME. (And having played a partial demo, I'm in the camp that it's definitely a game, with the potential to be a lot of fun, at that.)

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;562928I don't think anyone was really trying to argue that. That's why it's in the Other Games forum.

What some people WERE arguing is whether or not it's a GAME. (And having played a partial demo, I'm in the camp that it's definitely a game, with the potential to be a lot of fun, at that.)

yep, why i posted it in OG right from the get-go.

Quote from: Benoist;562685As much as I don't want storygame bullshit in my traditional RPGs and consider them different types of games, I don't understand how anyone could watch this and not consider Fiasco a "game." Of course it's a game. If people do it for their entertainment and have fun doing it for no particular benefit beyond that pleasure playing, how is this not a "game"?

Games have objectives.  What is the objective of Fiasco?  D&D's got one: get the treasure and level up.  Feng Shui has one: stop the bad guys and get/burn the Feng Shui site.  Other proper RPGs have objectives because all proper games have objectives.  I don't see one for any Storytelling product like Fiasco which makes it, at best, a mere pastime.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;563133Games have objectives.  What is the objective of Fiasco?  D&D's got one: get the treasure and level up.  Feng Shui has one: stop the bad guys and get/burn the Feng Shui site.  Other proper RPGs have objectives because all proper games have objectives.  I don't see one for any Storytelling product like Fiasco which makes it, at best, a mere pastime.

...games aren't pastimes?

But the objective is to try to wind up with as many dice as you can by the end of the game, securing as good of an ending as possible.

Characters in the game have needs/wants which are objectives those characters work towards.

Also, Brad, if you take it that direction, a lot of RPGs arent games because they lack an end state.  But Fiasco has an end-state.  Its fuzzy, academic discourse that doesnt really benefit us here in terms of deciding whether wed like it, and proving Fiasco doesnt fit one of the many definitions of the word game isnt going to stop people from enjoyi g it no matter how loudly you insist that they should be doing something else with their time.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;563133What is the objective of Fiasco?

You can play to win (that is, advocate strongly for your character and try to end the game with lots of dice that are the same color as Tommy suggests), or you can play to lose (that is, get your character in as much trouble as possible and try to end the game with a matched set of dice in each color), or you can play to see what happens to your dude, not worrying about the dice.

In any of these modes you can play to get what your character wants, which is hard-coded into the setup. You can play to craft a satisfying, cohesive story if that's your thing. You can play to mess with your friends or challenge yourself.

The game offers all these and you get to choose the ones you like best. Fiasco really sings when everybody is on a different page about their personal objectives - one guy desperately trying to keep his dude honest and kind, one guy aiming for a train wreck, a third guy ruthlessly chasing his need. When I play I usually hold back a little until I see what everybody's objective is and then make my play about something opposite or complimentary.

Constructing an enjoyable story in collaboration with the other players that remotely makes sense (from a metagame as well as a narrative standpoint) at the end of the day can't be the goal of a storygame?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;563133Games have objectives.  What is the objective of Fiasco?  D&D's got one: get the treasure and level up.  Feng Shui has one: stop the bad guys and get/burn the Feng Shui site.  Other proper RPGs have objectives because all proper games have objectives.  I don't see one for any Storytelling product like Fiasco which makes it, at best, a mere pastime.

What's the objective of GURPS? What's the objective of Heavy Gear? What's the objective of Fading Suns?

So, first, I reject this criteria for "not a game", even as it applies within the narrow confines of the RPG/STG arena.

But even if we did accept your criteria, you've completely missed the mark. Fiasco has an objective. It's mentioned explicitly in the text: "Your goal should be to get your guy to a satisfactory conclusion -- or near one -- by the time the dice run out." In addition to the storytelling elements, this goal is also tied directly to the dice-collecting mechanics of Fiasco (minimal as they may be).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;563507What's the objective of GURPS?

GURPS is a toolset, as with HERO and similar products.

QuoteWhat's the objective of Heavy Gear? What's the objective of Fading Suns?

In both cases, victory for your faction.  Same as with most '90s-era RPGs.

QuoteSo, first, I reject this criteria for "not a game", even as it applies within the narrow confines of the RPG/STG arena.

Try harder.

QuoteBut even if we did accept your criteria, you've completely missed the mark. Fiasco has an objective. It's mentioned explicitly in the text: "Your goal should be to get your guy to a satisfactory conclusion -- or near one -- by the time the dice run out." In addition to the storytelling elements, this goal is also tied directly to the dice-collecting mechanics of Fiasco (minimal as they may be).

That's some shit language there, suitable for a Storytelling writing exercise, because "satisfactory conclusion" does not come from the I Am My Guy view of a proper RPG.  It comes from the I'm Sitting At The Committee Table view of a Storytelling product, and proper RPGs have sweet fuck-all to do with any of that Storytelling bullshit.

Given that there is a mechanic that defines what it means for your guy to do well--collect dice of the right color like you're a starving piranha--it would be fucking trivial to make it a proper game and state, without reservation: "The objective is to be the one with the most favorable dice."  Or something close to that, such as "Have the highest favorable result total.", and tie something useful to it like "The winner gets (X) in the next game." like a lot of games do.

Seriously, this is not fucking hard.

heh, now i'm wondering how much nerd-rpg-rage this would've generated had i posted this in the main rpg section of the board.  and how vitriolic it would've gotten before somebody bumped it over here.

back OT, looking forward to the act 2 episode of the game session.