Quote from: David Johansen on April 17, 2024, 09:44:46 AMCustodes suck and puting girls in won't change that either way.

Give me Rogue Trader era Custodes with their shirts off and maybe we can talk reasonabley.

I think the most telling thing about the "there should be female space marines" camp is that they've been whining about it for eight edtions now.  There were some "female space marine models in the Rogue Trader Adventurers range.  What they were called, I do not know but you couldn't complain they didn't exist at the time.

Female Warrior Gabs and Female Warrior Jayne were adventurers who wore Space Marine style power armor.

https://gamesworkshop.fandom.com/wiki/Female_Space_Marines

They were never marketed as "Female Space Marines" and were more likely a very early version of Sisters of Battle.

There were never Female Space Marine models, and several mentions in lore that the process only works on males.

Fair enough, the armour's the same, only skinnier but mercenaries and all kinds of folks were using MK VI armour back in the day.

The problem is that people love the setting and are heavily invested in it.  But of course you can use Grim Dark Future for rules and buy proxies from all the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies.

It'd be nice if something would come along that would scratch that itch for people.  For a long time now, I've been saying the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies should all get behind a single new setting and system to unify their customer base instead of all having their own.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 17, 2024, 08:03:49 PMFair enough, the armour's the same, only skinnier but mercenaries and all kinds of folks were using MK VI armour back in the day.

The problem is that people love the setting and are heavily invested in it.  But of course you can use Grim Dark Future for rules and buy proxies from all the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies.

It'd be nice if something would come along that would scratch that itch for people.  For a long time now, I've been saying the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies should all get behind a single new setting and system to unify their customer base instead of all having their own.

As you say, Grimdark Future from the One Page Rules line has been gaining momenum.  Espeically with GW being a major dissapointment for various reasons, not only culture war stuff.

https://www.onepagerules.com/

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2024, 08:56:10 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW0PZy5UvlY

GW retcons female Custodes, gaslights fans that there were female Custodes all along...
GW stonks fall. Coinkydink?

For those who don't know 40k, the Custodes were one of the Emprah's many genetic engineering projects along with the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines. So this is within spitting distance of retconning Female Space Marines.

was going to share some images but it seems we can no longer upload those.

I haven't seen anyone mention it, but the use of the she pronoun doesn't mean that the Custodian wasn't born (and remains) male, right?

They are 'trans-human' after all...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 18, 2024, 12:03:32 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 17, 2024, 08:03:49 PMFair enough, the armour's the same, only skinnier but mercenaries and all kinds of folks were using MK VI armour back in the day.

The problem is that people love the setting and are heavily invested in it.  But of course you can use Grim Dark Future for rules and buy proxies from all the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies.

It'd be nice if something would come along that would scratch that itch for people.  For a long time now, I've been saying the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies should all get behind a single new setting and system to unify their customer base instead of all having their own.

As you say, Grimdark Future from the One Page Rules line has been gaining momenum.  Espeically with GW being a major dissapointment for various reasons, not only culture war stuff.

https://www.onepagerules.com/

Grimdark Future has female space marines tho. The backstory for the battle sisters is that they were created because the god-king banned women from serving, so his girlfriend made her own queendom with female space marines. That's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can't speak for anyone else.

Anyway, I've been saying for years that corpos cannot steward their IPs and we need the fans to make their own. IPs inevitably rot or get canceled for lame reasons, so you can't rely on anyone other than dedicated fans to maintain them.

We also need to reform copyright law to preserve old forgotten works, but that's gonna be harder.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 11:19:55 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 18, 2024, 12:03:32 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 17, 2024, 08:03:49 PMFair enough, the armour's the same, only skinnier but mercenaries and all kinds of folks were using MK VI armour back in the day.

The problem is that people love the setting and are heavily invested in it.  But of course you can use Grim Dark Future for rules and buy proxies from all the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies.

