Quote from: Ddogwood;840943The real problem here is that people in the middle are unable to comment on these issues without being labeled as extremists.  It's getting as bad as the abortion debate, where saying that you don't like abortion but are glad it's available gets you labelled as both an oppressor of women's bodies and a killer of babies.

Of course, "if you arent 100% with us in every way, you are against us and that makes you evil" is part and parcel of any extremist philosophy.

QuoteI HATE how a minority of extremists on the internet get to dominate every fucking discussion by labeling people as "SJWs" or "Gamergaters" or whatever term is in vogue to imply that someone's opinion doesn't matter.

My experience is only of people labelling themselves as "SJWs" or "gamergaters". OTOH, lots of people like to label others as "sexist" misogynist" or "racist". But I think what you're describing is the simplistic and dichotomous worldview of extremists where the world is divided into "them" and "not them". This is, in part I think, human nature. Its amusing how many primitive cultures wordlwide have a name for themselves which directly translates as "humans" or "people" and then names for everyone else, which largely mean "not people". The Other is dehumanized. This simplistic division can be seen everywhere from the modern political climate (liberals vs conservatives) to classic religious thought  (Christian vs heathen/pagan). Simplistic worldviews tend to be comforting, they dont require much thought and they excuse generalizations and prejudices rather than having to consider people as individuals.

Reminds me of the old joke: "There are two types of people in the world: people who think there are two types of people in the world, and everyone else"

Quote from: Piestrio;840019You can't engage with the perpetually outraged.

They are never happy with victory.

They. never. stop.

They're text-book totalitarians.

Yep, once they win they just shift to their next target.

How in the hell can you expect a middle ground when one side doesn't even want a middle ground at all and doing every thing in their power to push for "progress"?

Quote from: Ddogwood;840943I disagree.  By arguing a point too strongly, you either tend to entrench people in an opposed position, or discourage moderates from entering the debate at all.  In my experience, when people come out with guns blazing like this, everyone else either starts arguing against every single point or gets the hell out of the way.  The fact that some people in this thread are suggesting that the truth lies in the middle in this case is a rare exception to how these things usually play out.

I have observed things to be otherwise; most threads of any length on a contentious topic, not only will centrist positions be presented, but someone almost always explicitly runs a South Park style "truth in the middle" line.  I'm pretty sure that if you look through several threads that have discussed Gamergate on this board, for example, you will find that was the case.

Arguing a point too strongly and antagonizing someone doesn't matter when using bullying tactics to coerce compliance, rather than simply conversing with no expectation of altered behavior on the target's part.  The more antagonized the target, the more likely to feel threatened they are; this is what I perceive social justice bullies to desire.

There is a preponderance of good faith posters on this message board, and a lack of social justice allies with administrative authority to squelch discussion.  This makes such bullying tactics ineffective here when it comes to something like Gamergate or racist orcs.  Examine how such discussions take place on other forums, and you will find these tactics were effective at silencing dissent.

Quote from: Ddogwood;840943Sure, but that doesn't mean there is NEVER a middle.  This particular case is a good example of an excluded middle.  I have no problem telling people that I don't think their "unit filler" of naked female barbarians with boob jobs is funny or clever.  I also have no problem telling people that I don't think cultural appropriation is a big issue in Bob's Mongol-themed Space Marine army.

The real problem here is that people in the middle are unable to comment on these issues without being labeled as extremists.  It's getting as bad as the abortion debate, where saying that you don't like abortion but are glad it's available gets you labelled as both an oppressor of women's bodies and a killer of babies.  

I HATE how a minority of extremists on the internet get to dominate every fucking discussion by labeling people as "SJWs" or "Gamergaters" or whatever term is in vogue to imply that someone's opinion doesn't matter.

Yet, these centrist opinions have been voiced on this board, and have not been silenced.  I clearly don't think much of them, but somehow I suspect Old Geezer will get over it.  I don't have administrative power or a personality cult to leverage against him, wouldn't do it if I did (I hope), and in any case he's lived long enough that it probably wouldn't work.

I disagree with two things here, both the subject of the thread (an attempt at initiating an SJW bullying campaign), and what I perceived to be an invocation of the "two sides" fallacy, that because there were two sides quarreling both must be in the wrong.  Sure it takes two to tango, but only one of 'em has to want a fight to get a fight.  I don't think you or Old Geezer are extremists on this account, or SJWs, or anything of the sort, particularly because I don't see you using bullying tactics.  I just disagree with you.

The SJW thing is a big deal because SJW bullying tactics have been effective for many years now in America, and we are losing good and beautiful things on account of them!

Quote from: Alathon;841018The SJW thing is a big deal because SJW bullying tactics have been effective for many years now in America, and we are losing good and beautiful things on account of them!

What a bunch of maroons! I guess I missed their protests over the Japanese appropriation of America's favorite pastime, baseball. :rolleyes:

I'm surprised they haven't gone after nerd's loves for katanas.

