Brad, do you realize that, by your arguments, Vampire and, in fact, any other WoD game should not be considered RPGs, don't you ? Vampire even has a system called "storyteller" in place.

Quote from: silva;667548Brad, do you realize that, by your arguments, Vampire and, in fact, any other WoD game should not be considered RPGs, don’t you ? Vampire even has a system called “storyteller” in place.

Vampire isn't a storyteller game in the same sense as Dungeon World because there exists a GM who isn't collaborating with the players and instead acts as a referee. Just like Ars Magica has a "troupe method" of play, yet retains a ref to adjudicate conflict.

Still, if you want to say Vampire isn't an RPG using my definition, that's fine. There's a good argument that it's not. What's your point? Axis & Allies isn't an RPG and I played the shit out of that because it was fun. Some people think Vampire is fun, some people think Dungeon World is fun. But that doesn't mean Dungeon World is an RPG. Again, does it matter?

It DOES matter when you're trying to categorize games, of course. And my analysis leads me to believe Dungeon World isn't even a real game, but an exercise in collaborative narration. Which is FINE, if you like that sort of thing. It is an activity, a pastime, an activity to share between a group of friends, but if you're creating "the fiction", you are really not playing a game in the conventional sense.

To use a more concrete example, when watching an improv group, there's a story that unfolds, typically with input from the audience. The goal is to create an interesting scenario for entertainment purposes. There might even be a moderator. It is not an RPG, though, nor is it a game. It is improv theatre. Dungeon World is exactly like an improv group because the goal is not to overcome obstacles, but to arrive at a story, shared and produced mutually.

Why is calling Dungeon World a non-RPG such a horrid thing? Because you like it? You can like improv, that doesn't mean you're an actor if you sit in the audience. Just like engaging in a Dungeon World "game" doesn't mean you're playing an RPG. Ultimately, if you're entertained, Dungeon World succeeds. But to reiterate, it's not an RPG.

Brad, having not read entirely, nor played, Dungeon World, I cant argue about it. But having played and read (in its entirety) Apocalypse World, I can guarantee you that every criteria you chose for rpgs - GM as a referee, players "playing a game", etc - are pretty much there. So, Apocalypse World is an rpg by your very criteria.

And the irony is that it produces a kind of player-driven gameplay that makes the vast majority of other rpgs out there look like (GM)story-oriented games. In other words, one can call "story-game" a rpg where the GM pre-plans a story and guides the players by the nose from point A to point B to C.

Or, 90% of the gaming modules out there. Shoulnt we call those the real "storygames" ?

Quote from: Brad;667551Vampire isn't a storyteller game in the same sense as Dungeon World because there exists a GM who isn't collaborating with the players and instead acts as a referee. Just like Ars Magica has a "troupe method" of play, yet retains a ref to adjudicate conflict.

Well... Especially the nWoD does stress the collaborative aspect fairly heavily. For example:

"Everyone involved in the game participates in telling a group story -- the players create and act out the roles of their characters, and the Storyteller creates and reveals the plot, introducing allies and antagonists with which the players' characters interact. The players' choices throughout the course of the Storytelling experience alter the plot. The Storyteller's job isn't to defend his story from any attempt to change it, but to help create the story as events unfold, reacting to the players' choices and weaving them into a greater whole, introducing secondary characters and exotic settings." (From The World of Darkness, page 22.)

"Storytelling isn't about standing before an audience and reciting memorized lines. It's a shared experience in which every player is involved in creating the story as it unfolds. Unlike interactive computer games, there is no prewritten script -- players don't just stumble along triggering occasional video playbacks. They create events as they go, in competitive cooperation with the Storyteller. The only limit is your imagination. This has been said many times before about many different media, but roleplaying is the truest example of it. Since Storytelling takes place in a collaborative imagined space, uninhibited by the limits of screen pixel count or broadband connection speed, anything can happen as long as it's agreed upon by the players and Storyteller. There are certainly some rules, but they're intended to aid consistency and believability. They can always be thrown out if the Storyteller thinks they impede the actual story." (From The World of Darkness, page 189.)

Well put, Yann.

So I think its fair that, from now on, we call Vampire a storygame too.

Quote from: silva;667556Brad, having not read entirely, nor played, Dungeon World, I cant argue about it. But having played and read (in its entirety) Apocalypse World, I can guarantee you that every criteria you chose for rpgs - GM as a referee, players "playing a game", etc - are pretty much there. So, Apocalypse World is an rpg by your very criteria.

And the irony is that it produces a kind of player-driven gameplay that makes the vast majority of other rpgs out there look like (GM)story-oriented games. In other words, one can call "story-game" a rpg where the GM pre-plans a story and guides the players by the nose from point A to point B to C.

Or, 90% of the gaming modules out there. Shoulnt we call those the real "storygames" ?

I completely understand the desire to not have games you like caregorized as non-rpgs, i dont find arguments that these games are not or cannot be rpgs, all that compelling personally. But when you blatantly try to inverse the disussion into narrative rpgs being the real rpgs and traditional rpgs bing the real story games, it is very hard to take you seriously as a poster.

Quote from: silva;667574Well put, Yann.

So I think its fair that, from now on, we call Vampire a storygame too.

I'm cool with that. If those quotes are legit then the intended purpose of the game per the designers is creating collaborative fiction.

Storygame works great for that.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;667587I'm cool with that. If those quotes are legit then the intended purpose of the game per the designers is creating collaborative fiction.

Storygame works great for that.

Yes, the quote is legit.  In fact, people have been playing RPGs for a lot of goals different than "overcoming obstacles" basically since RPGs first appeared.  For example, Glenn Blacow in 1980 wrote about how games could be divided up into four aspects: power gaming, war gaming, roleplaying, and storytelling.  He defined the "role-playing" aspect as being interested in one's character personality and life, not necessarily in trying to overcome obstacles.  