It'd be nice if something would come along that would scratch that itch for people.  For a long time now, I've been saying the NOTWARHAMMERPROXY companies should all get behind a single new setting and system to unify their customer base instead of all having their own.

As you say, Grimdark Future from the One Page Rules line has been gaining momenum.  Espeically with GW being a major dissapointment for various reasons, not only culture war stuff.

https://www.onepagerules.com/

Grimdark Future has female space marines tho. The backstory for the battle sisters is that they were created because the god-king banned women from serving, so his girlfriend made her own queendom with female space marines. That's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can't speak for anyone else.

One Page Rules will give a gamer a "living game" that's got rules updates and they can use lore from older editions of 40k, since many of the factions in Grimdark Future are famous IP's with just enough differences to make them identifiable but not infringing on copyright.

IE One Page Rules is a way to play with your old figures and old rulebooks with a current system that means you can go to the local game store and everyone is on the... same page... ruleswise.

And most importantly, not give GW any more money.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 17, 2024, 09:44:46 AMI think the most telling thing about the "there should be female space marines" camp is that they've been whining about it for eight edtions now.  There were some "female space marine models in the Rogue Trader Adventurers range.  What they were called, I do not know but you couldn't complain they didn't exist at the time.

They were just called "female warriors," but if you pay attention to the designs on their power armor you see that they are Rogue Trader era Sisters of Battle (they have the insignia from the main Rogue Trader rule book molded on).

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 18, 2024, 11:26:21 AMOne Page Rules will give a gamer a "living game" that's got rules updates and they can use lore from older editions of 40k, since many of the factions in Grimdark Future are famous IP's with just enough differences to make them identifiable but not infringing on copyright.

IE One Page Rules is a way to play with your old figures and old rulebooks with a current system that means you can go to the local game store and everyone is on the... same page... ruleswise.

And most importantly, not give GW any more money.

What exactly are you supposed to do if you're interested in non-miniatures media like rpgs, video games, books, etc?

I don't see the point, and I think it's funny how the usual characters are playing it off as no big deal, while also celebrating it like it's some victory. If it's not a big deal, why bother to change the lore that way anyway?

It's also the way they made the change: a crappy reply Tweet that just asserts they've always been there even though theres no lore suggesting that. It's the same thing as when they gave the Emperor a female assistant to aid in the creation of Space Marines. It was an unnecessary change that undermined the lore rather than improve it.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMI don't see the point, and I think it's funny how the usual characters are playing it off as no big deal, while also celebrating it like it's some victory. If it's not a big deal, why bother to change the lore that way anyway?

If it's not a big deal, then why does it matter if it gets changed?

Custodes are engineered supersoldiers. I don't think it matters what they had between their legs before they were modified.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's also the way they made the change: a crappy reply Tweet that just asserts they've always been there even though theres no lore suggesting that.

GW has done this on numerous occasions. It's called retconning.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's the same thing as when they gave the Emperor a female assistant to aid in the creation of Space Marines. It was an unnecessary change that undermined the lore rather than improve it.

They gave the Emperor two female assistants: Amar Astarte and Erda. They were introduced in two separate works by two separate authors who didn't seem to know about the other's work, so they're both credited with creating the primarchs and scattering them. I find it odd that no editor caught this, but GW probably isn't paying attention.

I'm not going to cast aspersions that fans are misogynistic chuds because that's obviously not true, but I definitely think the nerds are being OCD and overly sensitive to these retcons. I don't blame them for being overly sensitive given the past mistreatment, but you're still being overly sensitive and giving your opponents ammunition to use against you.

While I think GW's PR here is terrible, I don't see any compelling reason to maintain that Custodes and Astartes all had pickles before they were recruited.

The reason why Sisters of Battle are female has to do with social and legal reasons in the background, which were deliberately written so as to have an all-female army. The Ecclesiarchy is legally barred from having men at arms, but the loophole is that they can still employ women at arms.