All of this SJ stuff reminds me of my daughter telling me that many boys at school were pretending to be gay, only because it was seen as a fashionable thing, not because they were.

So my question is: how old is the author of this useless call for crusade?

Quote from: Turanil;841073All of this SJ stuff reminds me of my daughter telling me that many boys at school were pretending to be gay, only because it was seen as a fashionable thing, not because they were.

So my question is: how old is the author of this useless call for crusade?

Old enough to know better, but privileged enough not to care.

Quote from: Old Geezer;840259The truth lies somewhere between "LIVE FREE OR DIE" and "FAMOUS POTATOES."

Man, I miss George Carlin more and more.  We need him now more than ever.

See, it's funny, because I do know exactly what they're talking about.  I played 40K for a number of years, and our club (of 20 or so) was exclusively male, and there were three members who were INCREDIBLY good at keeping it that way.  Now one of those was just good at creeping people in general (if you told me he was a convicted serial killer, I wouldn't be surprised)  and the other two were sweaty balls of asshole, but they all spent special effort on creeping on women.  

The thing is though, I don't see a crusade to fix it being at all useful.  The club was dying even when I left, and I'd be surprised if there's more than 10 members now.  Wargames are just not doing well in general.  If you want a new club without the assholes, you have to build one, because kicking the assholes out would just collapse what's left of the hobby.  

(I mean it doesn't help Games Workshop is the largest wargame company, and remains confused as to what a female is and why such a thing might belong in the category 'target market', but the failings of Games Workshop are too long to list in any sensible manner)

I think you're mistaking limited personal experience with universal truth.

Quote from: Momotaro;840145Anecdotally, wargames shows are VERY family friendly these days - I'm seeing a lot more mum+dad+kids than ten or fifteen years ago.

And why the fuck do you think that is, the result of climate change or chemtrails?

No, it's because a lot of folks have put in a lot of effort over the past few decades in trying to widen the appeal of these hobbies, so it isn't just smelly neckbeards and spotty teenage horndogs. Wargaming still has a ways to go, but the most egregious stuff is mostly gone now, thank God.

Quote from: SnowyThey went after comic books, after that athiests, after that video games, they move on to metal, and now onto wargaming. They are not going to stop unless they destroy these hobbies, or we give them the fucking boot to the ass.

You mean, aside from the fact that all these hobbies are now more popular than they have ever been?  (Even wargaming, if you allow for the cross-over hobbies).

They are much more welcoming nowadays, without have destroyed what made them popular in the first place (good writing, good art, good escapism or commentary).


And yes, there are plenty of examples of patronizing idiocy from the crusaders.

Quote from: Motorskills;846255And why the fuck do you think that is, the result of climate change or chemtrails?

No, it's because a lot of folks have put in a lot of effort over the past few decades in trying to widen the appeal of these hobbies, so it isn't just smelly neckbeards and spotty teenage horndogs. Wargaming still has a ways to go, but the most egregious stuff is mostly gone now, thank God.

Gee, must have missed the great crusade.  

How about this - GW gamers grew up and had their own kids.  Maybe they just wanted better fucking catering and toilets?  Maybe when we go online and complain about dingy shows and poor facilities, the organisers have to listen now?

I think the Whites (Mr and Mrs Hasslefree Minis) have always brought their kids to help out on the stand.

There seems to be this... bollocks... going round that in the Bad Old Days, gaming was the preserve of some sub-race of stinking orcs.  Again anecdotally, I've come across a few oddballs and smellies (and some downright weirdos) but the majority of gamers I've encountered have been perfectly normal folks.

Quote from: Momotaro;846312Gee, must have missed the great crusade.  

How about this - GW gamers grew up and had their own kids.  Maybe they just wanted better fucking catering and toilets?  Maybe when we go online and complain about dingy shows and poor facilities, the organisers have to listen now?

I think the Whites (Mr and Mrs Hasslefree Minis) have always brought their kids to help out on the stand.

There seems to be this... bollocks... going round that in the Bad Old Days, gaming was the preserve of some sub-race of stinking orcs.  Again anecdotally, I've come across a few oddballs and smellies (and some downright weirdos) but the majority of gamers I've encountered have been perfectly normal folks.

Well the great crusade (wot?) was probably helped by two things. Molding technology brought prices down, so they gradually became more like commodity items, secondly Games Workshop came into being, which was marketed at a younger demographic from the get go.

Quote from: Motorskills;846318econdly Games Workshop came into being, which was marketed at a younger demographic from the get go.

No it wasnt.

GW was aimed at a younger demographic starting in the 90s, with the 4th edition of the fantasy game and 2nd iteration of the 40K game. Originally it was very much aimed at the middle aged wargame crowd, and one can easily tell this by the way the games were significantly altered to remove objectional material, the rules simplified and options removed, and the massive in-jokes that only older players would get replaced with "all-serious all-the-time" grimdark to appeal to adolescents that still took themselves very very seriously.