Quote from: Spike;344602Ghost:

What about the plot ruined the world for you, just as a point of curiousity?  

If Morrigan is stealing your thunder as a healer mage what on earth do you think if Wynne?

But yes: the number of additional characters does ensure that any given role you have is do-able by an NPC.  I believe that is viewed as a feature: If you see yourself as the party mage, don't take Morrigan along. If you think you are a tank, don't take Alistar, if you think you are a rogue, don't take Liliana or Zevran... they are there for the players who AREN"T doing those things.

Strangely: Despite suckign wind against enemy mages, and playing a DPS fighter (once again... why do all games seem to assume theives make better fighters? Not quite as much here, but still...), I never took Morrigan in my party.  Things looked up when I started making Liliana use a bow... but I've been playing with party compesition a bit recently due to issues with Xbox Live and the downloadable content (namely: I had to scrap all of my previous acheivements and save games to use an entirely new gamertag to log into live and get said content.  Whee!!!  Programming for idiots, I tells ya. Would improve microsoft's output considerably if someone donated a few copies to them...)

What I didn't like about oblivion, aside from velociraptors in dresses was the actual Oblivion plane. Hated it. Hated going there. Hated it's denizens. Hated it. Other than that the actual world is kinda bland but filled with just bizarre words. So is DA, really, but the setting seems a bit deeper and you have a purpose that you can get to grips with much better. Plus I'd rather be in the Fade than Oblivion. In many other respects it is very impressive, but i couldn't get into the world.

I don't say Morrigan steals my thunder per se, it's just she is a mage and there really is nothing unique about her in game terms at all. This is true, afaict, for all party members. They are direct class builds that any player character could emulate. That's a bit of a shame for me.

I also don't think the healer build is that good. Heal takes too long to recharge and most of the other support spells i can see are basically crap. the glyphs are useless. I can cast multiples of paralysis but it's cooldown is insane which renders it pointless. Rejuvenate does bugger all as well. I should think being a combat mage is much much more fun.

I have no problems with the characters themselves just that they are pretty much cookie cutter pc builds in mechanical terms. I'm also not entirely happy having chosen to play a support/healer mage. I had hoped that would be a more interesting choice but the spell choices beyond combat magic aren't much fun it would seem.

The 3 had DLC problems too. Really it seems the console versions got short shrift. I don't necessarily mind the graphic quality but audio sync problems and graphics going tits up i draw the line at. Fortunately these problems are rare enough not to affect the game and it is engaging, if overwhelming trying to learn 4 characters to play at once (you kinda have to, the tactics are badly implemented given they supply nowhere near enough slots).

Ah, I misread: I thought the plot of DRAGON AGE was ruining the world for you.

Being an old school player of Daggerfall on up to Oblivion, I find the world slightly less bland than you did, but I too hated Oblivion (seriously: It gets HARDER to cross the countryside the more you level up... what?!)


I'm not sure what to make about your complaints regarding the class builds. Mechanically just about any game is going to get dull in the mechanics of building. I use Wynne exclusively for my healing (as compared to my roommate who plays a mage healer backing up Wynne), and the ONLY issue with her healing is not that it is hard to do, but that she'll burn through her Mana and just stop.... unless you tell her to drink a potion.

Morrigan is the offensive mage build, but having seen a PC offensive mage in action, there is little 'dull' there.  Inferno, Blizzards, viral plague bombing, raising corpses to fight for you... and we haven't even discussed shape changing. If anything there are TOO MANY options for offensive spell casting (just like you can't be a great dual wielder AND a great sword and board warrior, or you can't be a great backstabber AND a great archer... only mages got like... four routes of awesome.. which makes up for the lack of great mage gear I suppose).

I did enjoy the Fade myself, but I didn't mind the Oblivion realm other than the sort of sameness after umpteen iterations of it... which DA avoids by only letting you in the Fade... twice?


Also: My cheat for Oblivion: Make a custom class where all your class skills are 'dump skills' you never plan on actually using. THis way you can play the entire game at 'level one' and still be an utter badass with your 100% weapon and armor and magic skills... and if the lack of HP or sweet gear drops gets old, you can CHOSE to level up those same class skills to 'ding' just enough to get what you want without overpowering the world around you...

Its wrong but it feels... sooooo.... right.

what spell raises the dead?

I'd have to ask my room-mate, but I think its in the entropy school.  

Note: THis provides a zombie 'pet' to fight on your side. There is a seperate spell, which Wynne should have already, that 'raises' the dead party members to keep fighting.  Revive I think its called. It's a template, which means it can hit multiple party members at once, if they died close enough together.

