Quote from: One Horse Town;675512He's already said so in this thread, mate. There's zero point in moving this one over given the baggage it contains.

My apologies.  I missed that.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;675477It would be interesting to see what Pundit makes of Apocalypse World.

Why you think that ? Its practically the same game.

Quote from: silva;675542Why you think that ? Its practically the same game.

While true in many respects, even I have to say that ApocalypseWorld moves much further along the spectrum toward storygames. Does it cross a line? Dunno, don't care really. But the intent of AW definitely includes elements of being a sandbox storygame, even if it still managed to meet the Pundit's definition of "RPG".

Consider the "sex" moves in the playbooks & their effects, which can have an even bigger cause/effect split than similar things that pop up in DW. Or the way that players & the MC mark the 2 stats of another player they want to see highlighted, and thus are the only ones that produce XP for them. Those things feel more like storygame material to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;674347But that does make a huge difference. In D&D, for example, a PC archer can (maybe) choose to fire more than one shot but at a penalty, or get a bonus if they put themselves in a more visible position or advance, but they have to choose that BEFORE rolling. And that means that they have to decide to take a risk that sometimes would be an unnecessary risk; maybe staying behind cover firing just one arrow would have worked, but they don't get to play "takeback" and do it over that way.  Likewise, if they play it safe and miss, they don't get to play "takeback" and choose the riskier move.

RPGPundit

I used the term "frozen moment" a couple of times earlier in the thread; Sage used it as well. It isn't a takeback, but rather a response to a complication once you've decided on a course of action. Abort, try to force it, or something else? It actually come out more easily in narration than on paper:

player: I'm going to swing across the ravine. rolls partial success.

gm: you realize once you start to swing that the rope is a little too short to make a clean landing; do you
a: jump for it, landing on the cliff face scrabbling for a grip,
b: take a second swing to build up more momentum to make the jump, but giving the bad guys a swing at you,
c: something else I haven't thought of?

player: I don't like the idea of falling or being shot at while trying to scramble up the cliff, and giving them a free shot is just as bad, so I'll tighten my grip on the rope, swing a high as I can, and turn around. I'll try and kick the bad guys on the return swing, then see what happens before I decide what to do next.

gm: okay, roll initiative.

What DW seems to do is loosely codify this type of GM and player creativity by providing some guidelines so that people to whom it doesn't come naturally can experience it in play.
 

Quote from: sage;675018Yeah, but there are many settings. If I started talking about "what's happening in the setting" that wouldn't be much like current usage, I think. There's the setting, which is this place that the GM came up with (or learned about), but at least the way I'm used to talking about it "the setting" is a place, not the current state of an entire world.

We didn't just pull something out of the air, we thought about this, and felt like "fiction" was our best option. Dragons are often referred to as "fictional beasts." A fiction is something that doesn't actually exist, and that's what we're talking about.

I think the word you want here is "situation", not "fiction". Given the context/rules/(meta)physics of the world/genre/setting, what would be an appropriate event to occur in this situation involving these participants?

Quote from: sage;675021This is usually my approach too. And it's why there are various DW-based setting/hacks that change rules to fit a specific setting, and lots of people doing that day to day at their tables, and an entire section of the book on it. That section is aimed squarely at the GM.

The word you want here is "genre". "Apocalypse" is a genre, Twilight 2000 is a setting. "Dungeon crawl" is a genre, Greyhawk is a setting.

Quote from: mllaneza;675233Ah ! True, no RPG before DW though to lump the character's realm of what they do, in with the GM's realm of "the rest of the world". Fiction is awfully closely related to story, so I understand that it stands out as a bad thing.

I'm sincerely looking for a inoffensive term for "everything that's been established in the game, from the setting details to what the characters have done." If there's a problem with lumping the two together, I'd like to hear more about what that is. I'm honestly interested, both as a gamer with an interest in theory as well as a prospective RPG publisher.

edit: addendum. Here's this sentence from the Moves chapter (pp 16 in the PDF), ""Fictional" means that the action and effect come from the world of the characters we're describing." and this, "We talk about the fiction—the world of the characters and the things that happen around them." from pp 15. I suppose this edit is me wondering about what's so bad about the phrase "fiction" when it's defined like this. It's just the setting and what's already happened.

Situation seems the appropriate word to me.

I do think something is missing with the resolution system, since a pure miss doesn't exist by default; it's as if every miss is a critical failure/fumble. Three classes of results is simple, but I personally prefer more. I like Yes, And; Yes; Yes, But; No, But; No; No, And. *W has Yes (and sometimes Yes, And AND But) on 10+; Yes But and No, But collapsed into 7-9; and No, And for 6-. No pure critical success (Yes, And), no simple failure (No).