The reason why Custodes and Astartes were historically male is because we just assumed they were because their miniatures lacked boobs due to disinterest in making models with boobs, then later on various writers contrived lore reasons for them to be male. Their appearance could just as easily have been explained as the procedures masculinizing female recruits, or just not called out (e.g. the Little Sisters of Purification used regular models despite being female).

There's no female guard models, but I don't see people arguing that there's no female guard. There's copious examples in the lore, just not on the table. Why are Custodes and Astartes being treated differently?

GW is guilty of tons of awful stuff, like suing innocent housewives (google "Spots the Space Marine"), but instead fans fixate on irrelevant trivia like this.

If you're genuinely upset about this stuff, then make your own games. I already hate GW so I'd patronize you for that reason alone. We need more alternatives to their monopoly.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 01:27:50 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 18, 2024, 11:26:21 AMOne Page Rules will give a gamer a "living game" that's got rules updates and they can use lore from older editions of 40k, since many of the factions in Grimdark Future are famous IP's with just enough differences to make them identifiable but not infringing on copyright.

IE One Page Rules is a way to play with your old figures and old rulebooks with a current system that means you can go to the local game store and everyone is on the... same page... ruleswise.

And most importantly, not give GW any more money.

What exactly are you supposed to do if you're interested in non-miniatures media like rpgs, video games, books, etc?

Unless they can reach into your home and retcon what you bought and own I don't see a problem:

Keep playing what you enjoy, re-read what you love and ONLY buy new stuff from people that don't hate you.

Now, if you MUST have new products for a converged IP then homebrew/fanfic it out of thin air.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 02:51:36 PM

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMI don't see the point, and I think it's funny how the usual characters are playing it off as no big deal, while also celebrating it like it's some victory. If it's not a big deal, why bother to change the lore that way anyway?

If it's not a big deal, then why does it matter if it gets changed?

Custodes are engineered supersoldiers. I don't think it matters what they had between their legs before they were modified.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's also the way they made the change: a crappy reply Tweet that just asserts they've always been there even though theres no lore suggesting that.

GW has done this on numerous occasions. It's called retconning.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's the same thing as when they gave the Emperor a female assistant to aid in the creation of Space Marines. It was an unnecessary change that undermined the lore rather than improve it.

They gave the Emperor two female assistants: Amar Astarte and Erda. They were introduced in two separate works by two separate authors who didn't seem to know about the other's work, so they're both credited with creating the primarchs and scattering them. I find it odd that no editor caught this, but GW probably isn't paying attention.

I'm not going to cast aspersions that fans are misogynistic chuds because that's obviously not true, but I definitely think the nerds are being OCD and overly sensitive to these retcons. I don't blame them for being overly sensitive given the past mistreatment, but you're still being overly sensitive and giving your opponents ammunition to use against you.

While I think GW's PR here is terrible, I don't see any compelling reason to maintain that Custodes and Astartes all had pickles before they were recruited.

The reason why Sisters of Battle are female has to do with social and legal reasons in the background, which were deliberately written so as to have an all-female army. The Ecclesiarchy is legally barred from having men at arms, but the loophole is that they can still employ women at arms.

The reason why Custodes and Astartes were historically male is because we just assumed they were because their miniatures lacked boobs due to disinterest in making models with boobs, then later on various writers contrived lore reasons for them to be male. Their appearance could just as easily have been explained as the procedures masculinizing female recruits, or just not called out (e.g. the Little Sisters of Purification used regular models despite being female).

There's no female guard models, but I don't see people arguing that there's no female guard. There's copious examples in the lore, just not on the table. Why are Custodes and Astartes being treated differently?

GW is guilty of tons of awful stuff, like suing innocent housewives (google "Spots the Space Marine"), but instead fans fixate on irrelevant trivia like this.

If you're genuinely upset about this stuff, then make your own games. I already hate GW so I'd patronize you for that reason alone. We need more alternatives to their monopoly.

So you're telling us that NERDS wouldn't have bought big tiddies space babes?

No, it's not an "assumption" needed, it's right there in black and white in the lore, hence why you yourself call it a retcon.