This game isn't balanced at all. And there are some phenomenally stupid things in it. Such as the abandoned camp in the forest that's a trap that kills off your entire party except you. This leaves you to fight a Shade that I couldn't damage as my character isn't a fighter, he's a healer. I guess the devs didn't assume that peopel would play such a character, despite giving us the option. I must say I'm pretty gobsmacked at such amateurish game design. Things like this really spoil it.
I'ts fortunate that I'm fairly forgiving of big rpg's because there's an awful lot of really stupid stuff in this game. The spells are a joke to be frank: cooldown times and mana costs are completely out of whack. Despite the options available it clearly favours characters who can fight. There's a lot of stuff you can pick up and learn but in order to do so, such as the specialisations, you have to find the person who can unlock the means to do so. I have no idea where i'd find someone who can teach spirit healer.

Played both console and PC versions.  Console versions were fairly gimped, unfortunately, and not ported by Bioware themselves (noted an extra title screen on the 360 version from a company I've never heard of -- outsourced port, I guess).

Easy mode on PC == Normal mode on console.  Less enemies on the 360 version, very poor textures and framerates, and no tactical view.  The game is also much less challenging and tactically engaging IMO, due to the reduced difficulty and the control scheme.  In the PC version they actually had to increase the default stats for NPC party members in the first patch because people were having such trouble moving forward through the campaign -- though it's probably these people never played a classic CRPG in their life and so the whole "needing to use tactics" thing took them off-guard.  The tactical feel on the PC version is a much welcome change of pace from Mass Effect and Fallout 3's "action RPG" schtick.

I didn't really expect anything else, since it was in development for PC as an exclusive and their hand was forced by EA and marketing considerations when deciding to port to consoles.

Differences in versions aside, it's a far better game than NWN (1 or 2) in terms of plot, dialogue, and how the mechanics are handled.  The ruleset is very much an opaque PC game ruleset and not a tabletop ruleset (thank you God), so it flows much better than games based on traditional tabletop systems.  I'm finding the dialogue and world, though a bit "generic" in the fantasy sense, extremely well-polished and filled-up compared to Mass Effect, which had a great main-plot, but a very underdeveloped world when it came to exploration and side-quests.

Graphically, the PC version is gorgeous, and I see no real reason to beat on it for subpar graphics until you've had a chance to play it on a capable machine (which doesn't take much, since I'm running on a 4 year old processor and a 9800GT I got for around 140 USD).  Sure, it's not going to be Unreal Engine 3.0 pretty, but RPGs have never been graphical powerhouses compared to FPSes.

Overall, an improvement over Mass Effect (which I also liked very much), with a nice return to when CRPGs were challenging and required a bit of thought, with enough decent writing and voice-acting to make Bethesda's last few efforts look amateurish.

QuoteI'ts fortunate that I'm fairly forgiving of big rpg's because there's an awful lot of really stupid stuff in this game. The spells are a joke to be frank: cooldown times and mana costs are completely out of whack. Despite the options available it clearly favours characters who can fight. There's a lot of stuff you can pick up and learn but in order to do so, such as the specialisations, you have to find the person who can unlock the means to do so. I have no idea where i'd find someone who can teach spirit healer.

Heard of mana potions?

Also, I'm running with two mages in my party, atm.  They're a very useful and powerful class -- I'm absolutely tearing shit up and I've only got one fighter --  so I don't think there's any imbalance.  It just takes a bit of thought when choosing which spells to use, but that's what the space-bar (or command menu on the consoles) is for -- you can pause and think about your next move.  Applying buffs and debuffs at the right time as well as managing your area-affect spells is essential and can mean the difference between a clean wipe and a TPK.  It's also a good idea to cast spells in succession -- basically, area effect, debuff, buff party, heal, area effect, debuff, etc and keep cycling so your cooldown times don't burden your mage's abilities too much.  

Personally, I'm finding each class fits nicely into a party dynamic that each gives them their own niche without stepping on each other's toes too much.

Also, playing with a controller makes the game much more finnicky, IMO, but it was originally meant to be a PC game in the first place, and EA forced Bioware to release it on consoles, so what can you expect with the decision to port it left in the hands of EA?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344627what spell raises the dead?