Whatever the exact terminology, though, the point is that people play RPGs for different reasons - and always have.  Story has often been one of those reasons from early on.  James Bond 007, Star Wars D6, and others also emphasize story in their text about what playing an RPG is about.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;667587I'm cool with that. If those quotes are legit then the intended purpose of the game per the designers is creating collaborative fiction.

Storygame works great for that.

That's why WW games are such shitty story games, and why Ron Edwards talked about WW gamers as brain-damaged because they couldn't understand "story", and that there was a need for games that *actually* did story "well", according to his own criteria. Which spawned a new type of game, not role playing games, but story games.

So in fact, Ron's problem with WW games is that there are traditional RPGs pretending to have an aim at "storytelling" and do it piss poorly, because they are, in fact, traditional RPGs. Like Vampire. Or Star Wars d6. Or James Bond 007.

QED.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;667587If those quotes are legit then the intended purpose of the game per the designers is creating collaborative fiction.

That's essentially the same attitude which the White Wolf games have always taken, at least as far as the GM advice from the books goes. However, it hasn't made them fundamentally different from, say, D&D as far as the actual mechanics are concerned.

Note, though, that the latest rules update (published in The God-Machine Chronicle earlier this year but also available as a free PDF download) phrases for instance character advancement in a slightly different fashion than before: "Throughout the game, Aspirations, Conditions, and certain other criteria allow you to 'take a Beat.' A Beat, in dramatic terms, is time enough for the audience to recognize a plot point or a change for a character. For our purposes, think of it as a unit of drama. Once you've taken five Beats, you gain an Experience."

Aspirations are in-character goals which award Beats when achieved, and Conditions are mostly temporary status effects which award Beats once resolved. But another way of earning those Beats is choosing to turn your PC's regular failure in some action into a dramatic failure.

Quote from: jhkim;667596James Bond 007, Star Wars D6, and others also emphasize story in their text about what playing an RPG is about.

James Bond and Star Wars are still RPGs. I know this for a fact as I own both games, and have played both plenty of times. Using your logic, MERP is a story game because it's about stuff that happens in Middle Earth. Base D&D is a story game because it concerns things that happen in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

Let's not get ridiculous and try to divorce the setting from an RPG; that doesn't even fly for most wargames. SW d6 is firmly an RPG because the goal of the game is to beat the Empire. If the goal was to "see what happens to Rebels when put into strange and dangerous situations", with no emphasis on success, it'd be a story game. At least from how I understand the differentiation.

RE: all this nWoD stuff, I have no experience with it as all the WW games I own are older; Vampire Dark Ages and Changeling. Changeling itself could be called a story game, I suppose. I'm still not entirely sure about it.

Quote from: Brad;667551Vampire isn't a storyteller game in the same sense as Dungeon World because there exists a GM who isn't collaborating with the players and instead acts as a referee. Just like Ars Magica has a "troupe method" of play, yet retains a ref to adjudicate conflict.

What led you to the belief DW doesnt have a GM?

Quote from: TristramEvans;667605What led you to the belief DW doesnt have a GM?

"isn't collaborating" is the key phrase in that sentence.

To clarify yet again, Dungeon World's GM isn't as distinct as a GM in a conventional RPG.

Quote from: Brad;667602James Bond and Star Wars are still RPGs. I know this for a fact as I own both games, and have played both plenty of times. Using your logic, MERP is a story game because it's about stuff that happens in Middle Earth. Base D&D is a story game because it concerns things that happen in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

Let's not get ridiculous and try to divorce the setting from an RPG; that doesn't even fly for most wargames. SW d6 is firmly an RPG because the goal of the game is to beat the Empire. If the goal was to "see what happens to Rebels when put into strange and dangerous situations", with no emphasis on success, it'd be a story game. At least from how I understand the differentiation.

I don't have quotes on hand, but if you read the manuals for James Bond 007 or Star Wars, the material about story comes across very clearly.  (See below for quotes from GURPS and Hero.)  

Regarding the Star Wars setting, I don't see how that differentiates.  Within a Star Wars story game - the game will most likely still be about the characters struggling against the Empire and possibly winning or not.  That tension is one of the things that makes for an interesting story.  

The emphasis on story is in a whole lot of RPGs across the spectrum.  For example, below are some quotes from GURPS (3rd ed) and Hero System (5th ed).  

Quote from: GURPSThus, good roleplaying teaches cooperation among the players, and broadens their viewpoints. But it's not purely educational. It's also one of the most creative possible entertainments. The major difference between roleplaying and other types of entertainment is this: Most entertainment is passive. The audience just sits and watches, without taking part in the creative process.

But in roleplaying, the "audience" joins in the creation. While the GM is the chief storyteller, the players are responsible for creating their own characters. And if they want something to happen in the story, they make it happen, because they're in the story.

So, while other types of media are mass-produced to please the widest possible audience, each roleplaying adventure is an individual gem, crafted by the people who take part in it. The GM (or the original adventure author) provides the raw material . . . but the final polish comes from the players themselves.

Quote from: Hero SystemRoleplaying games are about interactive storytelling: the GM and the players work together to create their own story, rather than reading or watching one created by someone else. Therefore a good GM will learn about the literary devices that make stories work, and use them.

Quote from: jhkim;667609Regarding the Star Wars setting, I don't see how that differentiates.  Within a Star Wars story game - the game will most likely still be about the characters struggling against the Empire and possibly winning or not.  That tension is one of the things that makes for an interesting story.

The story is what you talk about when the game is over; when you're playing the actual game, there is no story. Unlike Dungeon World.

That's the distinction, I think.