But I guess the SoB & SoS were never produced, because there's no interest in buying ergo no interest in producing female models.

But you got one thing almost right:

People SHOULD stop giving ANY money to GW, buy Grimdark Future from OnePageRules and play it using the models you already own or buy the STLs from them and 3d print the models you want.

Because by playing WH40K you are giving them time, attention, publicity and market position.

So quit playing it, play other things.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 02:51:36 PM

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMI don't see the point, and I think it's funny how the usual characters are playing it off as no big deal, while also celebrating it like it's some victory. If it's not a big deal, why bother to change the lore that way anyway?

If it's not a big deal, then why does it matter if it gets changed?

Custodes are engineered supersoldiers. I don't think it matters what they had between their legs before they were modified.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's also the way they made the change: a crappy reply Tweet that just asserts they've always been there even though theres no lore suggesting that.

GW has done this on numerous occasions. It's called retconning.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on April 18, 2024, 01:30:22 PMIt's the same thing as when they gave the Emperor a female assistant to aid in the creation of Space Marines. It was an unnecessary change that undermined the lore rather than improve it.

They gave the Emperor two female assistants: Amar Astarte and Erda. They were introduced in two separate works by two separate authors who didn't seem to know about the other's work, so they're both credited with creating the primarchs and scattering them. I find it odd that no editor caught this, but GW probably isn't paying attention.

I'm not going to cast aspersions that fans are misogynistic chuds because that's obviously not true, but I definitely think the nerds are being OCD and overly sensitive to these retcons. I don't blame them for being overly sensitive given the past mistreatment, but you're still being overly sensitive and giving your opponents ammunition to use against you.

While I think GW's PR here is terrible, I don't see any compelling reason to maintain that Custodes and Astartes all had pickles before they were recruited.

The reason why Sisters of Battle are female has to do with social and legal reasons in the background, which were deliberately written so as to have an all-female army. The Ecclesiarchy is legally barred from having men at arms, but the loophole is that they can still employ women at arms.

The reason why Custodes and Astartes were historically male is because we just assumed they were because their miniatures lacked boobs due to disinterest in making models with boobs, then later on various writers contrived lore reasons for them to be male. Their appearance could just as easily have been explained as the procedures masculinizing female recruits, or just not called out (e.g. the Little Sisters of Purification used regular models despite being female).

There's no female guard models, but I don't see people arguing that there's no female guard. There's copious examples in the lore, just not on the table. Why are Custodes and Astartes being treated differently?

GW is guilty of tons of awful stuff, like suing innocent housewives (google "Spots the Space Marine"), but instead fans fixate on irrelevant trivia like this.

If you're genuinely upset about this stuff, then make your own games. I already hate GW so I'd patronize you for that reason alone. We need more alternatives to their monopoly.

Wait, aren't you the guy who whines in every Vampire-adjacent thread about all the terrible things that White Wolf did to the lore and game?  But female Space Marines are no big deal and fans should get over it?  Perhaps you should step back and reevaluate...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 02:51:36 PMWhile I think GW's PR here is terrible, I don't see any compelling reason to maintain that Custodes and Astartes all had pickles before they were recruited.

Because that's the lore. They've been described as 'sons' and 'brotherhood'. They've been explicitly called all-male. Can some be female? Sure. And some can be Orks or Eldar. Or Tyrannids. It's just lore, why not ret-con it all?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2024, 02:51:36 PMThe reason why Sisters of Battle are female has to do with social and legal reasons in the background, which were deliberately written so as to have an all-female army. The Ecclesiarchy is legally barred from having men at arms, but the loophole is that they can still employ women at arms.

But why should that lore stand? Why not ret-con it too, and have male 'Sisters' of Battle? For that matter, why not get rid of all that nasty 'war' stuff, and make the games about male Sisters of Battle meeting up with Orks in coffee shops to discuss toppling the patriarchy? It's just lore, they can ret-con that too.