Which one?  There's one that brings a "dead" party member back into the fight, and one that raises an enemy as a zombie.  I think that one's in the Mind school, counterintuitively.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344664This game isn't balanced at all. And there are some phenomenally stupid things in it. Such as the abandoned camp in the forest that's a trap that kills off your entire party except you. This leaves you to fight a Shade that I couldn't damage as my character isn't a fighter, he's a healer. I guess the devs didn't assume that peopel would play such a character, despite giving us the option.   I must say I'm pretty gobsmacked at such amateurish game design. Things like this really spoil it.

You don't always get sucked in.  You have a good chance to avoid it with a high Will.  Really, the best way to deal with that little situation is to completely avoid it.  Reload, and don't go there again!  It's like a classic Gygaxian Killer Room.

IMO, it's a pretty good example of proficient game design.  Much like the chests scattered here and there, you can't always solve all the problems right away with your main character.  If you could, it'd kill replay value.

QuoteI'ts fortunate that I'm fairly forgiving of big rpg's because there's an awful lot of really stupid stuff in this game. The spells are a joke to be frank: cooldown times and mana costs are completely out of whack. Despite the options available it clearly favours characters who can fight. There's a lot of stuff you can pick up and learn but in order to do so, such as the specialisations, you have to find the person who can unlock the means to do so. I have no idea where i'd find someone who can teach spirit healer.

:O

I've played as all three classes, and of the three, I'd say it's spellcasting that makes the game a cakewalk.  IMO, Rogue is the hardest to work with, but it really pays off.  The key is that you need to keep a good spread of spells.  Just like in D&D, obsessive focus on just one category of spells is a losing strategy.  Even if you love Fire, pick up Winter's Grasp.  Even if you're a healer, learn some Elemental or Entropy spells for damage.

Quote from: Spike;344622Being an old school player of Daggerfall on up to Oblivion, I find the world slightly less bland than you did, but I too hated Oblivion (seriously: It gets HARDER to cross the countryside the more you level up... what?!) ...
Also: My cheat for Oblivion: Make a custom class where all your class skills are 'dump skills' you never plan on actually using. THis way you can play the entire game at 'level one' and still be an utter badass with your 100% weapon and armor and magic skills... and if the lack of HP or sweet gear drops gets old, you can CHOSE to level up those same class skills to 'ding' just enough to get what you want without overpowering the world around you...

Its wrong but it feels... sooooo.... right.

Yeah, that was on the annoying side, but I understood it to appeal to more casual gamers.  (My wife would have never gotten into Oblivion if the game hadn't been level-scaled, and it turned into her favorite game.)  I prefer less scaling, and fortunately, on the PC version, there are a number of fixes for it.  My personal fave is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, which changes ... well, damn near everything about the game.  There's still some level adjustment, but not much at all - it was tweaked very well, IMO, once it hit later versions.

Modding Oblivion was at least half the fun, and it kept the game interesting to my wife and me for at least a year and a half.  While I love the game, it's just not as awesome without extras like the AF Leveling mod (leveling makes sense!), Qarl's Texture Pak 3 (insanely gorgeous graphics), Quest Award Leveling (quest items level with you), Natural Environments, and Illumination Within (for lit windows at night).

It turns a good game into a completely compelling open world.

-O

Quote

Quote from: Peregrin;344691Played both console and PC versions.  Console versions were fairly gimped, unfortunately, and not ported by Bioware themselves (noted an extra title screen on the 360 version from a company I've never heard of -- outsourced port, I guess).

Edge of reason. Didn't occur to me that Bioware wouldn't be responsible for the port. That's a shame, Bioware are capable of much better. Despite the laothsome iteration of the Star Wars universe, KOTOR stands the test of time and has an excellent combat system.

QuoteEasy mode on PC == Normal mode on console.  Less enemies on the 360 version, very poor textures and framerates, and no tactical view.  The game is also much less challenging and tactically engaging IMO, due to the reduced difficulty and the control scheme.  In the PC version they actually had to increase the default stats for NPC party members in the first patch because people were having such trouble moving forward through the campaign -- though it's probably these people never played a classic CRPG in their life and so the whole "needing to use tactics" thing took them off-guard.  The tactical feel on the PC version is a much welcome change of pace from Mass Effect and Fallout 3's "action RPG" schtick.

I don't mind the graphics in game too much. They aren't great during most cut scenes, but some environments are lacklustre (like the forest). The game world seems quite small tbh.

The problem with combat is that the two sides just mash into each other leaving me with no control over anything unless i constantly flip between people and move them. That's what tactics are for, but they are poorly implemented. Friendly fire doesn't really help. Neither do half the support spells.

