Board games

[jan paparazzi]

You seem to be defaulting 4X games to being Eurogames. 4X games, however, predate the Eurogame movement, feature lots of simulation-based mechanics, and generally feature the "token extravaganza" that's deemed characteristic of "Ameritrash" games.

Which game on that list isn't a eurogame then? You could discuss Eclipse being 4x, but imo it's a eurogame in disguise. Agricola, Caverna, Le Havre, Terra Mystica and Burgundy are 100% eurogames. Power Grid is a train game, but I consider that a bit euro as well. Through the Ages might not be a euro, but 4x. So you might be right about that one.

[Justin Alexander]

You could discuss Eclipse being 4x

In much the same way that we could discuss Interstellar being a science fiction movie.

But, yes, the two 4X games on your list are the games I was talking about when I said that you were misclassifying 4X games as eurogames.

[Doctor Jest]

You seem to be defaulting 4X games to being Eurogames. 4X games, however, predate the Eurogame movement, feature lots of simulation-based mechanics, and generally feature the "token extravaganza" that's deemed characteristic of "Ameritrash" games.

The earliest 4x game I can think of was Stellar Conquest from Avalon Hill in 1975. I used to have that game. While things have changed over the years in that genre in board games, I can definitely see Eclipse as being a descendant of SC and decidedly not "Euro".

[jan paparazzi]

The earliest 4x game I can think of was Stellar Conquest from Avalon Hill in 1975. I used to have that game. While things have changed over the years in that genre in board games, I can definitely see Eclipse as being a descendant of SC and decidedly not "Euro".

The Dice Tower guys think Eclipse is a euro and not space opera. Sam hates it and he loves Third Emperium and Exodus Proxima Centauri. He even said about Empires of the Void "This is the game Eclipse wishes it was.". I can't help it. I just love a good troll.

[Rincewind1]

The Dice Tower guys think Eclipse is a euro and not space opera. Sam hates it and he loves Third Emperium and Exodus Proxima Centauri. He even said about Empires of the Void "This is the game Eclipse wishes it was.". I can't help it. I just love a good troll.

They're wrong then. Eclipse draws heavily from Eurogames, but it's definitely not one - too random, too focused on combat and politics for one.

I am a huge board gamer - I've played a few hundreds of board games certainly. My favourites tend to draw more towards strategies with good inter - player interactions, though I also greatly enjoy operational games (recently mostly ACW due to my friends' influence). I think my top five'd be Twilight Imperium, Twilight Struggle (where I very much digress with Opa's opinion on it - it's a game where you need to learn that your hand's not your friend, it's your enemy you need to know how to handle), Here I Stand, Runewars and from Eurogames, Power Grid.

I've sadly soured on Arkham Horror and Labirynth (I have about 20+ games under my belt on both accounts, to be fair) - Labirynth for me suffers from what Opa believes TS suffers, the cards are just too unbalanced (Osama Bin Laden played against US in first turn basically means game over in 1st scenario). The asymmetric gameplay was a fun experiment however, even if ultimately I found it too quirky. Arkham Horror is just too bland - underneath all the polish and pieces, is a game with very little actual cooperation, like a bit better Talisman. Good game if you're drinking and talking, bad one if you've met to play challenging board games, I find. And don't get me started on the problems of add - ons. I've never seen a game where, if you have 2 additional boards, both see any major or even minor action.

As for the Ameritrash vs Eurogames discussion - the original term Ameritrash as I've seen was mostly to refer to games where the mechanics are actually definitely poor, and the game makes up for that with huge amounts of "flashy bits", such as figures, cards, illustrations, chits, etc. etc. It might've been hijacked by Eurogames elitists, but I've definitely never used it in such a context as to describe, say, Last Chance for Victory.

If anyone'd ever like a round of Here I Stand via Vassal (or other such large, time - consuming strategies, heh), give me a shout. The problem with such epic games is the time consumed - last time I played HiS, we spent 9 hours, and we'd have to call the game a draw if the Pope didn't win the last - round victory thanks to Copernicus and some other card combo. You know you're in the deep end when Twilight Imperium is a shorter game (which is basically 2 - 3 hours + 1 hour * number of players).