Quote from: apparition13;675692I do think something is missing with the resolution system, since a pure miss doesn't exist by default; it's as if every miss is a critical failure/fumble. Three classes of results is simple, but I personally prefer more. I like Yes, And; Yes; Yes, But; No, But; No; No, And. *W has Yes (and sometimes Yes, And AND But) on 10+; Yes But and No, But collapsed into 7-9; and No, And for 6-. No pure critical success (Yes, And), no simple failure (No).

The only thing I'd disagree with is where I added the emphasis. There are a lot of level-up bonuses different classes have that add rules to an existing move so that you do the thing you were trying, AND create a new really potent possible effect, on a 12+ result. Essentially, you have to level up into critical hits.

Quote from: Apparition13I do think something is missing with the resolution system, since a pure miss doesn't exist by default; it's as if every miss is a critical failure/fumble.

This is a heritage of Apocalypse World and is made on purpose/by design. Don't know Vincent whole intentions behind the mechanic, but the game tends to get more tense/dramatic as a result. I suspect that's one of the intended effects.

If anyone wants to see the system in action, I have an open PBP thread up.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=675196

Quote from: apparition13;675692I used the term "frozen moment" a couple of times earlier in the thread; Sage used it as well. It isn't a takeback, but rather a response to a complication once you've decided on a course of action. Abort, try to force it, or something else? It actually come out more easily in narration than on paper:

player: I'm going to swing across the ravine. rolls partial success.

gm: you realize once you start to swing that the rope is a little too short to make a clean landing; do you
a: jump for it, landing on the cliff face scrabbling for a grip,
b: take a second swing to build up more momentum to make the jump, but giving the bad guys a swing at you,
c: something else I haven't thought of?

player: I don't like the idea of falling or being shot at while trying to scramble up the cliff, and giving them a free shot is just as bad, so I'll tighten my grip on the rope, swing a high as I can, and turn around. I'll try and kick the bad guys on the return swing, then see what happens before I decide what to do next.

gm: okay, roll initiative.

What DW seems to do is loosely codify this type of GM and player creativity by providing some guidelines so that people to whom it doesn't come naturally can experience it in play.
 
I think the word you want here is "situation", not "fiction". Given the context/rules/(meta)physics of the world/genre/setting, what would be an appropriate event to occur in this situation involving these participants?

The word you want here is "genre". "Apocalypse" is a genre, Twilight 2000 is a setting. "Dungeon crawl" is a genre, Greyhawk is a setting.

Situation seems the appropriate word to me.

I endorse all of this.

Quote from: apparition13;675692The word you want here is "genre". "Apocalypse" is a genre, Twilight 2000 is a setting. "Dungeon crawl" is a genre, Greyhawk is a setting.

I think "setting" is a fair use by Sage. There are some true Dungeon World settings out already, such as Inverse World, and the much looser material for the city of Dis in the Planarch Codex setting covered in Dark Heart of the Dreamer.

But yeah, I can totally see your larger point of "situation first" as both meaning the right thing, and "looking right" on a casual glance. Good stuff, for folks getting stuck on it.

Quote from: apparition13;675692I do think something is missing with the resolution system, since a pure miss doesn't exist by default; it's as if every miss is a critical failure/fumble. Three classes of results is simple, but I personally prefer more. I like Yes, And; Yes; Yes, But; No, But; No; No, And. *W has Yes (and sometimes Yes, And AND But) on 10+; Yes But and No, But collapsed into 7-9; and No, And for 6-. No pure critical success (Yes, And), no simple failure (No).

Well, there's something else that's not in the resolution system that makes a simple miss undesirable. No initiative roll. In DW the GM goes when you roll a miss. That's the GM's time to do their thing. Picture a combat where everyone misses. If the GM just says miss and moves on, nothing will ever happen. The GM never gets to make a move (I'm oversimplifying a bit, the GM makes moves when there's a break in the action too, but generally soft moves). So missing is extremely safe now.

And I disagree that a miss is now a fumble.. The GM can make as hard a move as they want on a miss, so the severity of the consequence is fully under the GM's control. It could be revealing an unwelcome truth just as easily as it could be dealing damage.

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Quote from: Captain Shoggoth;712128Reefmonger

Someone who specialises is trading reefs?

Quote from: jadrax;712134Someone who specialises is trading reefs?

Sounds like a wrecker... good name if so.

Necroing massive controversial thread to shill product. Pricelessly mercantile.

Quote from: TristramEvans;712139Necroing massive controversial thread to shill product. Pricelessly mercantile.

Since shilling is the order of the day, the latest Bundle of Holding offer includes the subject of this thread.

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