QuoteI didn't really expect anything else, since it was in development for PC as an exclusive and their hand was forced by EA and marketing considerations when deciding to port to consoles.

That's not the impression, obviously, given to console gamers.

QuoteGraphically, the PC version is gorgeous, and I see no real reason to beat on it for subpar graphics until you've had a chance to play it on a capable machine (which doesn't take much, since I'm running on a 4 year old processor and a 9800GT I got for around 140 USD).  Sure, it's not going to be Unreal Engine 3.0 pretty, but RPGs have never been graphical powerhouses compared to FPSes.

I haven't beaten on the pc version, i've never played nor will i since my machine cant run it.

QuoteOverall, an improvement over Mass Effect (which I also liked very much), with a nice return to when CRPGs were challenging and required a bit of thought, with enough decent writing and voice-acting to make Bethesda's last few efforts look amateurish.

Sorry, but Fallout 3 puts this in the shade.

QuoteHeard of mana potions?

Having to constantly rely on potions to perform spells is not smart game design. You burn through mana too quickly, potions or otherwise.

QuoteAlso, I'm running with two mages in my party, atm.  They're a very useful and powerful class -- I'm absolutely tearing shit up and I've only got one fighter --  so I don't think there's any imbalance.  

depends what spells you use. offensive mages are much more powerful and fun compared to the crap support powers you can get. The game doesn't even give you enough info on the spells effects.

I'm not terribly happy about having to discover how to to unlock specialisations. Why give the player the means to do so (ie the point at level 7) and then force him to guess the secret that allows him to access it?

Quote from: obryn;344694You don't always get sucked in.  You have a good chance to avoid it with a high Will.  Really, the best way to deal with that little situation is to completely avoid it.  Reload, and don't go there again!  It's like a classic Gygaxian Killer Room.

I think it's an example of some of the worst game design I've ever seen. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything more stupid than to force the player into a situation that, at best, is a massive inconvenience.

Forcing me to reload my last save? Might as well have a sequence that causes the game to just shut down. It's just that stupid.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344715I'm not terribly happy about having to discover how to to unlock specialisations. Why give the player the means to do so (ie the point at level 7) and then force him to guess the secret that allows him to access it?

Specializations are based on your profile, not the specific character.  If you unlock Champion, you can use it for any Fighter you make, as soon as they hit level 7.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344717I think it's an example of some of the worst game design I've ever seen. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything more stupid than to force the player into a situation that, at best, is a massive inconvenience.

Forcing me to reload my last save? Might as well have a sequence that causes the game to just shut down. It's just that stupid.

Like I said, it's not deadly for every kind of character - and many characters can even resist the spell of the lure.  Just like my dwarf fighter can't open locked chests or heal his allies, a mage without offensive spells of any kind is hurting when running solo.  I like the choices I make when building my character to have consequences.  That's what this is - a consequence.

-O

Quote from: obryn;344785Specializations are based on your profile, not the specific character.  If you unlock Champion, you can use it for any Fighter you make, as soon as they hit level 7.


Like I said, it's not deadly for every kind of character - and many characters can even resist the spell of the lure.  Just like my dwarf fighter can't open locked chests or heal his allies, a mage without offensive spells of any kind is hurting when running solo.  I like the choices I make when building my character to have consequences.  That's what this is - a consequence.

-O

There's a lot of really really stupid stuff in this game that spoils it. That's about all i can say to sum it up. In all other respects its quite fun. But there are times when the decision making from the devs leaves me scratching my head. Morrigan for instance: here's a character that resents you doing anything to help anyone it seems. Now that would be fine were it not for the fact that if you played the game her way you'd end up not doing half the quests. That's rather stupid IMO.

I've also noticed there are times when the game swarms you with mobs; this just doesn't work well on the console version at all.

I think the control scheme from KOTOR was vastly superior, and that's an old game!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344788There's a lot of really really stupid stuff in this game that spoils it. That's about all i can say to sum it up. In all other respects its quite fun. But there are times when the decision making from the devs leaves me scratching my head. Morrigan for instance: here's a character that resents you doing anything to help anyone it seems. Now that would be fine were it not for the fact that if you played the game her way you'd end up not doing half the quests. That's rather stupid IMO.

...which is why you don't listen to her, or leave her behind at camp.  I just can't see NPCs with conflicting personalities as detrimental to an immersive RPG.  Not all of the NPCs will match with your play-style, and not all of them will like whatever it is you're doing in the game.  I don't see that as an inherently stupid design decision.

QuoteI've also noticed there are times when the game swarms you with mobs; this just doesn't work well on the console version at all.