[Sacrosanct]

Surprised no one has mentioned my favorite: original Axis and Allies.
Honorable mentions include Enchanted Forest (great with kids), Lords of Waterdeep, Heroquest, and The Farming Game.

[Shipyard Locked]

I've sadly soured on Arkham Horror and Labirynth (I have about 20+ games under my belt on both accounts, to be fair)

Sounds like a good return on investment for most board games. I'd be sour if I "figured out" a game by the 5th-7th play.

[jan paparazzi]

Surprised no one has mentioned my favorite: original Axis and Allies.
Honorable mentions include Enchanted Forest (great with kids), Lords of Waterdeep, Heroquest, and The Farming Game.

Played that one. Axis and Allies. Fun, but huge amounts of downtime. Does this game still counts as a wargame? I see people excluding A&A and Risk as well on top 10 lists of wargames. If it isn't a wargame, then what is it?

[Doctor Jest]

Played that one. Axis and Allies. Fun, but huge amounts of downtime. Does this game still counts as a wargame? I see people excluding A&A and Risk as well on top 10 lists of wargames. If it isn't a wargame, then what is it?

Time I'll never get back.

Seriously... They're properly Area Control and Area Influence games with a military theme (stronger in A&A than Risk, you can re-skin Risk as anything).

[Rincewind1]

Sounds like a good return on investment for most board games. I'd be sour if I "figured out" a game by the 5th-7th play.

Well, to be fair, most of those Arkham games were over literal beer and pretzels (and vodka. Lots and lots of vodka). And, more importantly - I never played Arkham more than 2 - 3 times without a new expansion, so it's a game I find much dependant on expansion life support.

[Doctor Jest]

Which game on that list isn't a eurogame then? You could discuss Eclipse being 4x, but imo it's a eurogame in disguise.

Eclipse has a strong theme, variable player powers, high player interaction and player elimination. All of those things are antithetical to Eurogames. If you had to make a list of things that were definitely not Eurogames, all three would be on that.

[Doctor Jest]

They're wrong then. Eclipse draws heavily from Eurogames, but it's definitely not one - too random, too focused on combat and politics for one.

Exactly. Strong theme, high player interaction, variable player powers, player elimination: those are about as antithetical to the Euro design ethos as you can get.

It might've been hijacked by Eurogames elitists, but I've definitely never used it in such a context as to describe, say, Last Chance for Victory.

Indirectly it was here: http://opportunityfire.com/index.php/2014/02/07/first-take-on-last-chance/
"it has none of that trendy, post-Ameritrash bling"

And Fortress: Ameritrash seems to like it. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=163011548113&story_fbid=10151689287703114

Today it generally means "strongly thematic games" http://islaythedragon.com/guides/guide-to-gaming-ameritrash-vs-eurostyle-whats-the-difference/

[ArrozConLeche]

Alright, I know which one I want for Xmas:

1st & Goal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TknEBEak-0

You can't get more American than this.

[Rincewind1]

Indirectly it was here: http://opportunityfire.com/index.php/2014/02/07/first-take-on-last-chance/
"it has none of that trendy, post-Ameritrash bling"

And Fortress: Ameritrash seems to like it. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=163011548113&story_fbid=10151689287703114

Today it generally means "strongly thematic games" http://islaythedragon.com/guides/guide-to-gaming-ameritrash-vs-eurostyle-whats-the-difference/

Well that's plain silly, but I guess the terms change and I can but accept it (harbouring perhaps some bitter resentment over just how much actual meaning is lost when you start to place such a diverse group as board games into two camps) - I'd have never even thought to put LCV into the Ameritrash vs Eurogames debate. It's just a wargame (or rather - a very good one, I quite recommend - so far my score is 1:1, losing a skirmish of Iron Brigade with Hill's forces pushing, but managing to hold Barlow's position in the north).

[JongWK]

A few I like, that haven't been mentioned in this thread so far:

History of the World
Avalon
Shadows over Camelot
Bohnanza
Memoir '44
Marvel Legendary
Castles of Burgundy
Yedo
Ticket to Ride
Love Letter
Eminent Domain
Trajan