Yep, that'd suck...  I am growing very reliant on the top-down Baldur's Gate-style view for big combats.  I don't know how I'd do some of the crazier fights without it.  It's disappointing they don't include that on the console version.

QuoteI think the control scheme from KOTOR was vastly superior, and that's an old game!

I can't speak to it on the console, but I think DA is improved on the PC - especially the above-mentioned top-down angle...

-O

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344664This game isn't balanced at all. And there are some phenomenally stupid things in it. Such as the abandoned camp in the forest that's a trap that kills off your entire party except you. This leaves you to fight a Shade that I couldn't damage as my character isn't a fighter, he's a healer. I guess the devs didn't assume that peopel would play such a character, despite giving us the option. I must say I'm pretty gobsmacked at such amateurish game design. Things like this really spoil it.
I'ts fortunate that I'm fairly forgiving of big rpg's because there's an awful lot of really stupid stuff in this game. The spells are a joke to be frank: cooldown times and mana costs are completely out of whack. Despite the options available it clearly favours characters who can fight. There's a lot of stuff you can pick up and learn but in order to do so, such as the specialisations, you have to find the person who can unlock the means to do so. I have no idea where i'd find someone who can teach spirit healer.

Yes, the abandoned camp is stupid.  Moreso: Everyone but you dies and you have to spend Injury Kits to repair their death damage once they get back up!  Even a healer should have SOME damage dealing potential, man!  

Spirit healer: Wynne teaches it (MOST specialities are available from party members if they like you.  Leiliana teachs bard, Zevram teaches assassin, Ogren teaches berserker, Alistar teaches Templar, Morrigan teaches Shapeshifter)

It is also for sale in a book from the magic shop (and maybe from teh dwarf merchant in camp...). They don't SAY they teach specialities, but when you use them you get specialities. I KNOW the book from Denerim teaches spirit healer.

Blood Mage and Reaver both come from evil NPC choices (BM from the desire demon in teh fade in Redcliffe and Reaver from Kolgar on the way to Andraste's ashes). Ranger is only available in book form from teh Dwarf in camp, and Berserker is in book form from the dwarf merchant in denerim. Duellist is from a book (Dwarf in Camp?) or from the chick in the whorehouse in Denerim who you can have a three or foursome with.

Next question?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;344717I think it's an example of some of the worst game design I've ever seen. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything more stupid than to force the player into a situation that, at best, is a massive inconvenience.

Forcing me to reload my last save? Might as well have a sequence that causes the game to just shut down. It's just that stupid.

I am fairly certain that there is a 'stamina/mana' regenerating spell available in the 'healer area' of mage spells.  It even comes in 'all party members' flavor.


Also: the comment about NPC stats: yeah. At the high end you need one or more stats above 30... fighters will need at the end of the day a strength of roughly 42. Hard to do for the NPCs without leaving them gimped in just about everything else, like Constitution (for hit points) or will (to resist those damn pesky spells...)...

If they started any lower than they do I imagine the game was damn near unplayable.  Unless you really carefully manage your specialized roles for the party members they play very broken (making Leliana into a dagger/stealth/lockpicky rogue almost destroyed her and thus game play with her in the party. Give her a bow and she can still contribute to fights AND open locks... stuff like that...weird, as she doesn't actually start with a bow, but she has a bow talent...)

Tbh i finished the nature of the best quest line with the dalish elves in the forest. It sums up my feelings about the game I think: I didn't feel 'good' completing it. It just felt awkward and rather dull. The whole thing in the ruins (where about 16 skeletons just spawn around you at one point and mob you) is borderline tedious. I would have had to schlep all the way back to the Dalish camp to get more supplies. The camp didn't sell flasks so my herbalism was useless. Constatnly burning through mana potions and having to manage the team in huge fights just gets awkward.

I gave leliana a bow, but the ai will change how she fights regardless of her tactics. I find Alistair a huge liability no matter how I program him. I thought the tactics idea at first was fun, but the lack of slots (having to buy them with skill points is a bad idea IMO) and the general crap nature of the ai makes combat not fun. That's the problem: you control a single character where the game is scaled around a party of 4. Consequently you just get overwhelmed. Area effect attacks and friendly fire just add to the misery. I imagine the pC version is vastly superior. It's all compounded by the general miserable nature of the graphics as well.

Not quite the game I was expecting and Im not sure what I want to do with it. I really was expecting something like Oblivion but it kinda plays like an awkward and over complicated version of the Marvel game.